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Talk:Macedonian nationalism/Archive 2

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Latest comment: 19 years ago by Asenizator in topic New Beginning
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Archive 1 (124 kb)

Folklore

Latest comment: 19 years ago17 comments2 people in discussion

I have a comment about this claim: "Claim 2 It is indisputable that in the Macedonian ethnogenesis, Slavic component is very significant. However according to Macedonian Slav authors, there is rich oral tradition mentioning Justinian I (Shapkarev 1889, p. 154) , Alexander the Great , Phillip II, even Karanus of Macedon founder of Macedon 8th century BC (Miladinov, #8). There are no tales about Bulgarian tsars on the other hand, including Tsar Samuil. This does not explain why overwhelming number of the intelectuals in 19th century were linking the origin of Macedonian people with Ancient Macedonians. This was confirmed with the proclamation of Kresna Uprising".

I’ll talk not only about folk tales but about folklore as a whole because almost every themes in the folk songs exists in the folktales and this is a connected matter.

1. There are folklore sources from Macedonia about bulgarian rullers. See song N 57 – King Shishman, king Latim and shepherd Tabarina in "Bulgarian Folk songs" of Miladinov Brothers .

  1. There are legends about tsar Samuel in Macedonia and in Bulgaria. Often it is a legends about some fortresses, origin of names etc.
I knew there was something about Samuel and I was going to change that once I found a source. I know for example legends about lakes connected about Samuel. I did not put Samuels stuff there but FF. As for the others? From which city comes the story about Shishman? As for the others if we want to do some compassion, songs about Serbian Prince Marko are much more than king Latim (who is this guy?) and others.--Cigor 12:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
As I wrote, the song about king Sishman is from "Bulgarian folk songs" of Miladinov Brothers - N 57. It is not mentioned there the place of origin, but its dialect is macedonian and this song is from Macedonia. (There are one more song about Sishman in this book, but it is from the other part from Bulgarian lands). (I made a misprint - the real name of the king Latim is Latin). As for King Marko his image proves that we can make any ethical conclusions on the base of folklore heroes.
Again, who is this king Latin/Latim? When and where did he ruled? --Cigor 18:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

2. The figure of Alexander the Greet is presented not only in the folklore in Macedonia – from Bulgaria to the Middle East and this presence has not ethnical value. This is the image of Iskender (Iskander) from the poetry of Firdousi end eastern legends. There are a books (trenslations) about Alexander in the period if the Bulgarian national Revival which authots and readers was not from Macedonia, but nobody claims that this proves their "macedonian" consciousness or origin.

Sure, Alexander is present elsewhere, but how about Karanus of Macedon? How many other places have a collective memory of something that happened 28 centuries ago? Or anybody before Alexander for that matter? --Cigor 12:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
What that means? Maybe there was one (or much more) example for "a collective memory of something that happened 28 centuries ago". And? Only desandents of Karanus can have memory about him? Let remember again Alexander the Great.
Well, the Bulgarians are pushing the theory that Macedonia was depopulated by the 7th century and that Kuber came and settled with Bulgars. That the Slavs at that time were way south, all the way to Morea. If this is true, from where does stories about Karanus came? Pozdrav, Ohrigjanecu. --Cigor 18:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

3. The folklore is a disputable source about the selfconsciousness, but the folklore from Macedonia shows Bulgarian consciousness: - Folk tale from Kukush (Aegean Macedonia) that regards local christian people like Bulgarian (an example with hero Bolen Doichin and his people) – Български юнашки епос, С. 1971, Сборник за народни умотворения, наука и книжнина, книга LІІІ, С. 1971, с. 815 (legend N 189)

- Bulgarian Folk songs of Miladinov Brothers – N 356 (p.401) Veliko, pretty Bulgarian woman, Song N 474 (p.448) ….

- Folk song from Zubovci, Polog, Rebublic of Macedonia – in Арнаудов, Михаил. Народни песни от Горни и Долни Полог, в: Михаил Арнаудов Една научна командировка в Македония, София 1999, с154, N 47 – presented the local people like Bulgarians (the song is wroten in 1916)

All these examples are exceptions and the song written in 1916, well what can I say. --Cigor 12:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Maybe my English is not very good. This is a folk song which was collected (запишана) in 1916 from 80-old people from Zubuvci. Before 1916 this song was a part from the oral tradition. As for "exceptions" I can seek for more, but in this moment I think that they are too much: two songs from Miladinov Brothers, one song from Polog, a legend from Kukush. If you or somebody states that the folklore is an prove about ethical consciousness, I have to ask which consciousness? Regional Macedonian? Ethical Bulgarian? Ethnical Macedonian? Serbian? Greek?

So, for me this claim ia very disputable and is based on intrue arguments. --AKeckarov 12:04, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You may think so. The claim doesn't offer any absolute truth,but it's there, and it is not a lie. How much weight is anybody going to give to this claim, it is up to an individual reader.--Cigor 12:36, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

What means "absolute thruth"? The claim state something untrue. The folklore sources (oral tradition) mention Bulgarian rullers. The claim states contrariwise. What we have to do? --AKeckarov 12:45, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

OK, from which city is the song about Shishman? I am asking this because during his reign (there are more than one, but I think the song is about Ivan Sh.) Macedonia was not under Bulgaria. --Cigor 12:52, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

As for the song about Sishman (I am agree that maybe it is Ivan Sishman), see above. I can not understand the point of the question about the Bulgarian territory during the reign of Sishman. There are many herores in the songs and legends who never stеp in the relevant region.--AKeckarov 13:35, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It is important, because at that time Ivan Shisman state was a principality around V. Trnovo. He is considered the last Bulgarian tsar and his demise is shown in the folklore around Bulgaria as a blow to Christianity. Similarly, I know at least two Bulgarian folk songs about the last Byzantine emperor, or several about the Kosovo Battle. So it is not that much about the actual people (as they could not rule over the territories where these songs originated) but it is more symbolic – the tragedies that led to Turkish slavery. Like it or not Anton, the folklore in Macedonia has no memory of Bulgarian tsars that actually ruled over Macedonia. --Cigor 15:30, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting: First state was that there was not memory about Bulgarian rullers, now the same state is about "Bulgarian tsars that actually ruled over Macedonia". OK, from which place is the legend about Karanus? From Vergina? (And please, quote precisely your source about Karanus' legend)

And what about Samuil? He rulled over Macedonia.

I'll add one more source about folk tradition in Middle Ages: Bulgarian apocrypha originating from Macedonia - The Solun legend (there are two opinions about its chronology - ХІІ century (D.Petkanova) or ХVІ century(B.Angelov) [[1]]. There is information about Bulgarian princes from Preslav. (And about Bulgarians around Bregalnica river and in Solun etc).--AKeckarov 18:41, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

You can read about the story mentioned in Miladinovci #8. You can also read the same story in Sbornik na narodni umotvorenija, nauka I knizina – Sophia 1889, 4, pa 154. Is that enough detailed reference, Ohrigjanec? The city is Voden. And while we at Karan you can read song about him in another prerodbenik Isaija Mazovski work, “Spomeni” Sophia 1922. How about “Citalishte” published March/25/1870,Carigrad Stefan Zahariev in the text “Makedonsko piruvanje”, writes about Karan, the first Macedonian king…
I am still waiting for explanation who is this mysterious Bulgarian king Latin. I’ve never heard of him.
As for Samuil, I told you, FunkyFly put that. I would love to find a song about him – that would just prove the point why are we claiming him, among other things.
Once I find some spare time, I will expand massively each section and all the negators will wish the article to be deleted, but now it is too late for that. So zdravje, Ohrigjanec.--Cigor 20:07, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I asked you about Karan, because i did not find this legend (song) like N 8 in "Bulgarian folk songs" of Miladinov Brothers. Maybe I did not seek very carefuly or maybe you did not quote precisely. As for “Citalishte” published March/25/1870,Carigrad Stefan Zahariev in the text “Makedonsko piruvanje”, do you sure that this is a folklore source?

If you back, you'll see that I've never wrote that Latin is Bulgarian ruller. The Bulgarian ruller is Sishman. The name of the song is "King Shishman, king Latin and shepherd Tabarina" and this song is a prove that there are Bulgarian rullers (Sishman) in the folkore in Macedonia. Nothing more.

Do you think that the example with Solun legend shows something?--AKeckarov 18:10, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Karan, Ohrigjanec, I am trying to find a copy of the book to get you a scan, but without success. You know, it is unbelievable, there are many pages ABOUT the book (especially its cover), but there isn’t any regarding its content. There is something radically wrong about Bulgarians and Macedonians – such energy spent on unnecessary stuff. Anyway, the song is to be found at Sbornik na makedonski I bugarski pesmi od 1909 – 1910, page 68 (Mihajlo Georgievski: Slovenski rakopisi vo Makedonija, cit. delo, str. 161-173). However until I find this book and get you a scan, I can replace the reference with Isaja Mazhovski. He describes an event that occurred in the village Sosalija in 1867, where old people were singing several songs about Karan.
As for Shishman, he is considered as martyr of Christian faith, [2] in a similar fashion you can find songs about Constantine XI even though this emperor rule was constrained by Walls of Constantinople. So if you want, you can put Shishman reference in the article but than we have to put he never ruled Macedonia.
As for Solun legend, there is entire section , Claim 6 that deals with the name Bulgarian. If you go the archive of this Talk page, I talk about it’s meaning which can not be tied to modern Bulgarians only. Pozdrav --Cigor 14:01, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

I do not doubt of the fact that there are some folklore sources about Karan. I have a book of Miladinov Brothers and I just want to see the song (legend) in it. Therefore I asked for more precisely quotation. I am thinking about text about bulgarian selfdesciption in the folklore sources from Macedonia. Regards,--AKeckarov 17:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

AKeckarov, maybe you can help me. Is there any Bulgarian site with folk tales? This has nothing to do with Wikipedia. Thanks. --Cigor 17:43, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Dear God

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This article is a disaster by any standards! I'll try to find time to explain why these days. Regards. --FlavrSavr 03:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)


This article needs A LOT OF WORK

But lets start and correct it, step by step.

Correction of the Claim 1

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The text was:

The Slav-speaking inhabitants of the contemporary region of Macedonia constitute a separate ethnic group (regardless of their self-determination). In other words, ethnicity is prescribed on a regional basis, rather than being self-expressed

The truth is quite the opposite. Self-determination has always been one of the crucial principles of the Macedonian National Movement. It was understood from the earliest phase that Macedonia is inhabited with various ethnicities, and Macedonians, as the native majority, should do whatever is needed to protect the ethnic minorities of Macedonia.

As an example, lets take a look at the Kresna Uprising Proclamation from 1878. This is, without any doubt, one of the most mature document produced by the Macedonian National Movement.

In the third article it is clearly stated that Macedonia is inhabited with various nationalities and faiths:

Article 3: All residents of Macedonia, regardless of nationality or faith, can take part in the uprising - but they must love freedom.

Article 15 names the various nationalities, and implies that the list is not definite:

Article 15: Any Christian, Muslim, Macedonian, Turk, Albanian, Vlach, or anyone else who acts contrary to the uprising and/or the Rebels will be prosecuted and punished.

Article 156 puts all religions and nationalitis in equal legal position under Macedonian civil rule.

Article 156: It is strictly forbidden to spread hatred based on religion. It is forbidden to make distinctions among the nationalities because all are equal citizens and all are under the protection of the laws of Macedonian civil rule.

Articles 162-178 regulate the rule in the multi-ethnic and multi-convessional villages and areas.

Articles 186-190 regulated the relations between the Macedonians and Bulgarian Principality (as a foreign country).

Similar articles exist for the Serbian and Greek kingdoms.

The modern Macedonain constitution makes a clear distinction between Macedonians, and the other slavic speaking ethnicities that live in Macedonia. In all censuses Serbs, Bosniaks, Croats, Slovenes, Montenegrins and Bulgarians (all slavic speaking nations) were counted as separate ethnicities.

Hence to say: ethnicity is prescribed on a regional basis, rather than being self-expressed is completely inappropriate. Exactly the opposite is the case.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Filip_M (talk • contribs) .

And how about the statute of SMARO, where a member can be "any Macedonian or Adrianopolian"? You claim that Adrionopolians formed a separate ethnic group then?   /FunkyFly.talk_  02:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Not respecting self-determination

Latest comment: 19 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Ok, lets talk about the following statement (that you insist is correct):

The Slav-speaking inhabitants of the contemporary region of Macedonia constitute a separate ethnic group (regardless of their self-determination). In other words, ethnicity is prescribed on a regional basis, rather than being self-expressed.

Why do you think we disregard the self-determination of anyone, including the Slav-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia that identify themselves as something else, and not Macedonians? We don't! In Republic of Macedonia there are thousands of Slav-speaking citizens that self-identify themselves as Serbs, or Bulgarians, or Bosniaks, or Croats, or Montenegrins. We know and we completely accept their free choice of self-determination. The number of Serbs, according to the last census was 40 000, the number of Bosniaks around 20 000, the number of Bulgarians 1653, etc.

The statement: ethnicity is prescribed on a regional bases, rather than being self-expressed is also untrue. Actually R. Macedonia is one of the few Balkan countries that fully recognizes all ethnicities that live in it. It does not purposely confuse the citizenship, with the ethnicity, as some other countries do, and then they claim that they are 98% ethnically homogenous. --Filip M 03:19, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Ethicity is prescribed on a regional basis in neighboring Albania, Greece and Bulgaria, where over a million Republicans supposedly exist, and where recent censi have recorded a couple of tens of thousands at best.   /FunkyFly.talk_  02:10, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
We don't! In Republic of Macedonia there are thousands of Slav-speaking citizens that self-identify themselves as Serbs, or Bulgarians, or Bosniaks, or Croats, or Montenegrins. So does the Republican government (that lost the elections) recognize the censi in Bulgaria and Greece?   /FunkyFly.talk_  02:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Claim6

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Removed most of the section because this is not an article about the history of Macedonia. The claim is very specific.   /FunkyFly.talk_  02:25, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


Original research

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Ok FF, let's hear why have you butchered entire section even though it's packed with references. --Cigor 03:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

How not to write an article

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

This won't be an exhaustive list: 1. Tag team reverting is way out, 2. not discussing controversial reversions on the talk page is way out.

I protected the article because of this lovely revert war that was going on. Please, please, please get mediation, I'd offer to mediate, but seeing as you all think I'm Macedonian there is not much point. Please see WP:MEDCAB and WP:MEDCOM. - FrancisTyers · 22:51, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Mediaton accepted

Latest comment: 19 years ago35 comments7 people in discussion

I have filed a mediation request here, and Тhe prophet wizard of the crayon cake was brave enough to accept it. I hope everybody agrees we should start talking now. --FlavrSavr 00:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


Before we begin. I want everyone to know that I am totally indifferent on the out-come of this dispute. You have no idea how much I don't care about this topic :) . I'm totally neutral on the issue. If you're curious of my nationality (for some reason), I hail from the United States... but I hold my own opinions that are totally separate from my nation's government. I'm something of a free thinker.

So, just after a quick scan of everything, here's the main points I think we need to work on first:

  • We need to focus a little more on the article itself, rather than other editors. Let's ease the pressure off each other a tad and work on making the article a kick ass one that shows everyone's side of the story.
  • Less focus on the opinion of an entire nation. It's awfully hard to categorize the collective opinions of thousands of people... the "Bulgarian opinion" or the "Greek opinion"... so let's stick to specific sources and what they claim.
  • I think the reason the article appesrs POV isn't so much the viewpoints... but rather the way the viewpoints are expressed, and the overall layout and style. Each "claim" speaks as though it is absolute truth, which really isn't the way Wikipedia displays information.
  • Meh, the whole thing's a mess... but I'm an optimist. :)

So... I'll let you guys discuss, and I'll just listen... since I am, after all, completely uninvoled. I hold no authority, or decision-making power... I'm just here to guide you along smoothly so we can get stuff done. Thanks for understanding, and have fun slitting each other's throats. ^_^ --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 01:13, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually, my concerns stem from the fact that an anon sockpuppet of a blocked user (Cigor) has been deleting my recent additions of text (221 words) without explaining why. --Tēlex 09:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Also, if you actually expect Cigor and his sockpuppets to discuss, don't hold your breath. --Tēlex 09:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Stop being such a negative nancy :) - FrancisTyers · 09:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
No, seriously; he evaded his block to revert, let's see if he'll evade it to discuss. --Tēlex 09:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
[removed unhelpful, sarcastic comment - FrancisTyers · 13:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)]
Regarding the talk page I have never, ever avoided discussion.
Anyway, I would like to thank the Wizard for taking this task!
So my first question would be repeated one: Why was my text deleted? Almost every statement there is backed with reference. Each statement adds value in my opinion, especially in this article which was started as an attack page where being a Macedonian is not treated as an ethnic/nation designation, but rather ideological designation, like being a communist or fascist. --Cigor 13:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't care about your text (I even added to the criticism section some "response" to your addition - this is an indication of acceptance). The question is, why was my text deleted? IMO "Macedonism" = Macedonian nationalism (just like Bosniak nationalism, Croatian nationalism and Irish nationalism). I would oppose the title 'Macedonian nationalism', as Macedonians are only less than half of the Macedonians - the largest group being these Macedonians. It would be like moving Bosniak nationalism to Bosnian nationalism, and we know that there are similar ambiguities surrounding the term Bosnians. As for the IP, yes, Cigor, I believe it was you. Whether you used a public library, a proxy server or any other method, it was quite obviously you. --Tēlex 13:27, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Where did I delete your text? I was reverting what FF did, which was massive deletion of my text (about two pages in MS Word) without explanation. As for the IP, think what you want, but I never left Houston, TX all this time. [removed unhelpful comment. - FrancisTyers · 13:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)] --Cigor 13:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Portions of "your" text was deleted because it did not answer the claim, rather for the most part quoting from different places and tying those quotes into conclusions which none of the books actually supports, this is Original research.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:12, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


First, it was not "portions". It was entire section. Second, almost all sentences are backed by reference by some non-Macedonian (mostly Western historians). Most of these books can be easily found in local libraries or Internet. If you have a problem with any of those statement you find the reference, you read the book, (or at least few pages around the reference), you state your opinion why is inaccurate or irrelevant, you wait for feedback and then you delete two pages of text. Did you look at any of those books, FunkyFly? And for the record, I am not finished with that section and I plan to expand it. --Cigor 22:20, 8 July 2006 (UTC)


Also Telex explain this to me: How can I have been blocked 3 times if I had the abbility of proxy server, public library and what not? --Cigor 13:44, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
You have been blocked 3 times for violating 3RR, not for suckpuppeting. Check user might be initiated against you if enough evidence is collected.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:14, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

And Francis, how come he can repeaditly accuse me that I am sockpuppeting, and I can't answer to that?--Cigor 13:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Drop it. I would recommend you rescind your posts. - FrancisTyers · 13:47, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Ok, lets all calm down and think as adults. Thank you for the accepted mediation. Lets try to make this article accurate and informative. There are two basic problems that are blocking us now:

  • First, the movement is presented as a political ideology, and not as a national (or nationalist) movement, although the whole article clearly reveals that the movement is exactly that: a national movement, so typical for the 19 century.
  • Second, it is presented as an invention of one man, serbian politician Stojan Novakovich, and its emergence is located in 1887. We have a clear proof that the movement was much older, from the early 1860-ties, and it was authochtonous The Macedonian question article..

Lets first see how we can agree on these two basic issues. --Filip M 14:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Actually the article claims that the term "Macedonism" was coined by Novakovich (which is probably true - do you have any older references to the term "Macedonism" in this context?). It does not say he invented it. --Tēlex 14:05, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Telex, the above mentioned article The Macedonian question is from 1871. In this article the whole movement is described, defined and critiqued in detail. The participants in the movement are labeled as "Macedonists". In addition to that, the article claims that at that point of time (1871) the movement was at least 10 years old. So, when the movement started, Stojan Novakovich was probably still in diapers. In addition to this, in the reference that you added, Novakovic neither explain nor define the term, assuming that his audience was well aware of its meaning. --Filip M 14:43, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
"Macedonist" does not necessarily mean a supporter of "Macedonism". In Greece, the term "Macedonism" is rarely used (probably only by Kofos), although the people of FYROM are often called "Macedonists" (Makedonistes), which means someone who tries (or wants) to be Macedonian, but is not. Back to the point, if we don't know who or when it started (despite Cigor's sockpuppets' insistence), then don't mention it. As I've already said, in my opinion, this article should deal with Macedonian Slav nationalism, and their notorious historically dubious claims which appear nowhere in mainstream scholarship (the "historical" region of Macedonia, the only Greeks in Macedonia being the refugees from Turkey, the Macedonian Slavs being the descendents of Slavs and Ancient Macedonians, stolen Aegean Macedonia, no Bulgarians even being in all Macedonia, the "invisible" minorities, the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks etc... etc... ). Unlike in neighbouring countries (including Albania), there has not been so much historical revisionism. There are more websites devoted to spreading Macedonian Slav nationalist mythology than any other variety. It's a fascinating journey... even the websites linked to at www.maknews.com claiming to represent the Macedonians in Greece, Macedonians in Bulgaria and Macedonians in Albania (these minorities are an important aspect in Macedonian Slav nationalist mythology), are owned by people in Toronto, Canada!!! Run a whois check if you don't believe me. The lengths some people go to in order to create the illusion that their claims are true... Anyway, the bottom line is: if you don't know, don't address the issue. --Tēlex 15:35, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
The content of Slaveikov's article clearly shows what you are talking about :Macedonian Slav nationalism.--Cigor 16:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
About that document: you have to prove that: a) it's authentic, b) it's an accurate translation of an actually document, c) give the (user)name of the translator and the original text. --Tēlex 16:28, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
We can't talk like that. I do not ask the same thing from you. Slaveikov's letters are well known thing, and to my knowledge, no Bulgarian historians dispute them. I am not going to spend time to show that the document is: a) it's authentic, b) it's an accurate translation of an actually document, c) give the (user)name of the translator and the original text. Instead, if you think is not any of those 3 points, you will give us reference of some historian that thinks the document is a fake.--Cigor 16:34, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, you'll have to. Otherwise, what stops me from writing my own version of Thucydides' history, and putting it on wikisource, and claiming it's authentic. There is no evidence that that is the first reference to a 'Macedonist', and it is for you to prove that it is (by quoting a reliable secondary source who says it is). Anything else is WP:OR. --Tēlex 16:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, the original was published 18th January 1871 in the "Macedonia" newspaper in Constaninople, and it is now in Sophia. If there is a dispute of the document, FunkyFly can go (I beleive he lives there) to the archive and obtain a scan? --Cigor 16:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

(unindent) The Slaveykov article does exist. There is a user IP: 85.187.163.40 on WikiSource.org that confirmed that a copy of the newspaper exists in the w:SS. Cyril and Methodius National Library in Sofia, and he have seen and read the article. Almost entire article was reprinted in a recent bulgarian academic publication Петко Р. Славейков, "Съчинения", том 7 Публицистика, Издателство "Български писател", София, 1981, "Македонският въпрос", стр. 21-24 (In English: Petko R. Slaveikov, "Sychineniya" - "Works", volume 7 Publitsistika - Publicism, Publishing house "Bylgarski pisatel" - "Bulgarian writer", Sofia, 1981, "Makedonskiyat vypros" - "The Macedonian question", p. 21-24) I have post a request for a transcript of the original, since he claims that there are few mistakes in the translation, and there are three paragraphs missing. --Filip M 17:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

No boys. If it actually says it (and you believe it), then fine. I think it's WP:OR to say that it is the first (or one of the first) reference(s) to Macedonism, when we don't know when it was. It's much best to say - Macedonism was mentioned in the 1971 in such-and-such a newspaper, and it may be one of the earliest surviving references to it - or something similar. --Tēlex 17:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, that sounds fine, but a sentence such as: "Stojan Novakovich coined the term" is also totally WP:OR (no sources that he "coined the term", nor that he used it for the first time). Also, I think we should first focus on the opening paragraph and continue step by step, because our mediator might get confused. Telex, the whole problem lies that "Macedonism" is in itself, an ambigious term, and what is more important, it is a term almost exclusively used by Bulgarian (and to some extent Greek) historians. I'm surprised that you say that this article should be about Macedonian nationalism. The whole thing is a bit confusing. If we define (as in the article) "Macedonism" as extreme form of ethnic nationalism, according to which the Slavic-speaking population in Macedonia forms a separate ethnic group, possessing unique language and separate history, independent of the Bulgarian ethnic group, language and history respectively., then "Macedonism" has nothing to do with the claim that "the only Greeks in Macedonia are refugees from Turkey". If "Macedonism" = Macedonian nationalism, then those claims can be attributed to it, but then again, using "Macedonism" would be a contradiction, since this term is mostly used to actually deny a possibility for an autochtonous Macedonian nationalism in the 19th century. (as the instances of Macedonian nationalism are attributed to the Serbian propaganda) Also bear in mind than in certain circumstances nationalism is not necessary a negative phenomenon (for example Greek nationalism within the Ottoman Empire). --FlavrSavr 18:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Noone is denying the possibility for home grown nationalism in Macedonia as early as the middle of the 19th century, the quotes show that Macedonism was definitely a weapon in the hands of the Serbian propaganda, which greatly encouraged it. After all most of the population in the 19th century Macedonia considered themselves Bulgarian.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:18, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, OK, we'll speak about that later. Let's focus on the opening paragraph. --FlavrSavr 15:28, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for getting back on track there... for a while the conversation was swivelling away from thearticle, but now we're starting to focus on the article. Honestly the article as it stands is a total mess... it might be wise to delete entire sections and slowly reword the whole thing. Might be more efficient. Thanks for a least remaining somewhat calm. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 18:29, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

To FlavrSavr: I would define Macedonism as follows:

I appreciate that the above may be rather Greek-centric, as it does not address the Bulgarian concerns (e.g. claiming historical Bulgarian heroes as Macedonians etc), but the above is what in Greece is usually referred to as FYROM propaganda. I think it captures the idea: Macedonism is the form of nationalism whose key ideology is that there has been a continuous existence of a Macedonian ethnic group from ancient times to the present day with the Macedonian region being its national homeland. Some Macedonian nationalists in FYROM today may value their and promote their present-day distinctiveness, but accept that the Macedonian nation is largely the creation of Yugoslav socialism. I admit that the above may be rather POV and OR, but I don't know what things sound like at the other side of things. --Tēlex 18:40, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

BTW this could also be described as the key ideology of Macedonism. --Tēlex 18:50, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we could start by rewriting the intro? I have trouble understanding the intro as it is, so maybe it could be rewritten so that someone who is completely clueless about what Macedonianism is could easily follow it. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 18:51, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Just so you know, people usually put new posts at the bottom of the section. I had to sift through all of the conversation to find the newest posts made. Talk page guidelines recommend that talk pages follow a chronological order, to keep everything easy to follow. Thanks. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 17:51, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

To Telex

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion

I am looking now what have edited in the article and I have several remarks: Regarding Claim 1, I have never seen such statement that "Macedonian ethnic group is the only indigenous ethnic group to Macedonia" As for the Greek majority in Macedonia, allow me to quote several people: Von Knapich, the Austrian Consul in Salonika, reported in 1874 that the Greek population was limited exclusively to the Kasandra and Ayonoros districts, the old Chalcidice and the Peninsula opposite. The Austrian K. Gersin (1903) considered that Greek presence extended only as far as the River Bistrica and along the Chalcidice. The historian and long-time English diplomat at Constantinople, E. Pears, maintained the view that ‘away from the shore it is rare to find a purely Greek village except near the confines of Greece’.

Ottoman sources that you are quoting reflects church adherence not ethnic. European commentators of the period generally considered Greeks to number fewer than 250,000 people. In 1899 (German) K. Oestreich counted 200,000, and in the same year (Serbian) S. Gopcevic counted 201,140. In 1900 (Bulgarian) V. Kanchov counted 225,152 Greeks, while in 1903 (German) K. Peucker counted 240,000, and (Austrian) K. Gersin counted 228,702 in the same year. The Greek element in Macedonia constituted no more than 10 per cent of the total population in Macedonia. I also have many other references about Romanian-Greek conflict regarding their claims about Vlachs.

So I suggest you to remove your statement. The reason for that is , if it stays in the current form I will be forced to refute it. If that happen, the article will probably go in completelly different direction (other Greeks will refute my stuff, then I will theirs, and so on...) --Cigor 16:26, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're getting at. I didn't say Greeks were the majority (certainly not in the whole region as perceived by Macedonian Slav nationalists, Skopje etc...). I said that Greeks have been in Macedonia long before the 1920s (and long before the Slavs), contrary to the claims that the only Greeks in Macedonia are refugees from Turkey (makedonija.info, User:Macedonia etc). --Tēlex 16:33, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I am talking about this: [3]. OK, it not "majority", but largest population, my bad. Again, nobody claims that only Greeks in Macedonia are refugees from Turkey , other than some extremist. But than, the article confuses me: do you want to show the extremist or mainstream view?--Cigor 16:38, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I haven't a clue about the minutiae of what goes on in the minds of Macedonian Slav nationalists (or what's mainstream amongst them or not). I expect the ethnic composition was roughly as it appears in the ethnographic maps. Sources conflict - according to Greek sources, the 1941 census Axis carried out in the occupied Kingdom of Yugoslavia recorded approximately 100,000 Greeks. The "Greeks" in the Ottoman census may have been the Rumlar, although, no one knows or can know for sure. What is known is that the Rumlar (including the existing Slav element) were more sympathetic and supportive to the Greek struggle for Macedonia than to anyone else in the region (so Greeks view them as Greeks - this may have affected why Greece got the more than Bulgaria or Serbia) even though Macedonian Slavs are more likely to claim that the Greek/Rumi presence in Krushevo were not at all ethnic Greeks but Vlachs. E. Stanford (British) in 1877 claims that the region was predominantly Greek (he use the words "narrow kinship" with Gree), and the (rather obviously pro-Greek) Bianconi (French) claims the same. My point is that Macedonian Slav nationalists seem to claim that the only Greeks in Macedonia are the refugees from Turkey; this is not the case. Sometimes they even claim that Greece "renamed" northern Greece to Macedonia when FYROM became independent. Something equally not true: even now there is no formal administrative division in Greece called "Macedonia". The renaming was the renaming of the Ministry of Northern Greece to Ministry of Macedonia-Thrace, and this took place in August 1988. There was a newspaper called "MAKEDONIA" in the Greek languages that existed in Aegean Macedonia long before WWII. The claim that Greece tried to "eliminate" Macedonia, and only discovered it in the 1990s is simply not true. If you're interested, my source on what is Macedonian Slav nationalism is User:Risto Stefov's blog at www.maknews.com, and www.makedonija.info. --Tēlex 17:22, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Opening paragraph (opening section)

Latest comment: 19 years ago4 comments4 people in discussion

OK, Prophet is right, we should be more organized on this matter. Let's scan this article step by step and work out a NPOV version. I'm still a bit confused what "Macedonism" actually is, but from the things said, it's like some general term, a bag, where one can put all the perceived negative aspects of Macedonian nationalism. These are the points that should be made in the opening paragraph (the very first section), and as far as I've seen from the discussion, are not disputed:

  • Macedonism is a broad term
  • The term is mostly used in Bulgaria, and to some extent Greece (Kofos) [4]
  • General usage: Macedonism is used to describe the perceived negative aspects of Macedonian nationalism
  • Usage of the word in Bulgaria (more specific, claimed 19th century Serbian propaganda to dillute Bulgarian conciousness of the Macedonians, also "Macedonistic organizations")
  • Usage of the word in Greece (more general, tends to link the term with United Macedonia related subjects, Kofos)
  • In an extreme context, the word itself means that there is no authentic, but only an artificial Macedonian nationhood, an ideological mindset imposed by Yugoslav socialism (Macedonians = Bulgarian Macedonists) [5]
  • The term is chiefly a Balkan regionalism, rarely used in the English historiography

We can work out a NPOV opening with this points, possibly adding some more, and then continue with the first recorded usage, and different opinions about it. (Kofos sees it beginings in the 1990s, no?) --FlavrSavr 21:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

I would like to add few points to the FlavrSavr's excellent layout for the opening paragraph:

--Filip M 03:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I had a note to this before but it seems to have been removed, but the term is not found in the Oxford English Dictionary (full edition) either. - FrancisTyers · 07:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh ho! Collaborative effort? Sounds splendid, FlavrSavr! ^_^ --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 18:31, 10 July 2006 (UTC)


Fist attempt to formulate the opening paragraph

Latest comment: 19 years ago3 comments2 people in discussion

Macedonism (Bulgarian: Македонизъм, Macedonian and Serbian: Македонизам Greek:????) is a term mostly used in Bulgaria, and to some extent Greece (Kofos) to describe the perceived negative aspects of Macedonian Nationalal Movement. In Bulgaria this term is used primarily by the nationalists to describe the Macedonian National Movement as a political ideology, or a regional linguistic separatist movement. In Greece this term is used almost exclusively by Kofos in the context of United Macedonia related subjects. In an extreme context, the word itself means that there is no authentic, but only an artificial Macedonian nationhood, an ideological mindset imposed by Yugoslav socialism (Macedonians = Bulgarian Macedonists) [6].

The term is chiefly a Balkan regionalism, rarely used in the English historiography. It is not found neither in Enciclopedia Britanica nor in the Oxford English Dictionary.

In the article The Macedonian Question published on 18th January 1871 in the "Macedonia" newspaper in Constaninople by Petko Rachev Slaveikov, Makedonism was defined and critized, his adherants were named Macedonists, and this may be one of the earliest surviving references to it.

I think that the scope of this article should be pretty limited, since it is not found in major enciclopedias. Maybe these three short paragraphs, plus some external links and quotes.--Filip M 03:35, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Objections - it is used in the Republic of Macedonia as well, search for Srbinovski's works. There are no sources it is used in Bulgaria more frequently than in the Republic. Second, Slaveikov mentions Macedonists, not Macedonism.   /FunkyFly.talk_  05:15, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
Ok, I tried to address your second objection (note the changes in the third paragraph). As far as your first objection, you will need to give us a reference, so we can determine the context and the meaning. --Filip M 01:54, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Unprotecting

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

There has been no discussion on this in a week. I'm unprotecting to see if editing can proceed normally. --Tony Sidaway 08:13, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Reprotected. None of the disputes has been resolved. - FrancisTyers · 01:46, 20 July 2006 (UTC)


A quiet before the storm

Latest comment: 19 years ago13 comments5 people in discussion

So no one has said anything for a while.. is everyone dead?

I noticed as soon as the page was unprotected, there was an edit war... this won't produce results at all.

We all have to agree not to make changes or to revert changes until we have concensus. We can't leave this page protected forever. Thanks for understanding. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 02:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of the current contents of this article is out of place. There are other articles where this contents can be better placed, like United Macedonia. I think that this article should better focus on the use and meaning of the term Macedonism, and I think that the article should contain 3-4 paragraphs (like the ones proposed earlier in this discussion) plus some links and citations. --Filip M 12:02, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I dont agree on this one. It is a fairly well established concept and its implications are quite deep. As a matter of fact there are a couple of other claims that can also be added, including the claims of the Bulgarian Archbishopric of Ohrid.  /FunkyFly.talk_  23:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree. See Prophet, the problem is that mediation requires at least two sides and a mediator to mediate. At the moment, "our side" is the only one who engages in productive discussion, proposes text and all... It is to be expected that the "other side" should give some constructive feedback, to eventually come to a neutral version of the text. At the moment, FunkyFly simply reverted back to his version that includes a) unsourced statements (Stojan Novakovich) and b) removal of entirely sourced sections. I reverted back to the locked version until a solution is found, though I disagree with some of the formulations, especially the opening paragrhaph. --FlavrSavr 23:20, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
Sourced yet irrelevant..., anyway you deleted new additions to the article, without explanation. To answer in detail, about Novakovich, it is the first reference to the word Macedonism, not Macedonist, which is the name of the article in the first place. Macedonist has other meanings, including a linguist studying the Macedonian language, so comparison does not hold. Second, the sourced material that Cigor inserted for Claim 6 mostly deals with general history of the Republic of Macedonia and it is not specific to the claim. I have left 3 paragraphs from his text which directly answer the claim, the remaining ones are unrelated and it is original research to conclude that they support the claim. And last, "your side" erases passages inserted by me and Telex without explanation in the criticism of Claims 1,3 and 4   /FunkyFly.talk_  23:29, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
FF, the statements are not irrelevant as each address Claim 6. Other than giving a vague explanation (took you probably 30 seconds to write it and delete two pages of text) you have not explained the irrelevance of a single sentence there, not to mention the entire text. It seems to me that it is only you that is bothered by it. Telex seems not to mind. I have not deleted any of your text even though I don't agree with it and I expect of you to do the same unless you convince the majority here of the benefits of your deletion. --Cigor 17:26, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Really, check this revert of vandalism to see what you are not deleting.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:08, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
What about that? That is not even me! --Cigor 21:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes, yes, wash your hands.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll make this quick to save your eyes the needless reading. Please don't take this in a mean way.
  • There are no sides, only Wikipedians and an article they work on.
  • Why not ditch the majority of the article and start from scratch?

If everyone agrees to not revert each other without explaination, then I think we have our solution. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 04:34, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Explanation for reverts on my behalf were given up in the discussion, about a month ago.   /FunkyFly.talk_  04:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

I like the idea of starting from scratch. We can start with simple facts that are well established, and then only add those that can be verified. --Filip M 01:18, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Yup. Since everyone disagrees with the current articles setup, let's just tear down and build a new one based on compromise. Sounds cool to me. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 09:40, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Unprotecting the page and working on the article again

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

Ok... I'm going to get an admin to unprotect the article. Let's try this again, preferably using a technique like the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. If everyone stays cool, I think we can rebuild this article and make it informative and neutral. I believe we're at the point now where we need to start making changes and seeing where we can go with this. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 23:30, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Unprotected as per request. Thank you for using Wikipedia! ~Kylu (u|t) 23:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)


Lets start with the opening three paragraphs

Latest comment: 19 years ago10 comments3 people in discussion

I think we put this version on the discussion page, FunkyFly had few concerns, we addressed them, and we should start with this version:

Macedonism (Bulgarian: Македонизъм, Macedonian and Serbian: Македонизам) is a term mostly used in Bulgaria, and to some extent Greece (Kofos) to describe the perceived negative aspects of Macedonian Nationalal Movement. In Bulgaria this term is used primarily by the nationalists to describe the Macedonian National Movement as a political ideology, or a regional linguistic separatist movement. In Greece this term is used almost exclusively by Kofos in the context of United Macedonia related subjects. In an extreme context, the word itself means that there is no authentic, but only an artificial Macedonian nationhood, an ideological mindset imposed by Yugoslav socialism (Macedonians = Bulgarian Macedonists) [7].

The term is chiefly a Balkan regionalism, rarely used in the English historiography. It is not found neither in Enciclopedia Britanica nor in the Oxford English Dictionary.

In the article The Macedonian Question published on 18th January 1871 in the "Macedonia" newspaper in Constaninople by Petko Rachev Slaveikov, Makedonism was defined and critized, his adherants were named Macedonists, and this may be one of the earliest surviving references to it.

Please don't alter it without a previous discussion. --Filip M 14:32, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Hehe, OK. I though we had to discuss before you erase. Make your case first. The non Bulgarian nature of history, language and culture should stay, because that is what all those claims boil down to, that is what Macedonism is all about - a movement for differentiation from the Bulgarian ethnic group.   /FunkyFly.talk_  15:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
We did make our case. We made our case on this very page, and for 10 days it was open for discussion. You gave two remarks, and I responded to both. Macedonism is not ideology. It is bulgarians that perceive it as such. As far as the differentiation is concerned, Macedonians did differentiate from both Serbs and Bulgarians. Greeks too. That is a normal process of every ethnogenesys. --Filip M 17:47, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Funky, DO NOT change the page before we agree on this discussion page that a certain change is appropriate and neutral. --Filip M 17:52, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

You are making changes without discussion. Why did you erase:
  1. The idea presents itself as an extreme form of ethnic nationalism - in Bulgaria and Greece
  2. The term can also be used as an epithet by Bulgarians or their supporters against any Macedonians from the Republic of Macedonia seeking to downplay their connections with Bulgarians, or in some way exert claims of Macedonian heritage over certain groups of people outside the Republic of Macedonia - e.g. "macedonistic organization", "macedonistic orientation"
  3. The passage of Stoyan Novakovich - the first recorded use of the term. I compromised, you still revert.
  4. Macedonians = Bulgarian Macedonists) - totally arbitrary, not in the source. Not to mention it should be "ethnic Macedonians" at least   /FunkyFly.talk_  17:54, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


Let's try the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, which might work well in this situation. Someone boldly makes an edit, and if an editor doesn't like it, then that editor reverts that change made. At that point we discuss what was wrong with the original edit. It's important that we never revert a revert, as then we are basically declaring an edit war. Otherwise, one revert is ok. Does everyone agree with this? --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 18:22, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

We all have to agree not to make changes or to revert changes until we have concensus. Why do you change your mind now? Plus Filip M at least on words disagrees with you. At this point I accomodate most Filip M's changes in the text, and he performed two reverts already.   /FunkyFly.talk_  18:31, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'll try to address the four issues that FunkyFly expressed, and I'll make as little changes as possible in the article to address ONLY these issues.

  1. I don't have any problems with the term "an extreme form of ethnic nationalism". Lets try to incorporate it in this sentence:

In Bulgaria this term is used primarily by the nationalists to describe the Macedonian National Movement as a political ideology, an extreme form of ethnic nationalism or a regional linguistic separatist movement.

  1. This paragraph is fine, but it should stay as a fourt paragraph.
  2. Novakovic did not invent the term. He doesn't even try to define it, meaning that in his time the term was well known. We can only mention Novakovic, AFTER Slaveikov, who precizely defined and criticized the movement.
  3. You may be right on this one. Lets delete the text in the ( ). --Filip M 18:35, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

My formulation does not say Novakovich invented the term. Do you have an earlier source mentioning Macedonism? It is the first recorded usage, and he does define it, read the quote carefully. definite and wisely set boundaries, presentation of Macedonian dialect and Macedonian specifics - Macedonian specifics, to counter the prevalent Bulgarian tendencies.   /FunkyFly.talk_  18:39, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


Hmmm, on second thought... consensus before edit, as you suggested, might be a better idea than what I previously suggested. Even so, always be bold when editing, and don't hesitate to make changes. I'll stay out of content decisions, as I really don't know much about the topic, and I really have no say in the matter anyways. I'll stick to dousing out any conflicts that arise.So, if everyone is happy with that, continue with the content discussion. --The Prophet Wizard of the Crayon Cake 18:58, 24 July 2006 (UTC)


We are getting closer on the opening five paragraphs

Latest comment: 19 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

I think we are getting closer. I will not make any changes in this itteration, and I'll only raise five issues:

  1. The term is used in R. Macedonia only in historic context (19 century) and only in response to the opposition of the Movement. We need to clarify this.
  2. I've never seen a quote from Srbinovski and how he uses it. If we mention him by name, we need that quote. Alternatively, you might want to use Miodrag Drugovac instead of Srbinovski.
  3. Why do we need to say that Slaveikov "partly defined it"? What aspects of the movement he didn't define?
  4. The term has surely been defined before Novakovic used it in 1887. I'll try to find other references to it. Until I provide other references let it sit as is.
  5. In the quotes section, Slaveikov quote should come first, since it is the oldest.

Now the ball is in your court FunkyFly. --Filip M 20:15, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

1 and 2. Not true, Srbinovski [8]. 3. Lets erase "partly defined" then, since the movent has taken an irredentist turn since those days and it has acquired new meaning. 4. This source acknowledges Novakovich as the originator of the concept. 5. Go for it. 6. Should stay last in this article because he never mentioned the term. In the article Macedonist it could come first.   /FunkyFly.talk_  22:00, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

New Beginning

Latest comment: 19 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I suggest this as the beginnig of the article (it's not quite finished though), now the beginning is awful

Macedonism is a term mostly used in Bulgaria, and to some extent Greece (Kofos) and the Republic of Macedonia (Srbinovski). In Bulgaria this term is used primarily by historians and nationalists meaning two things – a political doctrine and an extreme form of ethnic Macedonian nationalism – an artificial product of the above mentioned doctrine. Macedonism as a doctrine states generally that Macedonians (the Slavic speaking population of Macedonia) are a separate nationality (as opposed to being a part of the Bulgarian people) – as the common negative/exclusion definition widely used by ethnic Macedonians goes – ‘we are neither Bulgarians, nor Serbs, nor Greeks‘. Early proponents of Macedonism as a doctrine are Mithad pasha, valiya (local governor) of Saloniki in the 1870s; Karl Hron – an Austrian journalist and spy; the Serbian scholars Stoyan Novakovich (the first to use Macedonism as a term) and Jovan Cvijch. The countries involved were just about the interested ones for the disputed region of Macedonia (the remaining being Bulgaria and Greece, which used the term ‘slavophone greeks’ and ‘added’ some history highlights which would later be readily used by adherents of Macedonism and ironically are in the base of the on-going name dispute between Greece and RoM). The Serbian efforts were the most lasting and Novakovich and Cvijch’s ideas found some support in certain Russian circles. The effects however of Macedonism on the local population were minimal though at the turn of the 20th century Kraste Misirkov (a Macedonian intellectual) wrote his famous/infamous ‘On the Macedonian matters’ which was largely a result of the Serbian commitment and mostly that of Novakovich himself. The Serbians were the first to revise history for political reasons in connection with Macedonism stating that the Samuil’s tzardom was not a continuation of the first Bulgarian tzardom but a separate Slavic entity (around the beginning of the 20th century). This together with some primitive statements of Serbian nationalists from the 19th century – as the one that the modern Bulgarians are of Turkic/Tartaric stock (as opposed to the pure Slavic Serbs and Macedonian Slavs) will later become a part of the “scientific” justification of Macedonism as nationalism in RoM. (The activities of these Serbian nationalists from the one hand and those of Mithad pasha on the other from the 1860s and 1870s are narrowly connected with the accounts in the much-debated Slaveykov’s letters and account for the two types of Macedonists mentioned there.) After WWI and the Bolshevik revolution the Soviet Union found Macedonism useful as a means to subdue nationalist movements and focus on proletarian ones concerning Macedonia. Through the Comintern Moscow imposed Macedonism on the Balkan communist parties (including a left wing faction of IMRO – IMRO united). This model was not new for the Bolsheviks – similar doctrines and ‘nation building’ occurred in Belarus and later in Moldova. An indicative sign of this time is the brochure ‘Why are we the Macedonians a separate nation’ by Vasil Ivanovski, member of the Bulgarian Communist Party (1934). The brochure is a blueprint of the Slavic variant of the history of ethnic Macedonians (as opposed to the Ancient Macedonian’s one, which is more popular nowadays). The phrasing and the harsh accusations towards Bulgarians and Bulgarian nationalism are almost identical to the ones during communist Yugoslavia times. The paper has many distortions and inconsistencies as describing Macedonian history and while stating that Samuil’s tzardom is a Slavic non-Bulgarian state, the author still finds it necessary to explain why Bulgarians and Macedonians did not form a common ethnicity during Ottoman rule – he states the main reasons are economical ones.


also i have another suggestion - the text under The adjective Bulgarian should be moved to a different subtitle (i am not ironic) - something like examples of macedonistic history distortions. the text is a rather poor compilation of not corresponding sources - e.g A.V. Amfiteatrov and H.G. Lunt opposed to L. Danforth and H.R. Wilkinson,. apart from this we have 'the common disease' - dismissal of important facts and conveying a different conclusions from part of the sources and most of the known facts. we can elaborate on this. --Asenizator 00:02, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

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