Talk:Great power

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 192.45.72.26 (talk) at 00:01, 24 August 2006. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Latest comment: 19 years ago by Xdamr in topic Criteria
WikiProject iconPower in international relations (inactive)
WikiProject iconThis article is within the scope of WikiProject Power in international relations, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.
For older discussion, see archives: 1 | 2



Denmark?

Denmark used to be listed as a former great power. During the Dutch Revolt Denmark became powerful, with economic growth. Denmark was also a major player in the 30 Years War. I think that Denmark should be put back on the list.Casey14 23:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Has this page matured

I remember the earlier, horribly Eurocentric versions. Great evolution fellows!

Semi protected

I've semi-protected this page to deal with the anon William M. Connolley 09:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Thank you. Best Regards, Signaturebrendel 16:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

USA

In the opening paragraph it states that: "The United States of America is not considered a great power, but a superpower." We do, however list the US as we should. I have revised the sentence to read the US is also considered a superpower. In my opinion being a superpower implies you being a great power. Signaturebrendel 16:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Portugal?

Portugal isn't referred anywhere on the article! How can this be? Portuguese Empire was one of the largest and more diverse empires in history!!!

"Disagreement exists"

Okay, here:

The UN Security Council nations (excluding the USA), namely the UK, France, China and Russia, are normally considered Great Powers, but disagreement exists, especially on the status of Russia.

What's there to debate? These are all immensely powerful nations. Especially Russia, actually. I've removed this part for the time being. Furiouszebra 00:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Quite right, goodness knows how that crept in.
Xdamrtalk 00:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
I Agree they all are true Great Powers. Signaturebrendel 15:16, 7 August 2006 (UTC)Reply


Italy is a great power

Italy is actually a global/great power, simply because the weight of the country is too big to be ignored. If someone does not admit it I think it is a prejudice. Many proofs were brought before in this debate, evidently someone prefers to ignore them. I can simply recapitulate: 1) The weight of Italian economy is quite the same of United Kingdom and France, only in the last five years China surpassed them in the list of GDP (and I hope for the global economy that it is not a bubble) so the status perception of them can’t be downsized in so few years. 2) The weight of Italian military is lesser than United States, China, Russia, a little lesser than France and United Kingdom, but is quite the same of Germany and Japan (but actually the last two countries can’t project their force far beyond borders due their constitutional limits and history), in fact Italy yields not only a considerable army (see Military of Italy) but also the fifth navy in the world in terms of gross tonnage (after United States, United Kingdom, France and Russia), with an aircraft carrier (very few countries can line up them, the navies of Germany and Japan are completely lacking of aircraft carriers) and another is under construction (see Marina Militare). Also the technological capacity of the country is proved in the link posted above, especially in terms of military and space construction. Actually the weight of military projection of Italy is superior than Germany and Japan, it is proved by the fact that Italy is absolutely the third contributor on United Nation military mission throughout the world. 3) The weight of Italy in the global policy is proved in many manners: the country is member of G8 and a founder of NATO and European Union , where plays the role of balance needle between the others great countries. The capacity of Italian diplomacy is globally recognized, especially in some strategic areas as East Europe, Mediterranean sea, Middle East and Latin America. Italians are famous since the Middle Ages for their diplomatic ability and mediation capacity, moreover Italy is viewed more nicely than the others ex colonial powers in the developing countries, surely better than Germany (for is Nazi past) and Japan (that is very hated in east Asia for his behavior during the II World War). Very recently Rome hosted the summit about the Israeli-Lebanese crisis and probably will be Italy to guide the UN interposition force that will be lined up on the Israeli-Lebanese border (it will be decided in the very next days). Last year (during the September 2005 UN General Assembly) Italy (that is working for a permanent seat on UN Security Council for the whole European Union) leading the Coffee Club was able to block the aspiration of the G4. About the soft power...Well someone was ironical about pizza, pasta and italian stylists, but if in the world billion are eating and dressing italian it is another proof of the influence of the country. The cultural influence is proved in many other manners: Italy hosts the 40% of the World Heritage Site of UNESCO and during the last decades was always in the top five list of most visited countries. The country hosts the Holy See of Catholic Church and the Italian language is the Lingua Franca among the hierarchy. The Italian language is also the fifth most taught non-native language in the world (after English, French, Spanish and German). Finally the italian cinema is regarded as one of the most important in the world (and it is also proved by the fact that italian cinema won the greatest number of oscars among movies non-english speaking). Even in sports Italy is not the last one (see Total Olympics medal count). All that proves that Italy is among the most important countries in the world. kayac1971 11:57 22 August 2006

From the archives I read you are absolutely correct. Many points are made but their is just an bigoted mindset that exists in the admins who "guard" this page. This is exactly why the WIki project has lost and is always losing credibility.. especially with anything that is "political". Sad. But these same people will read these lines and generate another excuse in their heads why they are actually -right-.
Just a quick pointer - on this page we post new topics at the bottom, not the top.
You raise an interesting prima facie case. If you can find a source which explicitly states that Italy is a Great power (WP:OR, WP:V, etc) then by all means add it. We cannot make original inferences or interpretations from data and statistics, so the source needs to be explicit. Do that and nobody will have any problem with Italy being included here.
Xdamrtalk 11:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Reply


Where are the sources that explicitly states, for examples, that Japan, Germany and perhaps India are actually Great powers? The proofs that you are finding are the same statistics and data reported in so many discussions and links here, surely a statistic can be interpretated, but in the lists where a country is always placed in the top five or in the top ten, one can't ignore its position, or he is blind. If Germany and Japan are included in the group of Greats only because their huge economy (their political and military weight remaining still lesser than others) I can also give a citation from the CIA The World Factbook 2005 "Italy has a diversified industrial economy with roughly the same total and per capita output as France and the UK". kayac1971 14:09 22 August 2006

I add some links about the military projection of Italy [1] [2] [3] kayac1971 15:55 22 August 2006

Here is a good example of an external source that claims Italy is subordinate to Franco-German or US-UK actions. From the article, "Italian classical geopolitical interests -- i.e. stability and security of the Euro-Mediterranean area and advantageous economic exchange with southeastern Europe and North African countries -- seem to be subordinated to the U.S.' 'Greater Middle East' project and to the Franco-German political and economic leadership in the E.U." I do not doubt the fact that Italy is probably the greatest power that is not currently listed on Wikipedia as a Great Power. I just can find no verifiability as to its being given the status of Great Power by anyone other than contributors here. At the same time, I have found a few articles of varying strengths that suggest the opposite (i.e. that Italy is building its power but can not currently stand on the same level as current Great powers). I urge you to read the "WP:" policies listed above in Xdamr's post that define Original Research and Verifiability and provide sources that explicitly state Italy as a Great power in international relations. ju66l3r 15:15, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

I disagree with this statement. Italy is not a current great power. If we raise Italy to great power status, then other countries such as Spain, Brazil, heck, even Canada and Australia will have to move up, due to many similarities. Casey14 19:20, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Okay, lets not argue with the "If Germany and Japan are superpowers then Italy should be too" scheme. There seem to be two main theories here:
  • All G8 nations are Great Powers or,
  • All those with either huge economies / global infuence (Germany and Japan) and UN security council seat /military power (UK, France) are great powers.
Now I can see how one might argue both ways but the bottom line is that Germany and Japan are economic behemoths, meaning that they own a substantial share of this world's factors of production and thus have immense control of the global allocation of resources. The UK and France have smaller, though still large, economies (roughly the size of Italy's) but in turn they each have a seat on the UN security council and a strong military. Italy just has a relatively large economy (much smaller than that of Germany or Japan) and unlike the UK or France does not have a UN security council seat or a similar military power. Now, as Xdamr said, if you find a source that states Italy is a great power you can go ahead and add it. As I have said, despite the Italy's economy being smaller than Germany's I could see Italy being a G8 country as a great power-you just need to find a credible source. Regards, Signaturebrendel 20:04, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
Credible source for Italy to be a Great Power? This page is starting to lose any credibility just because of these sort of statements, no offense. To me it looks like there is no rigid criteria used on here what-so-ever. Everything is opinions and stereotypes -- usually based on ignorance. Why is there this obsession with asking for sources that Italy is a Great Power? I am personally in the opinion that neither Germany nor Japan is a great power. Italy, Japan and Germany are all G7 countries. None are a member of the UN Security Council. There wealth is quite similar, Germany benefits by a larger population to it's neighbors -- that is all. On the flip side Germany and Japan have militaries that are almost indefinitely hobbled. Italy was the third or fourth largest force in Iraq after the US and UK. Italy is currently the only country with the balls to come forward and lead the peacekeeping force in Lebanon after mighty France backed out. You would simply not see this from Germany or Japan. Ok, this leads us to China and India. They are so-called emerging powers, it doesn't mean they are a Great Power. The Chinese and Indians may disagree with much emotion, but does that create fact or fiction? In my opinion, this page has no credit in it's current stage, especially with the extremely biased and stubbornly-POV administrative work that one can sense from the archives. Singling out Italy to require credible sources is almost laughable, if their wasn't suppose to be some seriousness to this project. At this stage I would even suggest removing the Modern Power section all together until a very clear criteria can be setup. I for one do not see Germany above UK, France or Italy. Besides a higher population -- I see many things lacking. To be a Great Power wouldn't a country also have to have some domination culturally? There is a strong desire for French, British and especially Italian culture. German culture? Please... This comment was left by 192.45.72.26
  • I agree that sources are never asked for Germany or Japan. I find many sources that say that neither Germany or even UK and France are still Great Powers and that India is a possible Great Power in the future and China is begining to be a Great Power.Japan isn't metioned.

On the other we cannot compare Italy to Australia, Canada, Spain or even Brazil. The population of the first three is lower and while that of Brazil is higher it has a GDP not much more than half of italian one. And what international order is Brazil capable of maintain. It hardly can contribute to it. The same for the other three. Australia and Canada are involved in international missions, but more in their region of the World and without the weight of Italy. The market and economy of these four countries is much smaller than italian one and their military is smaller and weaker too.

And if we look at many articles including some of wikipedia, we found sources that Italy is really a Great Power. It is commonly found papers and articles saying that Italy is against G-4 intentions because if G-4 entered UN Security Council, Italy would be the only Great nation left outside UNSC. And is also common to see that Italy would be the only of EU Majors being left outside. Spain is not considered an EU Major. The EU Major nations are France, Italy, UK and Germany.

And finally if we look at wikipedia criteria of Great Power, Italy has all. It has capability to contribute to international order, the main eg. is the Lebanon crisis,in which Italy will lead UN Mission. It has internal cohesion that allows effective state action, specially in the last 20 years, when arrest of big mafia brought more security and since the 90's when governments became more stable. It has economic power and a great internal market. Germany is an economic behemoth as someone said, but Italy is not a midget. Germany GDP isn't even the double of Italian one. It could be one and an half. And as for military power Italy isn't so great as France or UK but has a great military in all senses that is comparable to Germany. It has a smaller army and air force but has a bigger navy and is more involved internationally. It has more combat experience, altough people don't think so. ACamposPinho 0:23, 22 August 2006

Okay Germany and Japan are without a doubt Great Power.
  • The cultural influence of both countries is great: American culture, for example, is hugely influenced by German culture (Hamburgers, obsession w/ cars, etc...) In the US Italians were still as seen as a minority ethnic group until well into the century. They suffered many of the same hardships as African and Irish Americans as they were not accepted into the American mainstream for a long time, leading to the fact that Italian culture remains "ethnic" to this day (Watch just about any Scorcisi movie). German and English cultures (Germans started settleing in the US in the 1790s) had more influence of the development of US culture which is now being sold across the world. So when a consumer in Shanghai gobbles up American culture is he consuming Italian culture? Probably not. Is he consuming British and German culture by consuming a American culture? Yes to some extend he or she is.
  • Both countries, Japan and Germany, have immense influence over the global allocation of resources. German and Japanese companies own much of the infrastructure in other countries, their investors determine the fate of many business across the planet and entire cities such as Pueblo, Mexico depend on German or Japanese corperations for emplyment. I think we all know by now how powerful large corperations such as SONY, Daimler-Chrsyler, RWE, T-Mobile, Siemens, the Volkswagen AG, Honda can be-Germany and Japan could make or break entire third world countries with their economic might. Stores across this globe are filled with German and Japanese products and customers holding Japanese cell phones under the contract of German celluar providers. (A Sony phone held by a T-Mobile customer at a Safeway in Honolulu pucharsing Ritter Sport chocolate, for example)
  • China could foreclose on US debt which would lead to economic disaster-they fate of much of this world's economy rests in the hands of the Chinese.
  • India has one-freaking-billion people
  • The UK and France do not have the economic might of Germany or Japan but in turn have a UN Secutity council seat.
That said (and I am repeating myself here), Italy could, as a G8 nation, be seen as a Great Power, just provide a reference. Regards, Signaturebrendel 01:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
I think this is exactly what is being stated above, opinions based on simple and out of control ignorance. You are listing all this information about Germany, because you simply have some insight into Germany. What utter arrogance to try and claim that American culture is actually a German bi-product. American culture is by definition a combination of cultures. You point out the popularity of hamburgers (LOL!) but then completely neglect the same situation exists with pizza, etc., etc. Germany simply does not dominate the World culturally -- and probably never will. Hopping on the American bandwagon is a very sorry sight to see. You mention a few well known Japanese companies and German companies you are familiar with, and think this is going to make a convincing story? Because you happen to not be aware of companies from Italy, Canada (i.e. the other G7 nations) that make huge global contributions, you expect us to educate you? Pueblo may have a strong dependence on Volkswagen, but Poland and Brazil largely depend on Fiat's same type of investment. Magneti Marelli and CNH are major employers in the US. Purchasing Ritter Sport chocolate (whatever the heck that is)? Maybe instead they have some taste and are buying something from Ferrero like Rocher or Nutella. And by the way, Samsung isn't even Japanese -- it is KOREAN!! Ok, on to more arguments. India has "one-freaking-billion people". This means it is a Great Power? Absolute nonsense. Lastly, I'm a bit confused about you after reading the archives. On your page you imply you are a German who immigrated to the US. It sounds to me like you were actually an Army brat who was born in Germany with a woman who married an American. Saying you are "orginally from Germany and was born in Heidelberg." is bending the truth in your favour -- oh just a tad bit. It would be interesting to know where all this ultra German attitude has come from. You do know giving an air of arrogance 9 out of 10 times points to insecurity. hah. This particular project has really become a Grade A joke. JJx2 05:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
It is obvious that Germany and Japan carry far more economic clout than Italy. Yes I am aware of Italy's large corperations but there are fewer than German ones. FYI: Let's keep this professional. ("brat" is a actually a personal attack-which I removed) Also, Ritter Sport is sold in the US as gurmet chocolate (Trader Joe's-I thought you live in CA). That said I remember you from your dynamic IP-which was blocked-so uh... good-bye. Regards, Signaturebrendel 07:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
Ok, what is number of Italian vs. German "large corporations? Or are these, as I expect, numbers pulled out of your...umm, air. "Army Brat" as a personal attack? You have got to be kidding. Hyper-sensitive; need a hug? I do not live in the United States, and I don't know what you are talking about with Ritter Sport nor blocked IP addresses. So uh... good-bye. JJx2 08:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
For India, not only are there all the sources and facts presented on India as an emerging superpower. But there are sources that explicitly call India a Great Power. Exhibit A, Exhibit B, Exhibit C, Exhibit D. And that took me hardly any time. I might as well source them now so that you guys don't bring it up again. Happy? These sources say that India is a GREAT POWER. I googled India Great power and that is what I got. Now if I google "Italy Great Power". The first source is [www.imdb.com/title/tt0145487/ this]. The media is often the decider of who is and who isn't a Great power. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:38, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
What about the German Exhibit, the Japanese Exhibit, the Chinese Exhibit, the second Chinese Exhibit. They all describe their respective countries as GREAT POWERS. And HERE and HERE is a source that describes Italy as a MIDDLE POWER! Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
Ok, so let me get this straight. You are an Indian who is arguing that India is a Great Power. You are not maybe a bit biased and nationalistic? Your first reference is a page heavily edited by POV Indians. The second reference is one man's opinion that India may be a Great Power one day. In the conclusion he even states, "Finally, with regard to the third factor, India will have to resolve the tremendously complex issues of ethnic and communal strife within its own body politic in order to stay together long enough to become a “great power.". That sentence thereby negates your own reference! I mean, don't waste everyone's time with biased and nationalistic POV. Just because you feel India is a Great Power, and you Google to your little heart's content, does not mean it is. The only thing going for it (or may it will actually go AGAINST it) is a huge population. India has no political influence outside of the region of Pakistan and Bangladesh. It is not even an internally stable country. The GDP/per-capita is lower-class third-world and poverty is immense. You just don't mass procreate into a Great Power. Not convinced -- not in the least. But I'm sure you have already made a nationalistic goal of your self to have India listed.... JJx2 08:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

"No, no my fiend, not army. My father was a professor, then became a civilian advisor for the military in Heidelberg, where I grew up" Oh, that looks like a personal attack there. Calling people fiends, how cruel. I'll try to get through it though. Ok, so he was involved with the military, but it is beside the point. The point is, it seems you go out of your way to say you are a German who has moved to the US. But it isn't really the case. More like a American/German whose Dad found a German wife, married, and then moved back to the US. I guess it sounds more fancy to say you are a full German who just immigrated. Ok, whatever. JJx2 08:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Okay, "friend" is a bit tart, but brat is a flat out attack. How does this relate to the article? I doesn't. This is obviously meant to be offensive. Also, there is a difference between revising a post to take out anything that might be offensive and leaving it in. Regards, Signaturebrendel 08:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
Wiki itself has Military Brat listed. No where does it state it is derogatory. You really need to learn to relax and not think every word or statement is offensive. You just stick to your POV and even censure other's posts?? JJx2 08:22, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Read the article in full: "and can be an insult or a compliment, depending on the context. Although brat is usually taken to mean a spoiled child," -aside from the fact that term does not apply to me-this is my last post responding to you. Regards, Signaturebrendel 08:27, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

That only suggests the meaning is subjective. Ah, I love it when people can only resort to bowing out of a debate. It shows a lot. JJx2 08:29, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Please! Don't we bring the discussion to a personal level! It is not serius! We are debating about international facts and data not about our families or the love we have to our countries.kayac1971 15:22 23 August 2006

Exactly as I have said. This should be a serious project. I personally believe that we need to stop discussing individual countries and instead develop a rigerous criteria. I'm tired of reading all this, "Germany is obviously...", "Japan is obviously...", "Italy is obviously...". I'm not convinced there is any Great Power at the moment aside from the Superpower US and the emerging power, China. Can we work on a real criteria? These political pages that harbor people just trying to cement their nationalistic opinions and agendas on WP are really getting old.
  • Only one thing to add: speaking of allocation of resources is not enough or a good criteria to define a Great Power. If it was, India couldn't be considered a Great Power because it has fewer big corporations than Italy for eg. And India and China only have some big corporations because of their huge population and recent growth.

But if this was a criteria to take into account, there would be many countries that should be in this list, Italy, Netherlands, South Korea, Switzerland, Spain and others, because allof these countries have bigger allocation of resources inthe world. Are all Great Powers? Idon't think so. ACamposPinho 23:09, 23 August 2006

Campos, the question is not regarding Germany or Japan's position as a Great Power but whether or not Italy is a great power. If A and B are great power then C must be too-is not the best way to argue. As you can see I have added footnotes for Germany, Japan and China. Do the same for Italy and it will be on the list as a current great power. All you need to provide is a source about as good as the one we have for Japan or Germany. We could argue about different ways in which to interpret economical statictics for next decade and still disagree. Regards, Signaturebrendel 22:17, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply
I was not arguing who is a Great Power. I only said that allocation of resources and having big corporations is not a good eg., is one but not the only one. If this was the case, Netherlands would be one of the greatest powers in the World since many global corporations have headquarters there.ACamposPinho 0:02, 24 August 2006
Considering what is a fact in wikipedia, "Italy as a Great Power" ended in 1945, read this:

In 1943 Italy was war-torn and poverty-stricken, a country that was regional and predominantly agrarian. Since then Italy has undergone the most profound transformation - economic, social and demographic - in its entire history. source: http://www.word-power.co.uk/catalogue/0140124969.
Or this: As of 2006, Italy ranks third in the world in number of military forces operating in peace-keeping and peace-enforcing scenarios (Afghanistan, Kosovo, Iraq, Balkans, Lebanon, Israel), following only the United States and United Kingdom. A new aircraft carrier, the Conte Cavour, is in construction in the Liguria region. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Italy ACamposPinho 0:17, 24 August 2006

Amen!! We have people on here fighting on and on about what are in effect their personal (and sometimes purely nationalistic) views. I do not see any country but the US and (possibly) China as Great Powers (AND this is just my opinion). If this were further extended, I would say all G7 countries and UN security members because you can now see some sort of logic that many would agree with. Simple, done. This nonsense above with all the Germans vs. Italians vs. Indians vs. Chinese and vise-vise versa is just crazy. One German mentions all the time no-way Italy, definitely Germany. I mean, is this becoming a grade-school yelling match? And sorry, when it comes to Brazil and India: Emerging, yes. Great? Not yet, unclear if they will reach that status. Don't get your feelings hurt over this!!

Criteria

If possible I want suggest some criteria: 1) presence in the top ten of both List of countries by GDP (nominal) and List of countries by GDP (PPP) 2) permanent seat on UN Security Council 3) presence in the G8 4) countries with a considerable military power. This criteria can be deduced from: List of countries by number of active troops, countries that actually can line up aircraft carriers in their navy (see List of aircraft carriers by country), presence in the top ten List of countries by military expenditures, presence in the List of countries with nuclear weapons and also among the countries that can built them in a very short stretch of time, the list is reported in the same article; presence in the top ten number of military forces operating in peace-keeping and peace-enforcing scenarios or more simply major presence in List of UN peacekeeping missions 5) countries with a considerable soft power or cultural influence in the world. This criteria can be deduced from: list of major multinational corporation and companies [4]; the national language have to be in the top ten group of most taught non-native language; presence in the top ten list of Nobel laureates by country; presence in the top ten list of World Tourism Rankings; presence in the top ten list of Total Olympics medal count;

I think that if a country reaches 2/3 of the criteria can be considered as a great/global power.

Obviously some criteria can be changed and others added.

kayac1971 1:11 22 August 2006

OR, we just make it simple with less formulas and criteria for now and say G7/G8 and/or UNSC equal GP. Then eventually try and develop a more robust and probably complex measure.
Well that's all fine and good but where is a source explicitly stating that Italy is a Great Power? The criteria above look fine and where do they come from? Who says a country needs 2/3 of those criteria? The phrase "Obviously some criteria can be changed and others added" indicates that the criteria, as good as they are, are OR. We cannot create our own WP criteria for what a great power is. Regards, Signaturebrendel 23:20, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply


I've largely kept out of this debate - I've said all I want to on the other occasions the case of Italy has been brought up. However I will jump in here and shout out ORIGINAL RESEARCH, ORIGINAL RESEARCH, ORIGINAL RESEARCH.
Read WP:OR - please, read it. Where do you get this idea from? Unless it is verified from a reputable source you may not use it here. No matter what a good idea it appears to be, unless it constitutes part of reputable academic opinion, it doesn't belong here. By all means get it published in a scholarly journal; if you do then it will be included with grateful thanks to you. Until you do, a personal theory cannot be used here in any form whatsoever.
Xdamrtalk 23:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Reply