 | Anti-Americanism is currently a good article nominee. Nominated by an unspecified nominator at 21st sept 06--Frogsprog 20:01, 21 September 2006 (UTC) Please use the
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A very good piece, in my opinion. Many compliments to the writer. S.M.
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Who is who
Just so that we're all clear, User:Marielleh and User:Christinam are the same person; in looking back at Marielleh's edits this actually makes perfect sense. The former has been blocked indefinitely along with at least two other socks. The Christinam account may come back to edit here after her block but, to be frank, I'm not assuming good faith at this point. Marskell 16:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Alternative Photo
Here is a photo where an image from the Abu Ghraib scandal is being used in an example of Anti-Americanism.
This would probably be more neutral, and more immediately relevant to the article.--DCAnderson 16:11, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I say very good: it's a direct comment on the issue and on the country itself Be bold and add it. Marskell 16:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- I like it, too. Tom Hope
its manufactured, unbalanced propaganda. A perfect example of anti-americanism. Mrdthree 07:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
Come on folks...
"In Japan and South Korea, much anti-Americanism has focused on the rude behavior of American military personnel, aggravated especially by repeated sexual assaults on locals by U.S. servicemen. The on-going U.S. military presence in Okinawa remains a contentious issue in Japan.[14]"
Yes, the on-going U.S. Miltary presence in Okinawa is a contentious issue. NO the mention of REPEATED sexual Assualts on locals by US servicemen is not neccessary.
Funny also that the article mentions "Guantanamo Concentration Camps".. and "CIA Torture Flights" Bias Showing through?
Contemporary understanding of what constitutes a "concentration camp" is not Gitmo.. it's Auschwitz.
CIA Torture Flights have not been confirmed to have been made, either by the "receiving" govts involved, or the "exporting" US govt. Perhaps a National Inquirer citation should be thrown in there. Also, the naming of such flights as "CIA Torture Flights" is extremely inflamatory, suggestive and irresponsible if the goal is a factual, unbiased article. But since a newspaper names it that, I guess that makes it O.K.
- We've had a problem with an editor pushing POV. It needs a thorough going over. On your points:
- Disagree on one. "Repeated" is taken directly from the BBC source. It warrants a mention: absolutely (and of course naturally) the sexual crimes have been a locus for anti-American sentiment in Jap. and Kor.
- Agree absolutely on concentration camps. "Torture flights" should be put in brackets if it is used at all. Marskell 16:21, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- But anti americanism is not based on facts or proof. It is the views of people and many of them will probably accept these as true or grow in distaste for america due to scandal and propaganda. You can't remove something because there is no proof of it or bacause it's over the top but you have to say why people use these examples for american hatred.
True; the sexual assault cases have been notable in the context of Japanese anti-americanism, but the phraseology used is still leaning towards POV. I've changed "repeatedly" to "high-profile cases of" since it reflects the two important facts: A - That there was more than one case (though I think I'm correct in thinking that not all are actually proven cases, some are still ongoing) and B - That the incidents were widely reported in Japan (and mentioned by BBC, FOX et al). I think that should please everyone :). Edders 12:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Squaring the circle
With the pic issue addressed I'd like to go back to the larger issue of definition. It seems to me that rather than debating what it is, the actual question is "when can it properly be employed?" Suggest for the first para:
"Anti-Americanism is a prejudice against the United States or the American people. In popular practice, a disparate variety of actions and attitudes critical of the United States have been labeled anti-Americanism, including hostility toward its government and culture. The usefulness and accuracy of the term in describing such a broad range has thus often been questioned. The widely-used anti-American sentiment less explicitly implies an actual prejudice and is often used instead."
The first sentence is actually more strict than at present, the point being "if you want to call it anti-Americanism, it actually has to be prejudicial." Toinet, for example (again verbatim in O'Connor): the term "is only fully justified if it implies systematic opposition - a sort of allergic reaction - to America as a whole." This is not a right-wing American polemicist saying "look how bad everyone is to America" but a French academic rather skeptically pointing out "if you actually want to use this term, it actually has to rise to this level." Let's try and make this distinction and edit accordingly. Marskell 17:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
- ? Would this help us or simply invite more mud-slinging? Marskell 14:04, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
"Critical and reasoned expression of a disagreement"
"By anti-Americanism, I mean the critical and reasoned expression of a disagreement with what Americans say or do. By Americanophobia, I mean the total visceral rejection of anything that has to do with American culture, democracy, or economy, in short, with American civilization. Anti-Americanism expresses itself through critical acts or words; it may not be reasonable, but it is openly debated in the public sphere and is related to the concrete events that mark the ups and downs of Franco-American relations. Philippe Roger and Jean-François Revel’s recent books abound in examples of this nature (see Chapter one)."
Denis Lacorne - Anti-Americanism and Americanophobia : A French Perspective - March 2005 CERI/FNSP http://www.ceri-sciencespo.com/archive/mars05/artdl.pdf
84.178.189.162 09:40, 26 May 2006 (UTC) - logged in as Rkrichbaum 10:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
"Never extending to a total rejection"
"... Anti-Americanism, if we choose to retain the term at all, should be seen as a weak and ambivalent complex of anti-feelings. It does not apply but selectively, never extending to a total rejection of both forms of Americanism: the cultural and the political. Thus we can have either of two separate outcomes; an anti-Americanism rejecting cultural trends which are seen as typically American, while allowing of admiration for America’s energy, innovation, prowess, and optimism, or an anti-Americanism in reverse, rejecting an American political creed that for all its missionary zeal is perceived as imperialist and oppressive, while admiring American culture, from its high-brow to pop varieties. These opposed directions in the critical thrust of anti-Americanism often go hand in hand with opposed positions on the political spectrum. The cultural anti-Americanism of those rising in defense of Europe’s cultural identities is typically on the conservative right wing, whereas the political anti-Americanism of the Cold War and the war in Vietnam typically occurred on the left. Undoubtedly the drastic change in America’s position on the world stage since World War II has contributed to this double somersault. Since that war America has appeared in a radically different guise, as much more of a potent force in every-day life in Europe and the larger world than ever before. ..."
European Anti-Americanism: What’s New? Rob Kroes, University of Amsterdam http://www2.let.uu.nl/solis/nasa/text/kroeslecture.htm
Rkrichbaum 10:29, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. Both these points are covered in the intro so perhaps we should just leave it. Marskell 11:34, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Certainly not in the formula suggested above, and also not in the current version, which, in addition, is misleading and, at least in part, inaccurate and wrong. I suggest further reading of original sources to reach a better understanding of the term and its usage. Maybe we can first collect a number of relevant quotes and condense them into a more reasonable version. If users insist e.g. upon citing a definition of anti-Americanism as something irrational, verbatim quotes from primary sources, not taken out of context, would certainly help to evaluate their relevance. We can later decide whether such definitions, if they exist, need to be mentioned in the introduction. Rkrichbaum 12:56, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
Source: "By anti-Americanism, I mean the critical and reasoned expression of a disagreement with what Americans say or do."
Current intro: "Whether sentiment hostile to United States reflects reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations, rather than a truly prejudiced belief system, is a further complication."
- The definition of anti-American as "critical and reasoned expression of a disagreement" is obviously not "covered" by a sentence that speaks of "hostile sentiment" and that "it is a further complication" if such feelings "reflect a reasoned evaluation", rather than a hypothetical and unsourced "truly prejudiced belief system". Rkrichbaum 13:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Source: "... Anti-Americanism, if we choose to retain the term at all, should be seen as a weak and ambivalent complex of anti-feelings."
Current intro: "However, it has also been suggested...that the term merely signifies a rough composite of stereotypes, prejudices and criticisms towards Americans or the United States [3]."
- "Complex anti-feelings" is used in a radically different sense than "rough composite of stereotypes ..." etc. which is obvious from the quote above alone, if it is read in its entirety. Rkrichbaum 13:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
There are differences of course—the sources are making assertions while we present debate points—but I actually find these two quotes encouraging in terms of the intro as it stands. Marskell 16:51, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
I didn't post the above, BTW, as a suggested total intro, but just as a first paragraph. Marskell 17:01, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
- Sir, I think you have an "in degree and in kind" problem. Treating differences in the latter sense, when they are more properly dealt with in the former. Either that, or you just like to argue. Kroes would like to form a binary--good for him. Perhaps we can use this, if and when we want to point out the difference between cultural and political criticism. His preface to the point is this: "Yet the range of (American) behavior is simply too wide—ranging, in culture from the sublime to the vulgar, and in politics from high-minded internationalism to narrow nationalism—to warrant any across-the-board rejection." This differs in degree from, but is not out of keeping with, Katzenstein, which we have in the intro. It differs in degree from, but is not out of keeping with O'Conner, which we have in the intro. Tweak, if you feel "does not rise to total rejection" needs mentioning. But please cease positing gaps that do not exist. Marskell 14:22, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
exesiv acceptance of homosexuality?
i have never heard any country criticise usa for exesiv acceptance of homosexuality. i would like to see some documentation for this claim
- That is indeed an interesting edit. For quite a while, the claim was "criticism of lack of gay rights ..., and, conversely (put), acceptance of homophobia". Then an anonymous vandal apparently didn't like it and simply changed "acceptance of homophobia" into the opposite "acceptance of homosexuality", without so much as an explanation, let alone a source. Someone reverted this anonymous vandalism, then someone came along and re-reverted, with the explanation that the word "conversely" was allegedly not appropriately used.
- I am, like you, very much interested in the source for the claim that "acceptance of homosexuality" is part of what is perceived as "anti-American" criticism, as opposed to, say, the homophobia of the people around Fred Phelps whose activities are indeed frequently cited in the foreign press as an example of outrageous homophobia that seems to be acceptable in the US. Rkrichbaum 13:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- It is probably more an issue of anti-Westernism than anti-Americanism in this case. I can believe that various conservative Islamic organisations/states have criticized Western countires for liberal social attitudes in general, but I doubt this is really an example of anti-Americanism in the strict sense. Cadr 08:13, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
- You don't need to seek out a conservative Islamic states--Americans criticize their own country for acceptance of homosexuality. Please also note, I have reverted again. All of your specific points are already there with general bullets.
- Personally, I'd like to scrap this bloody list and turn it into prose. Marskell 08:18, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
"Criticisms of the United States" -- too POV; suggested solution
The "Criticisms of the United States" section needs counterbalance to (start to...) make this article less baldly anti-American. I recommend redoing it as a point-counterpoint. (The section that follows, "Criticisms of anti-Americanism," doesn't cut it.) Anyone object? --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-06-24 09:28 (UTC)
- Turn both sections into prose and source them is my opinion. A point, counter-point I think will invite OR asides. Marskell 11:44, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree that both should be turned into prose, and specifically, added to the already existing sections above, or, where needed, added under new headings. I'm going to "be bold" and comment out both "Criticisms of the United States" and "Criticisms of anti-Americanism". --Cultural Freedom talk 2006-06-25 08:16 (UTC)
Panama Canal, Indegenous people, Texas, Phillippines, Slavery, etc.
It may be a good idea to include some historical facts into this article to justify anti-americanism, like the issues i've mentioned above. Obiously history could be considered. 24.23.51.27 02:39, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
I copied this from another website. While I think the writers choice of words may be a bit strong, I nevertheless agree with his main ideas. The writer contends that Anti American sentiment has been increasing drastically since 2000 because the Bush Administration:
1. Intentionally misled the country into an illegal war.
2. Willfully and knowingly violated American law by bypassing FISA court to spy on Americans without judicial approval, including those with no connection to terrorism.
3. Willfully and knowingly violated international law by authorizing an illegal invasion of a sovereign nation.
4. Collusion with numerous corporate entities to increase corporate profits fraudulently with taxpayer dollars, resulting in rampant war profiteering.
5. Conflict of interest, drawing salary from private entities while in office and returning large no-bid government contracts to these entities.
6. Defamation of character, organized attempts to defame their critics.
7. Leaked classified information about their perceived political enemies.
8. Using taxpayer dollars to create and disseminate propaganda deemed illegal by the Government Accountability Office.
9. Violated existing American treaties by authorizing the use of torture.
It sure does seem like it's easy to blame President Bush for a lot of the things wrong with our country. But then again, there are probably reasons that so many people feel the way that they do about him(Oh wait a tick, there are! See above). Spazik007 01:41, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Number of Anti-Americans
It is estimated that the total number of Anti-Americans are around 4 billion people.--Noisettes 15:19, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
Besides.. how in the world would you determine that? 67.125.132.93 00:09, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- I suspect it's meant as a joke. Hakluyt bean 01:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
You lost a few links along the way...
Here are a few links that used to be in the article and still should be:
Opposition to U.S. foreign policy should be a paragraph, not a footnote, and would include:
- global warming
- Perceived American Exceptionalism regarding international institutions and international law
- Perceptions that the United States was the key inspiration for globalization and neoliberal free trade policy (
- widespread belief among the altermondialists that the IMF is a toy of the United States and aggravates the situation of poor countries (Argentina, Kenya...)
- Cultural imperialism
Dislike for the "American way of life":
- Social issues in the United States
- health care (or absence thereof)
- War on Drugs
- gun control policies (or absence thereof)
- high rates of imprisonment
- homelessness
- continued employment of capital punishment
Criticisms of national character
- Claims of excessive materialism and a peculiar relationship to money
- Claims of excessive nationalism or blind patriotism
- Claims of widespread ignorance and arrogance toward foreigners
- Stereotypes of obesity and fast food diets
- Criticisms of excessive religiosity and "Puritanism".
There are probably a few things to leave, among all those, but this is aproximately what anti-americanism is in France, which is one of the most anti-American European countries. That nearly none of this is mentionned in the article should ashame the editors. Jules.LT 19:01, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Anti-Americanism in Canada, etc.
The rest of this article is quite well written and reasonably NPOV, but the caption to the Canada picture reads like polemic to me.
I have marked it as NPOV to prevent a revert war. Referencing a blog isn't very substantial research to me. Ggugvunt 14:09, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I would start by saying I am very annoyed by american editors refusing to accept information that makes their country look unpopular, the image itself shows rioters throwing fencing sections at police, if that is not violent, or an illustration of strong feelings, I really do no know what is! --Frogsprog 14:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, you need to calm down a bit. Secondly, if you think the picture is so violent and strong, let it speak for itself. The text is clear enough without the polemics, which obviously conform to your POV. I find it interesting that you automatically assume that I am an American editor - please see WP:AGF. Ggugvunt 14:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Although I am not strictly against any nation, it is quite obvious really that the only people who would reject statements makin america look bad, would be americans, as really there is no international support for the country, though I would never make a statement so bold in an article... --Frogsprog 14:28, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Listen - my only issue is this: the caption sounded out of place with the reasonable tone of the rest of the article. Don't jump to conclusions - please. Can I revert it back to the non-adverbs version and remove the NPOV marker now? Ggugvunt 14:33, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- OK, a compromise, I will re-add the adverb "violently" but leave out strong--Frogsprog 17:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- Much better! Thank you! Ggugvunt 17:39, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- I removed the section. Anti-Americanism in various countries was split from here precisely to avoid such material crowding the general description. As stated in the edit summary, I'd suggest you need to show the specific country is exceptional in its AA attitudes to be included here. Marskell 09:35, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
The other
this section accuses anti americanism of being a cover up for failing nations/systems, POV!!!! will be removed tomorrow if no discussion --Frogsprog 21:11, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
- No, I strongly disagree. Read any scholarly book on the subject of Anti-Americanism as an ideology, and you will see this a core theory. The section does not say it is true and makes no accusations at all. Where are you seeing this? Tfine80 21:25, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Discrimination Section
this section is quite informative, Marksell justified removal of "in canada" but did not discuss removal of discrimination, I will (grudgingly) tag discrimination as neutrality disputed, along with "the other" which I also believe to be POV, comments welcome on both :) --Frogsprog 10:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- The section is simply two anecdotes that don't actually deal with anti-Americanism. Marskell 13:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
- anecdotes? I disagree! these are providing a background to people's dislike of america! to repeat myself again! I will not delete the other which i find to be POV, and will tag both as POV please do not remove without detailed discussion and arguments for the removal, "discrimination" is cited from wikiquotes and Is not in any way unsourced--Frogsprog 13:04, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
An anecdote: "a short account of a particular incident or event of an interesting or amusing nature, often biographical (dictionary.com, quoting Americna Heritage)." Anecdote(s) is what the propesed section amounts to. I'm not debating whether the words were said but whether they belong. The uncited "has caused much resentment in Communist China, and socialist Europe" is the only link. Do present day Chinese really give a shit about quotes from R. Nixon? Do they, to an exceptional degree, such that we should include them here? Cite that, if so. Marskell 22:34, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Pro Americanism
I'd like to make an observation, if I may. Most of the individuals editing this page seem to be under the impression that if a Frenchman utters "Those American's. It was so wrong to invade Iraq!" then that makes them Anti-American. It's as if, and my bias may be showing a bit here, but at least I'm honest about it and don't make any excuses, but it seems to me like a conservative tactic of those that support our current administration (The people in this country that aren't "Anti Bush") to try to explain away the critiscism from foreign entities as "Anti American". Think about it. Are you "Anti Mexico" because you want congress to pass a hardline immigration bill? There's even a peice in this article that says these "Anti American extremist brainwashing factions" create an "other", a group of people that aren't them, that are unkown and must be feared for their strange ways. This is exactly, EXACTLY what this conservative administration is doing to the us! The fact of the matter is that there was no "logical" reason to invade Iraq. Instead, Bush whipped up Anti-Iraq sentiment with false reports of weapons of mass destruction, catchy bumper sticker slogans, and the inherent suspicion that ALL people, American and Non-American, carry to varying degrees in their heart of those that are different. I defy any of you to open up a Quaran and show me the part where it says you get 72 virgins for dieing in Allah's name. That whole thing was made up by some Americans to try and get the rest of them to hate Muslims. I guess the point of my rant is that before you start throwing rocks at least make sure to move out of your glass house first. And I know what some of you are about to say to yourselves right now, and no, I'm not "Anti-American". I think that the country we have is something very unique and special. But that doesn't mean that I always think we're right, or good, or just. Remember the Native Americans? What did we do to them? How about the Japanease during World War Two? I mean, we weren't killing them like the Nazi's did to the Jews, but we still locked them up for being the race that they were. And to try and portray us as anything else than what we are, well, I think that that makes you the Anti-American, not me. Patriotism isn't just a word you slap on a bumper sticker. Spazik007 01:24, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
- The fact that both "sides" of this POV tend to complain that this article is POV in the other direction tells me we're doing something right :). Read the intro again: "Whether sentiment hostile to United States reflects reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations, rather than a truly prejudiced belief system, is a further complication." We are acknowledging the ambiguities here. What I think needs to happen is for the body to more carefully reflect the balance of the first two sections. There are still problems to be sure. Marskell 08:15, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
Too many pictures?
Does anyone else think this article is a little heavy on its' use of images? The first image (cover of Anti-Americanism) should definately stay, though I think another five pictures after that (at time of typing this) is a bit excessive and only serves to screw up the formatting. In my opinion the Nazi propaganda poster should also stay (due to its' relative fame) along with one other. Edders 16:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
As a side note, I made a minor edit to the propaganda poster to hopefully better reflect the most relevent themes it utilizes. Edders 16:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Lengthy Mid East section
The para beginning "the Pew research institute probed more deeply the stereotypes of Westerners in the Middle east" is tangential and should, I think, be abbreviated to a sentence or rm'ed. Marskell 08:09, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- I plan to expand it. It is essential to anti-americanism to understand the negative stereotypes. Stereotyping is a form of prejudice and prejudice is of course the defining aspect of anti-americanism. Prejudice is what underlies the assumption of the worst when given partial or inconclusive informaiton. Prejudice is what makes people (esp. in the middle east) disposed to believing propagnada and conspiracy over reports from reliable US institutions such as free media. Mrdthree 08:52, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- Sure, but tangents are tangents, and Wiki articles need to be summary style. The para deals with Anti-western attitudes, not AA attitudes specifically. Marskell 09:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- THere are tangents and there are secants. Mrdthree 09:10, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- Sure, but tangents are tangents, and Wiki articles need to be summary style. The para deals with Anti-western attitudes, not AA attitudes specifically. Marskell 09:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think that the article is devoted to causes. I think that polling data should be grouped into a new subsection about regional distribution of Anti-american sentiment. Mrdthree 17:15, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Intro
I reorganized the intro so that it would summarize content rather than argue it. what was your issue with the intro? Mrdthree 08:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC):
- Anti-Americanism, often Anti-American sentiment, refers to a broad range of attitudes and actions opposed or hostile to the government, culture, or people of the United States. Anti-Americanism has been described as a belief that configures the United States and the American way of life as threatening at their core [1].However, it has also been suggested that Anti-Americanism cannot be isolated as a consistent phenomenon and that the term merely signifies a rough composite of stereotypes, prejudices and criticisms towards Americans or the United States [2]. Interpretations of anti-Americanism have often been polarized, with heated cold war era exchanges charging that the term is propaganda [3] coupled to counter charges that criticism of the term is propaganda [4]. As a result, a central issue in understanding Anti-Americanism is distinguishing sentiment hostile to the United States that is a result of balanced and reasoned evaluation of specific policies and administrations [5] from hostile sentiment that is a result of prejudiced, manufactured, or unbalanced criticism of the United States using principles that take a blind eye to or cannot be applied to the actions of other states and organizations.
Contemporary anti-American positions range from opposition to the foreign policy of the United States government, opposition to the economic policies of the United States, opposition to American popular culture, and opposition to globalization and the dominant role of American interests. Increases in global anti-American attitudes appear to correlate with particular policies such as the Vietnam war or Iraq war [6], One may also believe that Anti-Americanism is a by-product of anger, jealousy, and envy generated by anyone who doesn't posses the same quality of life as the general United States public enjoys (per captia GDP). Logically, this would include less fortunate people also living in the United States[7]. (see also *International Monetary Fund, World Economic Outlook Database, April 2006 [1] )
- Too long, partly incoherent, and filled with unneeded adjectives. POV at end.
Marskell 09:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- I'll take another look at it. Mrdthree 09:06, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't see that the intro needs work. The only real addition above is "anger, jealousy, and envy" which is POV and simplistic. Anger over policies? We've got that and don't need to repeat it. But the envy bit is hard to quantify and often not borne out—the standard of living amongst nationals in Arab Gulf States, for instance, is in many ways superior to that of the average American.
- The main thing that needs doing here is sourcing the history. Marskell 10:24, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think the intro spends too much time arguing the legitimacy of the term and not enough time describing the content of the article. I think objections to the term should be discussed in the body in its own section and a consensus definition and overview of issues should be given in the intro. I also think the article should document recent trends in anti-american sentiment (is that too journalistic?) and provide contemporary and relevant examples of anti-american stereotypes and myths and be more integrated with the regional anti-americanism pages. Mrdthree 16:01, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
- The problem Mrd, is that attempting to describe "recent trends" typically deginerates into an anti-Bush rant and suffers from the "if this, why not that problem"--what example is sufficiently clear and obvious that it belongs in the intro? Vietnam and Iraq were chosen because of their breadth. I actually like the intro because it's fairly well-packed with scholarship, and the scholarship seems often to be about the legitimacy of the term. Though maybe it's not perfectly on-target with the body. Perhaps a sentence on geography over time: the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries = Europe, the twenthieth = global, with perhaps a mention of the mid-east. Marskell 09:13, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
GA nomination comments
It isn't realistic to nominate an article for GA while a section has a template for lack of citations. Someone with Photoshop ought to crop and correct the histogram on an underexposed image of protesters. Also, while the topic of the article is anti-Americanism, it's rather bad taste to show a burning American flag at the very top of the article - not the sort of image very likely to attract further reading by Americans who might wish to understand and correct the problems that lead to anti-American sentiment. Compare to the leading images at Islamophobia and Anti-Bosniak sentiment. Since the article here is not about the particular book whose cover image is depicted, the fair use copyright claim is shaky.
Also, in terms of balance, this article lacks examples of individual Americans who suffered due to prejudices against their country. Compare to Russophobia. While violence directed against American civilians due to their nationality has certainly been less severe, the article should mention the Iran hostage crisis and 9/11 as well as a sampling of other acts such as the murder of wheelchair-bound Leon Klinghoffer during the Achille Lauro hijacking. A fair treatment of this topic ought to acknowledge that the United States is not monolithic - individual Americans do not necessarily agree with the practices of their government. I recuse myself from making any decision on this nomination because my nearest relative was one of the last people to escape from the World Trade Center alive. Durova 23:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think the photo is perfect actually, as it catches one visually and shows the most obvious example of AA expression. Is there any more common symbol of the phenomenon than flag burning?—the act itself may be bad taste; our showing it is not. (Though you may have a point about the fair use claim.)
- "The problems that lead to Anti-American sentiment." No, no, no. Again, all this leads to is anti-Bush tirades or laundry lists of what people don't like about America. We must document the phenomenon as it exists first and foremost (i.e., expression as opposed to putative cause). Of course discussing what will include some discussion of why, and I don't think this is totally absent here. I would also say Wikipedia is not in the business of correcting anyone's behaviour; it should document, not agitate.
- Anyhow, the article can certainly be filled out, but after a year-and-a-half of watching it that needs to proceed slowly to avoid the inevitable shitstorms. As for the GA nomination, I'm indifferent as I don't see much use in that process; this article probably isn't up to standard in any case, as you note. Marskell 10:07, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- "The problems that lead to Anti-American sentiment." No, no, no. This takes my statement out of context. Perhaps I should clarify the point: to many Americans, one of the most offensive acts possible is to burn the flag. The article on Islamophobia doesn't begin with a reproduction of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. Instead it starts with a rally against Islamophobia and closes with an image of the "Stop the hate" campaign by the Islamic Political Party of America. None of the images here challenge Anti-Americanism, nor does the text compensate for that imbalance. This is an NPOV issue. Durova 13:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- The burning-flag picture is a powerful one, and neatly encapsulates the concept of anti-Americanism. I think it should stay. We can get too hung up on whether people are offended or not. Raymond Arritt 01:49, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
- "The problems that lead to Anti-American sentiment." No, no, no. This takes my statement out of context. Perhaps I should clarify the point: to many Americans, one of the most offensive acts possible is to burn the flag. The article on Islamophobia doesn't begin with a reproduction of the Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy. Instead it starts with a rally against Islamophobia and closes with an image of the "Stop the hate" campaign by the Islamic Political Party of America. None of the images here challenge Anti-Americanism, nor does the text compensate for that imbalance. This is an NPOV issue. Durova 13:26, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- This article doesn't seem to acknowledge the usage of the term to refer to Americans who are thought to have rejected perceived American core values, in the manner of the term "UnAmerican". Here is an example of that usage from the media,
- "the Democratic Party has had this McGovernite, anti-war, anti-American wing that pops up every once in a while"[2]
- Here is another
- "media pundits are attempting to define what it means for a U.S. citizen to be anti-American, in an effort to slow down the opposition to the war against Iraq." [3]
- I maybe wrong but at present the article only refers to international disagreement with practices of the U.S. Though the introduction and early sections are OK - the latter part of the article appears to want to own the term "anti-American" and run with it, claiming that opposition to certain U.S. practices is inherently "anti-American". That is not the case, nor the job of us to label it so.--Zleitzen 11:16, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- "Groups currently described as Anti-American are highly diverse, including French intellectuals, Islamist fundamentalists, Latin American populists, and even Americans themselves (within the United States the term "un-American" is as likely to be used)" is the closest we have regarding first. Re second, that is the longest-running outstanding debate here. Marskell 11:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't spot the "Un-American" caveat at first reading, which maybe is a good reason to expand that area within the article. The second point, the long-standing debate, has to me been unresolved judging by the latter part of the article. The article still attributes sentiments of "anti-Americanism" to subjects where this is surely in dispute. For instance our article says;
- "The Vietnam War boosted anti-American sentiment: here, American critics felt, was naked imperialism at its worst"
- This (unsourced) sentence is referring to American critics who felt that the war was "imperialism at its worst". No more, no less. It is original research for us to attribute that to "anti-Americanism". That is, as I offer earlier, an example of this article owning the term "anti-American" and running with it. It was the key reason why I forwarded the "anti-Americanism in various countries" to be deleted, which it duly was.--Zleitzen 11:54, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't spot the "Un-American" caveat at first reading, which maybe is a good reason to expand that area within the article. The second point, the long-standing debate, has to me been unresolved judging by the latter part of the article. The article still attributes sentiments of "anti-Americanism" to subjects where this is surely in dispute. For instance our article says;
Arrogance
May i suggest adding a section on american arrogance towards others and superiority complex, also an inability to admit to any wrong doing. Such as the killing of British soldiers in Iraq, and then denying it happened. People tend to become Anti-American for these reasons. J. Quinn 20th September 2006 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.111.213.247 (talk) 14:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
It's also because the american's are narrow minded and really unintelligent :-) --Frogsprog 14:53, 20 September 2006 (UTC) (but yes the killing of our soldiers is an outrage --Frogsprog 14:54, 20 September 2006 (UTC))
- No, we should not add such a section. Save blog posts for blogs. If you can source that an increase in Anti-Americanism, outside of the usual in a given country, has occured because of some incident or other perhaps there's place for it. Marskell 17:44, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
- Marksell is one of those canadian traitors who likes the US better than his own country because he likes the idea of a country where anyone can have a gun and get as much power as they want.. never mind --Frogsprog 14:11, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Frog. Usually I'm not pedantic, but I find your repeated comments unhelpful in the extreme
and am going to report this on the admin noticeboard.Marskell 15:27, 21 September 2006 (UTC) - Warned user. Marskell 15:36, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Frog. Usually I'm not pedantic, but I find your repeated comments unhelpful in the extreme
Propaganda thesis
In the lead, the article states:
- The propaganda thesis has itself been challenged as a form of Anti-Americanism[7] that seeks to frame the consequences of difficult US policy choices as evidence of a specifically American moral failure, as opposed to what may be unavoidable failures of a complicated foreign policy that comes with superpower status.[8]
I don't understand what this sentence is implying. I presume that it is referring to works such as Chomsky's Propaganda model in general, rather than a specific propaganda thesis of the term "anti-Americanism", which makes no reference to "American moral failure". I can't imagine why anyone would view the "anti-American"/propaganda thesis as an attempt to describe "American moral failure". This appears to be a mix up. Also, the references do not clarify this and thus I am none the wiser. Can anyone explain what I am missing?--Zleitzen 16:45, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- You might ask User:Cultural Freedom who added it (though he doesn't seem to edit much). The book source requires a page number and ideally a direct quote. Marskell 17:15, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- I think that should go - I don't believe that it is correctly interpreted. There is the term "anti-American" - then a critique of the term (ie. the propaganda thesis) - I am unconvinced that the sentence above constitutes a critique of the critique of the term. I think someone has got muddled up in all the critiques and has drifted off topic. --Zleitzen 17:37, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- The sentence makes sense only when read in the context of the preceding material and has to be parsed very carefully. The point it tries to make is legitimate but not all that important. Given that the point is marginal and is expressed obscurely, I favor deleting it. We can revisit the issue if someone comes up with a clearer way of presenting the concept. Raymond Arritt 19:07, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- If it's going then I'm not too concerned, Raymond, but one question - you say the point is legitimate, but could you clarify yourself what that point is? --Zleitzen 19:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- Not to answer for Raymond, but I think the point is "scrutiny of standard." Very crudely, the United States acts selfishly—as has, essentially, every nation-station (or pre-national polity) in history. In the case of the contemporary United States, its decisions are magnified given its global role. Thus people "hate" the United States because of Iraq but could not, say, identify Darfur or Chechnya on a map, where state-sponsored (or at least state-allowed) slaughter is greater (perhaps they can't find Iraq either--it just becomes a trope to criticize the US). Step two, after focusing on the American devil while ignoring others, is treating the devilishness as specific to Americans. And then you just wind up with crude bigotries as often as not. Above on this talk, for instance, "american's are narrow minded and really unintelligent :-)". Great point.
- The danger in analyzing the critique this way, however, is a type of naturalistic fallacy where, say, the rapacious Caesar or Khan of history somehow justifies contemporary American actions. Not so—I only mean that the addition might be defended as an introductory point of debate for this article. I was neither here nor there about it originally, but compromised with Cultural Freedom to let it in. Do leave a note on his talk if you remove it. Marskell 21:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
Introduction
Scanning the talk page above I see a proposal for the introduction that includes the sentence;
- In popular practice, a disparate variety of actions and attitudes critical of the United States have been labeled anti-Americanism, including hostility toward its government and culture.
I believe that the introduction should include, and be centred, around that sentence. In keeping with other introductions of disputed terms on Wikipedia. Labeled is the key word here and would set the tone for the article. We are discussing behaviour that has been labeled anti-American rather than discussing a bunch of people in Liverpool booing Condi Rice for her foreign policy, and other such people who have never been labeled Anti-American to our knowledge. In the article, we want to know who is being labeled anti-American, where, and most importantly - who is doing the labelling. Does anyone have any more thoughts as to whether this should be placed in the intro? --Zleitzen 21:58, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
- ^ Ceaser, James W. "A genealogy of Anti-Americanism", The Public Interest, Summer 2003.
- ^ O'Conner, Brendan. "A Brief History of Anti-Americanism from Cultural Criticism to Terrorism", Australasian Journal of American Studies, July 2004, pp. 77-92
- ^ O'Connor, Brendan, op. cit., p 78: "... Cold War (1945-1989) ... In this period the false and disingenuous labeling of objections to American policies as ‘anti-Americanism’ became more prominent."
- ^ Berlinski, Claire. Menace in Europe: Why the Continent's Crisis Is America's, Too (2006)
- ^ Kagan, Robert. Of Paradise and Power: America and Europe in the New World Order (2003)
- ^ Rodman, Peter W. The world’s resentment, The National Interest, Washington D.C., vol. 601, Summer 2001
- ^ [4]