Talk:Tokusatsu
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Naming
Respectfully suggest that because Magma Taishi was never known in English as Ambassador Magma, it makes no sense to force Space Giants to be Ambassador Magma. In English, the show was most widely known as Space Giants, this is an English-language wiki, therefore Space Giants is the appropriate name of this article. The Hokkaido Crow 29 June 2005 06:57 (UTC)
With all due respect, whether you know the show as Ambassador Magma, The Space Giants, Space Avenger, Monsters from Outer Space, etc., there's no denying that the character Ambassador Magma at least had a history.
One can always learn about The Space Giants through Ambassador Magma, just as one can learn about, say, Johnny Sokko and his Flying Robot through Giant Robo or Battle of the Planets through Gatchaman. Ryuuseipro
Japanese series with name changes are in an unusual position because due to the way fans use original sources, titles and characters are often more widely known by their non-American names in America than by their American names (cf. Usagi_Tsukino). Google shows 862 hits for "Ambassador Magma" and 853 for "Space Giants" (including several false hits). Ken Arromdee 18:28, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Racism/cultural differences
I will explain some of the changes I made in the section formerly called "Anti-Japanese sentiment." While I don't dispute that anti-Japanese sentiment and racism has existed in various forms, particularly in the US, I did not find that the information in the paragraph conclusively demonstrated this. The paragraph really describes the practice of adding familiar characters to increase the appeal in the target market, which happens on both sides of the Atlantic and Pacific. Consumers simply want characters and settings that they can identify with. That is an important thing to describe, but it does not necessarily equate to racism or anti-Japanese sentiments. Here are some other things I felt it necessary to change:
- Removed language regarding World War 2. While it is probably true that lingering tensions remained at this time, nothing in the paragraph supported this assumption.
- We cannot say that Americanization died down after the popularity of Godzilla and then demonstrate instances of Americanization still going strong after Godzilla. That doesn't make sense.
- The movies were really Westernized, not just Americanized. This specific paragraph mentioned attempts to penetrate Australian markets as well as North American markets (which presumably still include Canada and Mexico as of this writing). Unmentioned in this article were also attempts to penetrate Europe and Latin America.
- It is just not realistic to say that studios consider east Asian actors non-bankable. Studios have been making a ton of money in martial-arts and fantasy films since the 1970's, for example.
- Removed Perry Mason reference as it is superfluous to this article and is found in the relevant linked article.
All in all it's a good article and I enjoyed reading it.
Your revised version of my article is commendable. Except for one thing:
- "This specific paragraph mentioned attempts to penetrate Australian markets as well as North American markets (which presumably still include Canada and Mexico as of this writing)."
That was for Ultraman. For Ultraman: Towards the Future, Tsuburaya Productions was not trying to penetrate the Australian market, they were essentially trying to penetrate the North American market by way of Australia. Ultraman was already very popular Down Under. Ryuuseipro
Unequal POV
Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article. The author(s) are obviously sympathizing with the Tokusatsu creators way too much, labeling America as cynical and acting like these movies were bullied out of the limelight in the United States. The movies are well known among most of the population, and they are well liked, if for different reasons. With all due respect, you can't pretend a film is up there with Citizen Kane when it primarily relies on special effects and the special effects aren't too good. The Tokusatsu films are an important part of cinematic history, but they aren't any messiah.--67.184.163.248 23:48, 10 September 2005 (UTC)Ikiroid
Aside from the racism and Americanization issues mentioned earlier on the discussion page, there is also a serious problem with the article concerning NPOV in the section "Realism" and all of the sections after it until the end of the article.
Well, why don't you do something about it? You know, you can edit it yourself. I can't be the only one working on this article (and yes, I did the article you criticized, which another person here thoughtfully edited for me). Let's put our heads together.--Ryuuseipro 10:32pm, 11 November 2005
Then again, the BBC's Doctor Who successfully scared children for over 20 years with similar special effects. Somebody who knows more than I do might want to tie in tokusatsu to its worldwide legacy? Lisa Paul 08:30, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree with 67.184.163.248. The section "Perception of Tokusatsu in America" contains a lot of criticism of said perception instead of merely describing it, and the criticism is not attributed to anyone but instead stated as if it were absolutely right and the popular perception wrong. I think it would be better if this section were split in half, one describing what the popular peception is (was?) and then the counter-reaction to it. Besides, arguing who's right or wrong about the assessment of the quality (which is higly subjective) of some film type is not interesting in a reference work such as an encyclopedia. What one would rather read is a description of each POV, the reasons behind them and when and where and by whom such POV is held. The presentation (including emphasis) should also be organized accordingly.
Also, some of the language is not just POV, but rather unencyclopedic. "However, American fans like August Ragone and reporter Steve Ryfle have enlightened a skeptical media on this subject countless times, and people were profounded." Excuse me? Aside from the peculiar verbing of "profound", this is way too profuse for an encyclopedia :-) "enlightened" and "countless times" are both out, and so is "profounded" whether it's supposed to be "enlightened", "bewildered", "blown out of water" or whatever. Also wording like "Yes, some of these superheroes are altruistic, like" is not good, because it has "I'm trying to sell you this point and don't have enough convincing facts so I'm trying to make you a believer by speaking persuasively" written all over it. The normal policy is to describe the facts (including each POV if there are many, as there seem to be here) and let the reader make his own conclusions without preaching. 130.233.22.111 07:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Tone
While I'm going to steer clear of much of the controversy regarding this page, I will suggest omitting the use of exclamation marks. If this is to have the proper tone for a reference piece, then some of the enthusiasm implied within just doesn't work.
or even tokusatsu kantoku (特撮監督), which is Japanese for, appropriately enough, "special effects director"!
We're here to inform people of the concept, not convince them of its viability as a medium. Wikipedia is not an advertising medium - it is intended to be impartial and factual. Please always keep that in mind.
So now I return to adding the last touches (for tonight) on the Karaoke Revolution song list, in which the Japanese "anime songs" compilation inexplicably includes tokusatsu themes (and before anyone goes gallivanting off to blame the Americans, it was Konami who perpetrated that themselves). ^_^
Cheers!
Major cleanup needed
- In-line citations please, first of all.
- Please eliminate weasel words. Stuff like One of the things that Japanese live-action fantasy is usually criticized for by non-fans in America is not sourced. Who is saying this? All of this should be sourced.
- Fandom is not relevent here. It appears that some fan films are notable, but a major part of the "criticism" and the fandom sections appear to be pits so people can bash tokusatsu.
- Tone is an issue here. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia here to report facts, without any loaded language. "Sadly, the jargon suitmation is mostly extinct today" is not necessary. Just state that it's no longer used.
This article has six templates. I'd like to get it down to at least three. Hbdragon88 06:45, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- I almost destroyed the newly-renamed "United Sates view" because all it looks like is a pit of whiny complaints about Super Sentai vs. Power Rangers. Hbdragon88 07:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Tag overload
I'm really tempted to add something along the lines of the following to the page...
Another tag
Merge, the most sensible so far, although speedy deletion probably wouldn't be out of place. The only reason to have this as a separate page is as a peculiar kind of fancruft as one-upmanship.FasterPussycatWooHoo 12:09, 28 November 2006 (UTC)