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Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2019 November 23

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November 23

Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars

The "Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars" has to be renamed, since the French Revolutionary Wars ended in 25 March 1802, while the Austrian Empire was created only in 1804. The proposed accurate description should be: "Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars".(KIENGIR (talk) 10:56, 8 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]
Marcocapelle, please have in mind that the term "Austria" might be ambigous and recently we are fixing these problems with proper wikilinks in the related pages, after and issue and discussion, however despite the unliked "Austria" will remain part of many articles as soon the context is set in the lead or the infobox. However, partuclarly regarding your comment, Beaulieu was fighting for then the Habsburg Monarchy (inside of it was the Archduchy of Austria btw. among many other countries), but not the Austrian Empire that did not exist then. More accurately, what you refer was the Imperial Army of the Habsburgs, not solely anytime Austria, not even the members or commaders were just Austrian.(KIENGIR (talk) 11:41, 8 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]
  • That is a bit beside the point I was trying to make. We should have a category for the Imperial Army and a category for the Austrian Empire, but diffusion by war leads to biographies being in a multitude of those categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 11:54, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marcocapelle, You meant like "Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars"? In case please proceed with the renaming if everyone agrees, I never did that by a category, I do not wish to commit any technical mistake...Thank You.(KIENGIR (talk) 15:31, 8 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]
  • Rename I suspect the object is to cover the period 1790 (or 1792) to 1815. The category is well populated so that it should be Kept somehow. I would suggest Category:Austro-Hungarian military leaders 1790-1815. The period of the Revolutionary War may be an artefact of British history, as Austria was not at war with France for the whole period. Siblings may also need attention: the British sibling has one general in it, but there must be lots more. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:53, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    Peterkingiron, thank's for the support for renaming, but there are problems with the details you presented. This particular category is valid only until 1804 (because that year the Austrian Empire was created. The suggestion of "Austro-Hungarian military leaders 1790-1815" would cause a bigger problem, since Austro-Hungarian refers to Austria-Hungary that emerged only in 1867, on the other hand in the Imperial Army not just Austrian, Hungarian, but generals with other nationality were present. Hence, still my original proposal seems the best "Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars" or at least "Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars".(KIENGIR (talk) 13:00, 8 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]
Yes this is complicated, as is the whole notion of the Holy Roman Empire. Yes there were officers from other German states serving in the army, certainly in Turkish wars; and not as mere mercenaries. Perhaps Category:Hapsburg Imperial military leaders 1790-1815 would fit. This avoids a hiatus at 1801 (end of Revolutionary War) or 1804 (when HRE was replaced by Austrian Empire). There was a long period of war from the Revolution until Waterloo and the Congress of Vienna. The ruler throughout had the title of emperor, though the title changed. I think the 1867 transition was more about how Hungary was governed and the creation of a German Empire. Peterkingiron (talk) 11:37, 12 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Peterkingiron, I'add that HRE was not necessarily replaced by AE, we could only say a partial "transformation" along 1804-1806, better to say the HM's and HRE's overlapping titles, territories and assumed dominions etc. had been "clarified" in a way regarding the transformation. However, your point is as well seems fine. Let us now summarize the proposals until now, and maybe together with Marcocapelle you could eliminate at least two versions of the four proposals, thus soon we may propose our final candidate (and excuse me that I present your proposal with 'b' instead of 'p'):
(1) Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars
(2) Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars
(3) Category:Imperial Army
(4) Category:Habsburg Imperial military leaders 1790-1815(KIENGIR (talk) 18:01, 13 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]
To Marco's point, we should also consider what to do with Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by nationality. Laurel Lodged (talk) 08:27, 14 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
We should rename it as well (replace "nationality" with something else, since Habsburg Monarchy was not a country, not a nation, etc., what would be the best English word, affiliation?)(KIENGIR (talk) 19:10, 14 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 08:51, 20 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
MER-C, to your question:
1st task, rename Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars to one of the following:
(1) Category:Habsburg Monarchy military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars
(2) Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars
(3) Category:Imperial Army
(4) Category:Habsburg Imperial military leaders 1790-1815
2nd task:
rename Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by nationality to [[:Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by ''affiliation''?]](KIENGIR (talk) 18:20, 26 September 2019 (UTC))[reply]
Since the whole thread is silent for a while, I make my final proposals that should be accepted if noone objects:
  • 1st - chosen 2 - rename Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars -> Category:Habsburg Imperial Army military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, buidhe 22:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alternative , per earlier discussion:
  1. Split Category:Austrian Empire military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars to Category:Military leaders of the Imperial Army and Category:Military leaders of the Austrian Empire.
  2. Delete Category:Military leaders of the French Revolutionary Wars by nationality and subcats (except French) in a separate discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:04, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Spaceflight portal

Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT - There is only one portal that fits with this category and Portal:Spaceflight is already in Category:Transport portals so we don't need this subcategory with only one portal which fits with this. Pkbwcgs (talk) 10:57, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, buidhe 22:31, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Norwegian awards

Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, each of the categories only contains the eponymous article and a subcategory of recipients. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Monegasque awards

Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, each of the categories only contains the eponymous article and a subcategory of recipients. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Greek awards

Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, each of the categories only contains the eponymous article and a subcategory of recipients. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Polish awards

Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, each of the categories only contains the eponymous article and a subcategory of recipients. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Romanian awards

Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, each of the categories only contains the eponymous article and a subcategory of recipients. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:41, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Cloud infrastructure attacks & failures

Nominator's rationale: If the main article is Cloud computing issues, then this seems to be the name, but other suggestions could be as well. Brandmeistertalk 17:46, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Allotropes

Nominator's rationale: Following on from this upmerge on commons (commons:Commons:Categories for discussion/2019/11/Category:Allotropes), I propose that "This category is for articles giving an overview of allotropy or of the allotropes of particular elements. For articles about specific allotropes" is too limiting a scope for Category:Allotropes since would would exclude articles about several allotropes of a single element where there are not stand-alone articles for each allotrope (not members of "A category for materials which are an allotrope of a chemical element."), and we often have that situation. Thus we have a false distinction and poor navigability to find such articles. The article Allotropy is the only article on the actual theory of this topic, so I don't think having it together with all the articles on specific instances of that main-art would be a problem. If we have a bunch of articles on allotropy/allotropes of a certain element, we could easily have a subcat for that element, which still retains navigability and the main-vs-subtopic purpose of cats.
The previous CfD at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2014 September 12#Category:Allotropic materials by element decided to distinguish between materials and theory, but now 5 years later that doesn't seem to have worked out because there is only one on "theory" which is now being conflated with "multiple (vs single) material of a single element". DMacks (talk) 15:14, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • In principle, Prefer reverse merge but the subject needs some adjustment first. For the concept of allotropes to arise there must be two forms of an element. Accordingly to articles need to be moved down to a category allotropes of foo, before the merger is completed. the present target has a much better structure, to which the contents of the subject need to be fitted, but allotropes is the better name. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:22, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
As nominator, I'm ambivalent about which should be the name of the unified category. I chose "allotropy" to parallel commons and which is the current parent cat. DMacks (talk) 16:11, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Fauna of Saudi Arabia

Nominator's rationale: This category was deleted in 2018, but has been re-created without afaics any discussion.  As usual with such categories (created by an editor interested in the country rather than in biota) it's very incomplete (there are hundreds of species found in that country - e.g. see List of birds of Saudi Arabia).  It's better to categorize animals by regions - e.g. in Category:Fauna of the Arabian Peninsula and in categories such as Category:Endemic fauna of Saudi Arabia (where applicable). No upmerge is necessary because both pages in this category are already well categorized.  Suggest salt. DexDor (talk) 11:46, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Linguistics, Language, and the Public Award recipients

Nominator's rationale: delete per WP:OCAWARD. Note that we do not even have an article about this award. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:32, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Charlotte City Council members

Nominator's rationale: Rename to clarify that this article is only for those city council members from this city and not the many other the municipalities called Charlotte. TM 21:36, 7 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 10:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:27, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Speakers of the Iraqi Kurdistan Parliament

Nominator's rationale: Iraqi Kurdistan is a cultural and geographical region, while Kurdistan Region is the autonomous region which these topics pertain to. This can be compared to Spain v. Iberian Peninsula or Republic of Ireland v. Ireland. Regarding the merging proposals, we really don't need so similar categories. --Semsurî (talk) 17:18, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why should these topics remain as 'Iraqi Kurdistan' when it is misleading though? Category:Iraqi Kurdistan also states in the intro: "Iraqi Kurdistan is a geopolitical region of Iraq." which is also ambiguous. What does geopolitical even mean? Category:Kurdistan Region should be created and every topic that has to do with the autonomous region and not geography should be moved to that. --Semsurî (talk) 19:06, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Geography-related topics should remain under "Iraqi Kurdistan" categories, while those that pertain to the political entity should be moved to 'Kurdistan Region'-relate categories. Anything else is simply absurd. We don't have a category named Category:Media in Anatolia either. --Semsurî (talk) 19:09, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, I have meanwhile created Category:Kurdistan Region. Iraqi Kurdistan, as such, was not a political entity, so it does not make too much sense to have a tree for Iraqi Kurdistan as if it was a political entity. Generally I would prefer splitting the content of these categories between Iraq and Kurdistan Region. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:03, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I can support that solution. --Semsurî (talk) 21:02, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content
Nominator's rationale: The current name refers to a cultural and geographical area, while the second is the name of the autonomous region Kurdistan Region. The article is about the latter. Semsurî (talk) 22:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I will propose renaming for similar categories as well. --Semsurî (talk) 16:45, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The broader discussion is on tomorrow's page. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:16, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:National parks in Conwy County Borough

Nominator's rationale: merge per WP:SMALLCAT, the three categories only contain Snowdonia. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC) Marcocapelle (talk) 21:07, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:20, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Comedy game shows

Nominator's rationale: Duplicative of Category:1980s American game shows. Not enough WP:N to break out from Category:1980s American game shows, nor no WP:V source defining subgroup from main. AldezD (talk) 18:27, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Also nominating Category:1930s American comedy game shows, Category:1940s American comedy game shows, Category:1950s American comedy game shows, Category:1960s American comedy game shows, Category:1970s American comedy game shows, Category:1980s American comedy game shows, Category:1990s American comedy game shows, Category:2000s American comedy game shows, Category:2010s American comedy game shows. AldezD (talk) 18:29, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:20, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Venetian archaeological sites in Greece

Nominator's rationale: "Archaeological" is redundant and possibly misleading, e.g. a still standing set of city walls is not, strictly speaking, an "archaeological site". Constantine ✍ 13:14, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:27, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Upmerge to Category:Archaeological sites in Greece. Do we need to have every type of archaeological site from every country when there are only two or three in some categories? I don't see the advantage to this over-categorization for the sake of category consistency with the whole. Alternatively...
Dual upmerge to Category:Archaeological sites in Greece and Category:Venetian archaeological sites. --Doug Mehus T·C 15:57, 24 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Powermasters

Nominator's rationale: Category only consists of four pages, one of which is a redirect and one will be deleted within days. The rest might also get deleted within months. There are simply too few pages to deserve a separate category. JIP | Talk 12:32, 15 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MER-C 09:27, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Plaza Sésamo

Nominator's rationale: Eponymous category for a television show without the volume of content necessary to warrant one: apart from the eponym itself, the only other content here is a single character from it. Bearcat (talk) 03:05, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Spectacles

Nominator's rationale: Virtually unmaintainable category for a concept that is too broad in scope to be usefully WP:DEFINING of its contents. Just seven topics have been filed here: four specific opening ceremonies of sports festivals and three theatrical performance events, and that's literally it. But let's consider what else could be filed here: every other opening and closing ceremony of every other sporting event; every concert tour by any major pop or rock artist who's ambitious enough to do more than just stand there and sing; award ceremonies; art and music and film festivals; public parades; dance balls; every performance art show; and on and so forth. Literally anything that fits the definition of "an event that is memorable for the appearance it creates" would belong here, which makes the category so broad as to be effectively pointless because it can subjectively encompass the vast majority of all entertainment events that exist at all. Bearcat (talk) 02:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Spectacle

Nominator's rationale: WP:SMALLCAT for an eponymous concept, one book about that concept and one film adaptation of that book. This is not enough content to need a dedicated category. Bearcat (talk) 02:35, 23 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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