Wikipedia talk:Canvassing
Origins of this guideline
This guideline was originally part of Wikipedia:Spam. For discussion about splitting it off, see Wikipedia talk:Spam#WP:CANVAS? -- John Broughton | Talk 02:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
External poll
On german wikipdia user:Karen thomä is doing a poll among the 500 most active users for her thesis in communication science (university Dresden) [1]. Therefore she asked e.g. all these 500 users on their discussion to help. She registered new and only did a few edits in namespace (because wikipedians asked her to). Would such behavior be canvassig on english wikipedia? -- 172.177.110.155 08:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- This would fall under the WP:SPAM guideline - this is spamming to get participants for a poll, not to directly influence an on-wiki discussion. In the past, this kind of thing has also been controversial, as it is an annoyance and "taking advantage" of Wikipedia even though it is not for commercial purposes. There's one exception I know of where it was specifically OK'ed by the Wikimedia Foundation beforehand so that incident fizzled (IIRC). But in general it's not OK. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-31 08:48Z
Changes
I've made a number of changes and introduced some new text, please comment. —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-31 08:45Z
Some of the changes I made:
- I replaced the "Alternatives" section about adding wikilinks to articles because it didn't really apply to canvassing. I can see how it would appl to non-canvassing internal talkpage spamming but I don't think that has been a problem at all, anyway it can stay at WP:SPAM. I have rewritten the alternatives in terms of how to get wider discussion without targeting individual editors
- I integrated the "friendly notice" section into guidelines, avoiding saying "it's okay to canvass in some situations" but without really explaining anything.
- I added sections on "if you have canvassed", "if others have canvassed"
- "Editors may be blocked by administrators if they continue canvassing after being warned" - this wasn't there before but I believe consensus supports it.
- Re-factored —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-31 09:23Z
- I would recommend making the guideline descriptive rather than prescriptive. So "Editors have been blocked by administrators" reflects the history of responses to canvassing rather than telling admins what to do. The case-by-case decisionmaking on repeat canvassing should still occur at WP:ANI. ~ trialsanderrors 23:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I can see how descriptive rather than prescriptive guidelines are less controversial, but isn't there enough support for a prescriptive one? With multiple ArbCom rulings and such. —Quarl (talk) 2007-01-01 22:05Z
- Yeah but if the ArbCom rules on something we can just link to their ruling and let it stand as status quo on the issue. ~ trialsanderrors 06:21, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- I can see how descriptive rather than prescriptive guidelines are less controversial, but isn't there enough support for a prescriptive one? With multiple ArbCom rulings and such. —Quarl (talk) 2007-01-01 22:05Z
- I would recommend making the guideline descriptive rather than prescriptive. So "Editors have been blocked by administrators" reflects the history of responses to canvassing rather than telling admins what to do. The case-by-case decisionmaking on repeat canvassing should still occur at WP:ANI. ~ trialsanderrors 23:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
"Friendly notice" section
I don't really like the "Friendly notice" section, because it seems to be saying "it's okay to canvass in some situations" but not really explaining anything. Thoughts on removing or improving it? —Quarl (talk) 2006-12-31 08:52Z
- I might have to dig into the WP:SPAM archives for this, but I seem to remember it states that you can ask editors who are experts in a topic for an expert opinion. On the last version I agree, it was uninformative:
- "If there are a small handful of editors who share your taste and/or philosophy, it is sometimes acceptable to contact them with regard to a specific issue as long as it does not become disruptive. This is more acceptable if they have made an unsolicited request to be kept informed, and absolutely unacceptable if they have asked you to stop."
- ~ trialsanderrors 09:15, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Internal spamming
Re your comment at WT:SPAM#WP:CANVAS, I think WP:SPAM should solely deal with commercial interests, so "internal spamming" should be listed here even though it shares a name with external spamming. Unsolicited broadcasting of your efforts is frowned upon, while narrowcasting (sending it to a few editors with whom you share a collaborative relationship) might be acceptable. It is always to ask in advance if it is acceptable, and ongoing narrowcasts should be replaced with a Wikiproject. ~ trialsanderrors 09:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Concerns
This page seems to entirely change the positive view, and clear guidelines about canvassing. At the very least, I think we should remove the "guideline" template from the top, since it's such a dramatic change. - jc37 10:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean with "positive view", but I changed the tag. ~ trialsanderrors 11:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- Jc37 - it would be extremely helpful if you could point out where this policy is "dramatically different" from established policy at WP:SPAM. The intent here certainly is NOT to chart a new direction, but rather to split an existing guideline in two and clean it up a bit. As such, the "new" guideline should NOT have "dramatic" differences; I'm sure any such introduced are mistakes. Again, specifics, PLEASE. John Broughton | Talk 21:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
First, my great apologies for not being clearer. (Your request for clarification is one that I often request as well... sigh - I'll chalk it up to lack of sleep : ) - When responding, my main concern was that this was an attempt to change direction, which made the "guideline" tag seem at least a bit premature.
As for what I mean(t), there is a tonality to this page that seems to differ from that at WP:SPAM, and several things listed there would seem to have been changed here. When I return later I'll see about doing a more detailed comparison of the two. - jc37 21:35, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Is this still forthcoming? ~ trialsanderrors 19:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you very much for reminding me : ) - It gets to be so easy to be distracted by so much on Wikipedia : ) - I'll finish checking my watchlist, and then this will be my first priority today : ) - jc37 20:04, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Responding below. - jc37 13:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Votestacking vs. campaigning
I did a bit of moving around and copyediting, but I'm not all sure what the difference is. Votestacking = soliciting votes for XfD, campaigning = soliciting votes for RFA? We might be able to merge those two sections into one, or we should clarify the difference. ~ trialsanderrors 22:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, I would say the words mostly mean the same thing with a very subtle difference: votestacking is an event, i.e. what has happened when a debate has been (successfully) biased, and campaigning is an action, i.e. the act of the perpetrator trying (possibly succeeding) to effect votestacking. I've merged the two sections. —Quarl (talk) 2007-01-01 00:23Z
Off-Wiki canvassing
There seems to be no mention of off-Wiki canvassing. This could be done by e-mail (virtually undetectable, of course) or on another Wiki or forum.--Runcorn 22:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- There's already this statement: Canvassing also includes the use of a custom signature to automatically append some promotional message to every signed post, or other means such as through e-mail. Is there some way to word it better? We could add in the "Admin involvement" section: Note that although canvassing in external fora may not be directly blockable by Wikipedia administrators, the effects are easily be detected and the user blocked on Wikipedia. Or is that too BEANSy? —Quarl (talk) 2007-01-01 00:23Z
- I would add that external canvassing towards people not already established editors becomes a meatpuppet exercise, something also covered by WP:SOCK. —Quarl (talk) 2007-01-01 00:25Z
- Yes, I missed the ref to other means. I would be very unhappy about blocking anyone for off-Wikipedia activity.--Runcorn 18:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think the "e-mail" refers to Wikipedia-linked email, per Wikipedia:Emailing users. Using that feature to canvass IS something that users should be subject to blocking for. But otherwise, no, things like F2F and IRC and private emailing shouldn't be covered by this policy, and perhaps the best way to deal with them is to so state. John Broughton | Talk 22:06, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I missed the ref to other means. I would be very unhappy about blocking anyone for off-Wikipedia activity.--Runcorn 18:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would add that external canvassing towards people not already established editors becomes a meatpuppet exercise, something also covered by WP:SOCK. —Quarl (talk) 2007-01-01 00:25Z
Extent
How does this proposed policy apply to activities not involving deletion or adminship, such as requests for article peer reviews (i.e. [2]), proposed WikiProjects, proposed awards/barnstars (i.e. [3]), and Good/Featured article candidates? As an example, would posting a message on WikiProject Cetaceans regarding an ongoing FAC discussion about an article on a species of whale be prohibited? (i.e. [4])
- WikiProjects usually do their own monitoring and listing of AfD debates at least has (tacit?) community approval. The standard is to add a short notice to the debate like This debate has been added to WikiProject Cetaceans deletion sorting. Maybe this should be made explicit. I don't think FAC debates are treated differently. ~ trialsanderrors 06:19, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Thanks to Radiant! for picking this up. I guess no one here has heard of this before. I flipped the arrows though since it looks like no one else has either, and even though the intent seems to be similar Multiposting doesn't seem to have the community input to call itself a guideline. ~ trialsanderrors 18:46, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- Wow - I've been building an index to Wikipedia for several months now, and never came across that one - perhaps because it had, prior to today, a total of six incoming wikilinks, five of which were from user or talk space. Anyway, a suggestion - the "Forum shopping" section in this guideline never fit in well at all, in my opinion - one doesn't think of that when thinking of spam or canvassing. I suggest merging that section OUT of this guideline and into the "Multiposting" guideline, and keeping the two separate. And adding a few links - in this policy and elsewhere - to that semi-orphaned guideline so that it's not almost totally invisible. John Broughton | Talk 22:26, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think WP:MULTI (if that's the supposed shortcut) says anything more than WP:CANVAS does in one sentence: "
Internal spammingMultiposting is advertising one's editorial efforts to a large number of editors without intent to influence a debate. It is often considered annoying by the recipients and also discouraged. Editors with whom you share a collaborative relationship on the other hand might like to hear about your work. If in doubt, you should ask beforehand." And to avoid what WP:MULTI warns against, too many forums for similar ideas I tink we can just change "Internal spamming" to "multiposting" and redirect it here. ~ trialsanderrors 02:20, 4 January 2007 (UTC)- There are really two separate concepts here: (1) I'm doing this neat thing, would you like to comment/join - more information is at [___location]?, compared to (2) I have this problem, and here are all the details - can you help? For the first, internal spamming is the best label, in my opinion. For the second, forum shopping is probably the best label, because "multiposting" could be taken as covering the first category as well.
- I don't think WP:MULTI (if that's the supposed shortcut) says anything more than WP:CANVAS does in one sentence: "
- Not only are the types of postings different, but the solutions to the problem are different: for the first, just delete the internal spam; for the second, pick the best central ___location, move any comments at other locations into that central ___location; and leave a note at the other locations about where the central ___location is. And the volume of posts is different too: forum shopping exists even if a request for action is posted only in two places, while the threshold for what is "internal spamming" is certainly much more than two postings. John Broughton | Talk 13:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- On re-reading WP:MULTI I agree. They should stay as separate concepts. Whether they should stay on separate pages is another question. I think there is enough similarity to discuss them in context. ~ trialsanderrors 21:48, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
- Not only are the types of postings different, but the solutions to the problem are different: for the first, just delete the internal spam; for the second, pick the best central ___location, move any comments at other locations into that central ___location; and leave a note at the other locations about where the central ___location is. And the volume of posts is different too: forum shopping exists even if a request for action is posted only in two places, while the threshold for what is "internal spamming" is certainly much more than two postings. John Broughton | Talk 13:46, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Welcome Canvassing
I dont mind being canvassed, and don't really understand why it is bad form, and it may be appropriate to have a "Welcomes Canvassing" userbox.Belbo Casaubon 18:36, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe you mean that you don't mind being multiposted. Canvassing is the attempt to influence debates by rallying likeminded editors, and it is bad form no matter if you're complicit in it or not. ~ trialsanderrors 22:54, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe what I am saying is that if a debate is worth having then it is worth including as many interested parties as possible, and I don't mind being invited, it expands the mind and encourages participation.Belbo Casaubon 23:27, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
- If that's the case you should sign up to WikiProjects that monitor deletion debates (an help with the monitoring yourself). ~ trialsanderrors 23:29, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't mind being canvassed either. I'm a mature adult, and I really think I should be able to make up my own mind without the self-appointed minders who cite this proposed policy censoring my talk page, despite my posting a notice there explicitly asking them not to. It seems to me that in terms of Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines I have every right to receive these messages, and their removal is therefore vandalism. And that's in terms of existing guidelines, not this proposal for which I hope no consensus is likely. Andrewa 11:12, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- WP:SPAM#Canvassing is an existing guideline and covers the same issues. This article was solely created for convenience. ~ trialsanderrors 19:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Further, it doesn't matter if 20% or 50% or even 100% of users don't mind being solicited for their opinions or comments. The issue is whether such solicitation improves the outcomes of discussion about candidates, deleting articles, etc. It is the consensus of those here at Wikipedia that in fact canvassing makes such processes worse. Canvassing encourages cliques, log-rolling, treating discussions like votes, partisanship, and a host of other ills (yes, I exaggerate, but still ... ) that run counter to building a good encyclopedia. Whether some people are annoyed by it is irrelvant. Personally, I find it flattering to be asked to get involved, as long as the volume of such requests is small and targeted. So what? John Broughton | Talk 20:11, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with some of this, but I must point out that there is no consensus to adopt this particular guideline, and I think you'd find consensus lacking for some of the other points you make here too. Andrewa 23:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, WP:SPAM#Canvassing is an existing guideline, and it does not say quite the same things. So, when someone chooses to cite this proposed guideline instead... well, they shouldn't. If they want to cite both, that's fine. Andrewa 23:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hard to say if that actually makes a difference without looking at the case. Might've been been an editor who saw the note that this is being spun out but didn't notice we trying to edit the content. No matter the actual language, in spirit they should be the same. ~ trialsanderrors 02:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, WP:SPAM#Canvassing is an existing guideline, and it does not say quite the same things. So, when someone chooses to cite this proposed guideline instead... well, they shouldn't. If they want to cite both, that's fine. Andrewa 23:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see that it makes a lot of difference. WP:SPAM#Canvassing is a guideline. This is a proposal. The guideline is citable as such, and justifies for example blocking persistent offenders. This is not and does not. Perhaps it will become a guideline, or even a policy, I'd like that actually, if the problems with the current version can be solved. But I don't hold out a lot of hope of that, frankly. The issues are very tricky IMO, and what is more serious, some of those involved in the debate seem to underestimate just how tricky. Andrewa 03:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- This is just useless wikilawyering. ~ trialsanderrors 05:34, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see that it makes a lot of difference. WP:SPAM#Canvassing is a guideline. This is a proposal. The guideline is citable as such, and justifies for example blocking persistent offenders. This is not and does not. Perhaps it will become a guideline, or even a policy, I'd like that actually, if the problems with the current version can be solved. But I don't hold out a lot of hope of that, frankly. The issues are very tricky IMO, and what is more serious, some of those involved in the debate seem to underestimate just how tricky. Andrewa 03:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Your opinion is noted. Suggest you reread WP:ATTACK. I assume you're familiar with Wikipedia:WikiLawyering. Andrewa 02:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I'm talking about WP:WL #3. And WP:ATTACK still says "Remarks describing an editor's actions and made without involving their personal character should not be construed as personal attacks." ~ trialsanderrors 21:51, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Your opinion is noted. Suggest you reread WP:ATTACK. I assume you're familiar with Wikipedia:WikiLawyering. Andrewa 02:12, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Canvassing (the word)
Ok, there seems to be a misunderstanding of what the verb "to canvass" means. This page presumes that it's equivilant to "votestacking", ie that when canvassing, one is only going after opinions that match the certain outcome. That's not true (see Canvassing, for example). Canvassing is not dissimilar to polling. The idea is to get other people involved in the discussion.
Canvassing is a "tool", and as such can be used positively, or in ways which someone may not see as positive. Some examples listed at WP:SPAM are/were: "friendly notice", "campaigning", "and "votestacking". Essentially, canvassing to those interested in the topic is fine. Canvassing to those interested in a topic, with the intent to votestack, or some form of POV-push is not-so-fine.
I'm concerned that in re-writing the sections from WP:SPAM, the "just fine" aspect of canvassing is being/has been written out, even to the point of mis-defining the word canvassing itself.
I started to edit the page to re-integrate the sections from WP:SPAM, but I think I would like some discussion about this first. - jc37 13:47, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't notice the "friendly notice" section disappeared. I agree it should go back in. The "Problems with canvassing" section seems to get the definition right, but the intro paragraph adds the "further one's side" element, so that should be corrected too. I think it was ok to merge the campaiging and votestacking sections, or do you see a reason to keep them separate? ~ trialsanderrors 21:56, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
| Accepted | ↔ | Not accepted |
| Limited posting | ↔ | Mass posting |
| AND | OR | |
| Neutral in tone | ↔ | POV pushing/soliciting |
| AND | OR | |
| Bipartisan | ↔ | Partisan |
Is this a fair representation of the current accepted norms? ~ trialsanderrors 22:03, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
- That's a good start. The problem is, who decides what is partisan? Who decides what is limited posting?
- Feel free to have a look at the alleged spam removals I've reverted on my talk page. Just look for any revert by me in my talk page history.
- I do not understand how anyone can claim that these are damaging to Wikipedia, especially when I have explicitly invited them. On the other hand, a proposed guideline that authorises uncontrolled and unwanted reverting of my talk page is a bit scary. Andrewa 03:27, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is, who decides what is partisan? Who decides what is limited posting?
- Community consensus, the ArbCom, our conflict resolution mechanisms.
- Just look for any revert by me in my talk page history.
- Diffs? ~ trialsanderrors 05:41, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- No, community consensus will not be part of the process if this guideline is adopted. The consensus will be to adopt it; Then it will be up to individuals to interpret it. And my feeling is that as it stands it would end up losing us a lot of editors, because for every one who takes it to dispute resolution, many others will just leave.
- All I'm asking is that you leave messages left for me on my talk page alone. Is that unreasonable? Do you really think I'm the only one who would like this?
- I'll post the diffs when I get a moment. They aren't hard to find. Andrewa 05:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Lst time I checked I never posted or removed anything on your talk page. You're not exactly making sense here. It's also not a question of whether "this guideline will be adopted". The guideline on canvassing is already adopted and has been for a long time, it's just that as of now it's located at WP:SPAM#Canvassing. The branching out and editing has no policyshifting objective, but simply to separate two very different activities (external spamming and internal canvassing) and explain them on different pages. Further edits simply had the goal to clarify the terminology, and Jc37 had reasonable objections to the edits, so we reset it to a proposal. If we revert to the original version, it automatically turns into a guideline as a copy of the text in WP:SPAM#Canvassing. ~ trialsanderrors 06:21, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- I have never said that any changes to my talk page were made by you.
- Just to clarify, when I say if this guideline is adopted, I mean Wikipedia:Canvassing, of which this is the talk page. As to whether there is a policy shift objective, that is irrelevant, the point is that there appears to me to be a policy shift consequence. And it's a bad one. Andrewa 09:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- It's certainly not my intention to create a policy shift, simply to clarify the terms and include related content on the same page. (Not speaking for others here, but I doubt a policy shift has consensus.) And I still haven't seen anything from you that says "This wouldn't have happened under WP:SPAM but now it's done under WP:CANVASS. ~ trialsanderrors 21:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, when I say if this guideline is adopted, I mean Wikipedia:Canvassing, of which this is the talk page. As to whether there is a policy shift objective, that is irrelevant, the point is that there appears to me to be a policy shift consequence. And it's a bad one. Andrewa 09:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Comment: I reverted the table above to my original edit. Andrewa's John Broughton's change was
| Not limited to expected supporters | ↔ | Targeted to expected supporters |
instead of partisan↔bipartisan. I don't disagree with the new wording (actually I do, but that's another issue), but I would prefer that my comments remain intact. ~ trialsanderrors 07:57, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- That change was not made by me. Andrewa 09:55, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Oops. I apologize and corrected the comment. ~ trialsanderrors 19:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- No probs. Thanks for using strikeout to preserve the threads. Andrewa 02:06, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Oops. I apologize and corrected the comment. ~ trialsanderrors 19:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Responding to the initial commenta at the top of this thread:
- I like the comparison table above. Though we should make clear that the dividing line between each side of the table is rather subjective.
- I don't think that there's a problem with merging campaigning and votestacking, though maybe "campaigning" could even be seen as a neutral term? Votestacking would seem to be the widespread term for the negative action, the problem, of course is the debate over Voting is evil/Voting is good, which this could be seen as becoming a part of by using the word "vote". Maybe we should discuss what would be a "good" term for negative canvassing? - jc37 14:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think the term you're looking for is push-polling. ~ trialsanderrors 19:00, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
There is also a difference in effects. Canvassing with a partisan message or canvassing a partisan crowd creates a negative externality on the community (as discussed by John Broughton above), so editors cannot "opt out". Bipartisan canvassing of uninvolved editors doesn't automatically create an externality, but it annoys many editors, so editors can potentially opt out and declare that they're open to solicitation. This seems to be Andrewa's main issue. Technically we could creatwe a userbox & category & template to "neutralize" this:
- Userbox "This user likes to be informed about ongoing debates."
- Category Category:Wikipedians open for canvassing
- Template {{opinionrequested}}
- "Hello: Your opinion on Article is requested. ~~~~"
My hunch is that this will die out because people will eventually get annoyed with being canvassed, but it seems that would be an acceptable form of canvassing. ~ trialsanderrors 19:15, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- I think that the above is a great idea : ) - jc37 22:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Likewise. And presumably, people who disregarded this template and removed legitimate messages would be liable for sanctions such as blocks, desysopping, and the like, which alleged canvassers already suffer. The rules cut both ways. Andrewa 03:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I have grave doubts that you can find consensus for that unless there is strong evidence for bad faith. ~ trialsanderrors 09:48, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Likewise. And presumably, people who disregarded this template and removed legitimate messages would be liable for sanctions such as blocks, desysopping, and the like, which alleged canvassers already suffer. The rules cut both ways. Andrewa 03:25, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
| + | This user likes getting friendly notices. |
Wikipedia:Canvassing/Friendly ← userbox. ~ trialsanderrors 00:52, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Intro/friendly reminder
I removed the intro paragraph and restored the friendly reminder section, as it seem those two changes don't have consensus. ~ trialsanderrors 06:28, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- You know, in looking over the page...
- Since Votestacking has been merged with Campaigning...
- Perhaps this page should be renamed "Wikipedia:Campaigning". Since nearly the entire page has to do with that.
- This would give us the "best of both worlds". WP:SPAM links would still be accurate when dealing with all sorts of multiposts/campaigning/friendly notices, and yet the bulk of the "Campaigning" information can be split to this article.
- What do you think? - jc37 14:30, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hm, based on my thoughts in the above thread, maybe we should figure out a "better" term for negative canvassing (and by corollary this page). - jc37 14:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would prefer to keep all advice on internal solicitation on one page, that was the reason for the spin-off in the first place. Spamming and solicitation are very unrelated activities, while soliciting, campaining and multiposting are related. So editors want to find out in one place where they differ and what is acceptable. ~ trialsanderrors 18:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Ok. That said, then, I think that maybe we should refactor the page into acceptable/unacceptable sections, to make the dividing lines clearer. Also, take a look at the section "Dealing with canvassing". It still has the sense that all canvassing is evil. - jc37 22:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- We can always revert to the version at WP:SPAM if this one is controversial. I have pretty much no opinion on that part. On refactoring, I agree, that's why I'm trying to organize the concepts into the table. ~ trialsanderrors 00:27, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Ok. That said, then, I think that maybe we should refactor the page into acceptable/unacceptable sections, to make the dividing lines clearer. Also, take a look at the section "Dealing with canvassing". It still has the sense that all canvassing is evil. - jc37 22:59, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would prefer to keep all advice on internal solicitation on one page, that was the reason for the spin-off in the first place. Spamming and solicitation are very unrelated activities, while soliciting, campaining and multiposting are related. So editors want to find out in one place where they differ and what is acceptable. ~ trialsanderrors 18:58, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hm, based on my thoughts in the above thread, maybe we should figure out a "better" term for negative canvassing (and by corollary this page). - jc37 14:38, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
(undent) "Campaigning" is definitely a better term (IMHO); it even can be seen as stretching far enough to include forum shopping (as in, campaigning for a friendly admin). WP:SPAM can then include posts on user talk pages that are intended for commercial, religious, or similar purposes (which is what people think of as "spam"), while "campaigning" has to do with trying to get other editors to do something within Wikipedia. John Broughton | Talk 20:52, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- In the table further down I've defined campaigning as canvassing with a partisan message, e.g. "Go here and vote Keep". So it would be a subset of canvassing. ~ trialsanderrors 22:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
CfD canvassing
Just by happenstance I was canvassed last night via e-mail to participate in a CfD discussion. I invited the interested editors to discuss this here. My comments about the solicitation:
- The invitation was neutral in tone and in my opinion the intent was to diversify the group of commenters, not to push a POV. So this was above board. Sometimes discussions suffer because they only attract a partisan crowd due to subject matter.
- The solicitation wasn't announced in the discussion (or I didn't see an announcement). That's the first problem.
- The solicitation came by email. That's two problems in one: 1. I mostly don't like getting emails on Wikipedia matters, that's what my talk page is for; and 2. Using email gives this solicitation an air of surreptitiousness.
I think most of the problems can be solved with my proposal above. 1. Stick to transparent means of soliciting. 2. Announce your efforts during the discussion. 3. Solicit opinions only from editors who asked for it. ~ trialsanderrors 19:33, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'll probably ruffle a few feathers here but I think CFD's are often under-advertised. Its the nature of category pages that very few editors contribute to the page and so don't have them on their watchlists, but many editors use them. Theres been a few cases where the first I've seen of a CFD debate is after the event when an admin deletes a category from an article I've been watching. CFD tend to be a small select group of editors who watch it frequently, and I guess most other editors don't have the time to regually watch it. Say take Category:Wikipedian martial artists, which is up for merging, this has not been publicised anwhere that I can see, yet it effects 45 users, most of whome are probably unaware of the change. This is itself is probably an uncontriversal discussion but there have been similar more contensious ones which can slip under the radar. --Salix alba (talk) 21:12, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
- Many things are underadvertised. My most recent blunder as an admin (I do make them) was not to inform the relevant Wikiproject before doing an uncontested but listed move. I just assumed they were watching, and apparently they weren't.
- The existing guideline is not perfect by any means, IMO it's already too stringent. One of the people who canvassed me recently was blocked for 48 hours for doing it, despite the fact that none of the "victims" of this canvassing complained, and the reason given for the block was a proposed guideline. What a way to treat a newbie!
- But on the other hand, the canvassing was successful, in that the decision went the way the canvasser wanted, and was quite close so it was probably affected. How do we correct that, if correction is needed? Canvas people on the other side?
- Next time, I guess this user (if they remain one) will contact me by email instead. What has that gained Wikipedia? The mind boggles.
- The spirit of Wiki is openness, lack of censorship, minimal control. This will undoubtedly be challenged as Wikipedia grows, we'll experiment with tighter control. This proposal is part of that. Some of these experiments have already been successful. But IMO this one is just instruction creep, and of course that compounds the problem of getting meaningful participation from the community as a whole. We'll see. Hang in there! Andrewa 00:00, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- You have no obligation whatsoever to inform a WikiProject. I don't know who told you that, but WikiProjects have no status that gives them right to be informed. If they want to be informed they can organize the monitoring among members. The idea that it is other editors' obligation to keep a WikiProject they have no connection to abreast is ridiculous on its face. We have gazillions of WikiProjects and 80% are moribund. Oh and campaigning for a deletion debate is unacceptable under WP:SPAM#Canvassing too. ~ trialsanderrors 00:40, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Quite so, see my response at Talk:ECW World Championship#Proposed move reversal. But IMO goodwill is far more important than the rules are in making Wikipedia work. Goodwill will overcome the faults in the rules, but regardless of how good the rules are they won't overcome a lack of goodwill.
- I don't think that the result would have been changed if the Wikiproject had been informed, and even if it had been changed I don't think Wikipedia would be any better for that. It's one of my principles that if consensus can't be reached, then it doesn't really matter which way the decision goes. This is a bit radical perhaps, but I can't see how else it can work, and it does. Wikipedia is proof that it does.
- But, if I'd informed the Wikiproject, I think we'd have reached a more comfortable decision, and Wikipedia would have been better for that. My blunder was not an obligation unfulfilled, there was no obligation as you rightly say. But it was an opportunity missed. Andrewa 01:57, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I doubt that. You would've bought into the "Who moved my cheese" mindset that seems to prevail in the Project, and that never improves an organization. We provide reasonable mechanisms to keep those who care informed, but we're not there to drag people to the trough by their noserings. ~ trialsanderrors 02:50, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- ISTM that I bought into that anyway, and that's part of the essential romance (;-> of WP:RM. It's an interesting Wikiproject, who would have thought that an entire industry of self-confessed fakers would attract such a following? But the job of a sysop isn't to make such judgements, fortunately. Not sure about the noserings, neither the wrestlers nor the fans seem the types to wear them. I could be wrong. Andrewa 03:34, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- The key to the issue that User:Trialsanderrors raised is, I think, the transparency; I think that's best accomplished by placing a discreet notice on the AFD/CFD/whatever about solicitations. It could even be a small template: {{solicitations to:|x}} where x is "User/reason/by User:" / "Project/reason/by User:". Then anybody can add in their own list of solicitations. ... However, I think that it should be framed positively, as in "Transparency about soliciations is good form; here's a template to facilitate." with no adverse consequences. Sometimes people are a bit quick off the trigger to assume bad faith w/r/t failure to adhere to the increasingly arcane practices of the wikipedia community.
- Second - Specifying method of solicitation doesn't seem helpful, because there are probably users who prefer email or whatever. And it can't be enforced. And it's artificial IMO. Best to just leave it to out.
- --lquilter 19:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think this guideline should be about enforcement in the first place. It should be the first port of call for users who think they need to draw attention to a discussion that suffers from lack of attention/inbuilt bias by the editors who pay attention etc. The message should be 1. It's probably not a good idea, and 2. If you still think it's a good idea here is what you should do to keep it above board. I'd wager to say that blocking for canvassing is rare, and that most canvassing that occurs is in the "yellow" range that doesn't lead to penalties but that sidetracks the actual discussion into an "Is it ok to canvass?" discussion. If we can cut down on that and move some of the yellow canvassing attempts into the green range then this guideline serves a purpose. On email and transparency, if we actually implement the userbox solution and notify the discussion that they canvassed all willing editors then I believe transparency requirements are fulfilled, even if some of the editors prefer email notification. That's very similar to the "This discussion was included in XYZ" notifiers used by WikiProjects. ~ trialsanderrors 19:59, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I like the WikiProject notifiers you mention -- that's what I was thinking of, but something that could consolidate those notices with notices about other kinds of solicitations. Are there examples of the userboxes in operation for this kind of function that we could point to? I only look at them when I look at user pages. --lquilter 20:29, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Possible solutions
One solution to the issues raised above, is to expand Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting into Wikipedia:WikiProject Discussion sorting per my comment on Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Deletion_sorting#Expanding_project_scope. This would allow all WikiProjects to maintain a centralized watchlist for current discussions. Multiple tags could populate multiple WikiProject lists. Many WikiProjects already use the AFD lists. Another solution is to introduce a new article space for discussions only (AFD, CFD, TFD, RFC, RFA, RM, etc.) allowing bots to monitor that space and alert users for topic-related discussions on an opt-in basis. This would eliminate canvassing entirely. —Viriditas | Talk 10:15, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Table update
| Type | AcceptedTemplate:Fn | ↔ | Not accepted | Term | Problem |
| Scale | Limited posting | ↔ | Mass posting | Spamming | Unsolicited mass spamming annoys many editorsTemplate:Fn |
| AND | OR | ||||
| Message | Neutral language | ↔ | Partisan language | Campaigning/Push-polling | Undermines consensus finding in debatesTemplate:Fn |
| AND | OR | ||||
| Audience | Bipartisan | ↔ | Partisan | Vote-stacking | Undermines consensus finding |
| AND | OR | ||||
| Means | Transparent | ↔ | Secret | Surreptitious canvassing | Raises questions of bad faith intentions |
- Template:Fn Mass notifications that stay within the accepted range are considered friendly notices
- Template:Fn Editors disagree whether receiving mass postings and editors can opt in to receive such messages if they are acceptable otherwise.
- Template:Fn It is community consensus that campaigning, vote-stacking and surreptitious canvassing makes consensus-finding processes worse off as it encourages partisanship, cliques, log-rolling, and treating discussions like votes.
A more fleshed-out version of the table above, trying to clarify the terms and adding transparency as a desired characteristic to make cross-posting acceptable. I reused campaigning in the common meaning of the word as political campaigning to influence potentially undecided voters by using partisan advertising language. I also separated the consequencies to stress the difference, and why editors can opt in to one type of cross-posting but not another. Does this make sense? ~ trialsanderrors 02:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- It does. And I very much like the new table. It makes the most sense when one reads the first column first. (I was going to make my previous comment about "Campaigning", when I noticed the first column, which clarifies the "how and why" of the term.) I think the "problem" for the first one should be flashed out more. I think mass spamming isn't just that it annoys talk page owners. It's the fact that if allowed, and then everyone can, and likely will do so, what's to stop bot (or even AWB) owners from filling every userpage with hundreds of messages. Which creates a "wallpaper" situation, in which genuine talk page conversation is undermined. Perhaps that's the phrase: "Undermines (or interferes with) genuine talk page discussions." - I keep wanting to add "potentially" to the start of that phrase, and "Attempts to undermine" at the start of the next two on the table. While accurate, I suppose this could make the table "too long" for viewing purposes. Perhaps the answer is to remove that column entirely (since it already has 2 of the 3 "notes", and add a number column (1,2,3,4), and explain the problems with each below the table? (However, a possible problem with numbering is that it may give the idea that 1 is "more important" than 4, or something like that. Maybe just referring to each by "term" is enough.) And if you haven't heard it yet, very nice work : ) - jc37 20:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I agree the "Problem" column shouldn't appear in the final version, the three problems should be fleshed out in the main text, with "campaigning" and "Vote-stacking" combined since they have a similar effect on debates. I agree with your asessment of mass spamming, which is why I think that the "I like being canvassed" idea above isn't sustainable. Weh ave probably 500 deletion/page move/etc. debates going on every day, and certainly 50 to 100 where editors think they don't get enough attention. So while people might complain that the one or other message has been deleted from their talk page, there's a good chance that they will reconsider after getting 70 friendly notices every day. But if someone wants to implement it, I don't have an issue with it. ~ trialsanderrors 21:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- While they may be similar, I really liked how you distinguished them in the table, so I don't know now if they should be merged... - jc37 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- No problem, if it helps making the distinction clearer. ~ trialsanderrors 00:38, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- While they may be similar, I really liked how you distinguished them in the table, so I don't know now if they should be merged... - jc37 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I agree the "Problem" column shouldn't appear in the final version, the three problems should be fleshed out in the main text, with "campaigning" and "Vote-stacking" combined since they have a similar effect on debates. I agree with your asessment of mass spamming, which is why I think that the "I like being canvassed" idea above isn't sustainable. Weh ave probably 500 deletion/page move/etc. debates going on every day, and certainly 50 to 100 where editors think they don't get enough attention. So while people might complain that the one or other message has been deleted from their talk page, there's a good chance that they will reconsider after getting 70 friendly notices every day. But if someone wants to implement it, I don't have an issue with it. ~ trialsanderrors 21:35, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- It does. And I very much like the new table. It makes the most sense when one reads the first column first. (I was going to make my previous comment about "Campaigning", when I noticed the first column, which clarifies the "how and why" of the term.) I think the "problem" for the first one should be flashed out more. I think mass spamming isn't just that it annoys talk page owners. It's the fact that if allowed, and then everyone can, and likely will do so, what's to stop bot (or even AWB) owners from filling every userpage with hundreds of messages. Which creates a "wallpaper" situation, in which genuine talk page conversation is undermined. Perhaps that's the phrase: "Undermines (or interferes with) genuine talk page discussions." - I keep wanting to add "potentially" to the start of that phrase, and "Attempts to undermine" at the start of the next two on the table. While accurate, I suppose this could make the table "too long" for viewing purposes. Perhaps the answer is to remove that column entirely (since it already has 2 of the 3 "notes", and add a number column (1,2,3,4), and explain the problems with each below the table? (However, a possible problem with numbering is that it may give the idea that 1 is "more important" than 4, or something like that. Maybe just referring to each by "term" is enough.) And if you haven't heard it yet, very nice work : ) - jc37 20:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
Reset
I restored the original version spun out from WP:SPAM#Canvassing with only minor changes. There are many good edits in the edit history, but it is becoming clear that the changes are considered a policy shift and are not likely to gain a consensus. We should treat this as an existing guideline and discuss nontrivial changes here before implementing them. ~ trialsanderrors 02:58, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I suppose I have to (reluctantly) agree on all three counts. I'll go through the last version and see what's possibly re-addable. Though based on the discussion above, perhaps we should ReOrg the page (retaining the content, of course) to match the table above? - jc37 20:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm certainly in favor of reediting. The teminology is very confusing and better organization wouldn't hurt either. It just got to the point where the policy debate got in the way of improving the guideine, and Quarl's edits, while certainly well-intended were probably a bit too fast for others to follow. ~ trialsanderrors 21:46, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- Hang in there! The split is an excellent idea. I'm sorry it's got so tangled, and apologise if anything I've done has made it more difficult. That was the opposite of my intention.
- But I have to say that as it stands this is not a fix. We now have two copies of the text, both marked official, and likely to diverge in content. That's instruction creep at its worst.
- If you want to go down this reset path, IMO you need to have a clean cutover, when the text in Wikipedia:spam is replaced by a nutshell summary and a wikilink. That's when this becomes the official copy. Andrewa 22:05, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I'm perfectly fine with deleting the text in WP:SPAM. This was the original intent since internal and external spamming have very little in common. That just got put on hold because of the editing, policy SHift, switch to "proposed", etc. Which is why I reset in the first place. If we agree that canvassing should be covered here then we should remove the text at WP:SPAM post haste. ~ trialsanderrors 22:11, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- I would like to wait until this page is more "stable". Perhaps an "under construction/discussion" template at the top? - jc37 22:19, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
- The removal of the text from WP:SPAM of course requires consensus on its own talk page, rather than here. See Wikipedia talk:Spam#Official cutover. Andrewa 00:27, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Can't hurt, but the thread directly above, WT:SPAM#WP:CANVASS already expressed unanimous consensus to move, not to duplicate, and the Proposal to move tag in the actual text did not trigger any opposition in the last ten days. ~ trialsanderrors 00:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- That's my impression too. Actually, I've quite deliberately put Wikipedia talk:Spam#Official cutover at an extra level of heading depth, so it becomes part of WT:SPAM#WP:CANVASS. But if you're happy that there's consensus to do the move, why is there now this duplication? Andrewa 02:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- The pain of discussing things on two forums at the same time (aka multiposting). I completed the move. ~ trialsanderrors 02:36, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
- Point taken! (;-> Progress. Andrewa 03:57, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Definitions
OK, I think first need for improvement is to get the definitions right. First draft:
- Internal spamming is sending prefabricated messages to many Wikipedians directly to their talk pages or email accounts.
- Canvassing is soliciting the opinions of other Wikipedians via internal spamming.
- Campaigning is canvassing with a partisan appeal, e.g. "please go here vote to overturn".
- Votestacking (rallying the troops?) is targeted canvassing to a partisan audience, e.g. only keep or delete !voters in a prior discussion, or self-identified deletionists or inclusionists.
- Stealth canvassing is canvassing conducted to be undetectable to outsiders, e.g. via email or restricted mail lists.
- Friendly notices are notifications that are open, neutral in tone, and directed at a bipartisan and small audience.
I think we can turn those into short and comprehensive definitions. ~ trialsanderrors 05:05, 11 January 2007 (UTC)