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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 December 29

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December 29

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Category:Pages affected by proposed deletion of Template X

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Speedied by Radiant!

Has {{cfd}} since 10 December, completing nomination. Some kind of experiment, seems to be abandoned. cesarb 23:48, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Mac OS software-

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 17:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Soft redirects to Category:Mac OS software, title is not useful. cesarb 23:45, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Citigroup subsidiaries into Category:Citigroup

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The result of the debate was merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:08, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One way or another this needs to be consistent, an extra category for subsidiaries doesnt seem to be of any use as Category:Citigroup contains subsidiaries anyway. Merge Ian3055 22:25, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Local Government Areas in The Gambia to Category:Local Government Areas of The Gambia

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The result of the debate was merge as nominated --Kbdank71 17:07, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your reason? just cos I feel like it. MeltBanana 19:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Birds by country to Category:Regional bird lists

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The result of the debate was Keep, no merge/rename K1Bond007 06:51, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

See Category talk:Birds by country Elf | Talk 18:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Lists of birds

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 17:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empty catg Elf | Talk 17:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Pseudoscience

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The result of the debate was Keep K1Bond007 06:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category is inherently POV in most circumstances. Addition of it to any article is very likely to create an edit war. Phroziac . o º O (♥♥♥♥ chocolate!) 16:46, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Silent Comics characters

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The result of the debate was Delete K1Bond007 06:57, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

All articles in category are currently AFD'd due to being possible advertising. Should the articles be deleted, this category would thus be unnecessary. Should the articles stand, they are not sizable or notable enough to warrant their own category. Mitsukai 16:38, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Canadians detained to Category:Canadian prisoners and detainees

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 16:54, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In line with the other subcategories of Category:Prisoners and detainees by nationality Ze miguel 16:15, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Prisoners

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The result of the debate was redir --Kbdank71 16:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate with Category:Prisoners and detainees. The category was requested to be emptied and deleted since October 6, 2004. Ze miguel 16:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Dieselpunk

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 16:50, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Second nomination (first nomination here). Since the main dieselpunk article was deleted as original research, there's little reason to retain the category. - EurekaLott 15:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Condemned Prisoners

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The result of the debate was redir --Kbdank71 16:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Duplicate with Category:Death row prisoners Ze miguel 15:42, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Video game musicians to Category:Computer and video game musicians

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:33, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Consistency with the rest of the Category:Computer and video games categories. Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 13:54, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Anti-Semitic people

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  1. The category title is POV
  2. To broad (there are LOTS of notable people who have a level of hatred towards jews, some publicaly some not). I am sure we can list millions.
    • Every German had to be a member of the Nazi party or were declared trators right? Doesnt simply being a member of the Nazi party make one Anti-Semitic? I do not think so.
    • This is really like Category:Terrorists. As far as I care Osama is a terrorist. As far as an average Jew as well as myself Hitler is Anti-Semitic. However this is a breach of WP:NPOV. Who determinies who is Anti-Semitic?
    --Cool CatTalk|@ 13:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
A last minute thing articles such as David Irving is very concernig. Wikipedia is not a median to declare people things or mock them. We cannot call George W. Bush a terroist just because Ossama declares him as such nor can we declare Ossama as a terrorist just because US gov and Bush as well as many others think so. --Cool CatTalk|@ 13:24, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't it sad that the 'Vocal' few get so much attention while the silent majority get so little. Send a message to 'Cool Cat' and Co. vote to 'Keep'. Battlefield 10:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Fascinating, I had the opposite impression. --Cool CatTalk|@ 14:38, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Deleted Cool Cats speech, let people think and vote they don't need to read your crap! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Battlefield (talk • contribs)
Restored "crap", who or whatever you are stop it. You are warned, I am also giving you warning one for vandalism. --Cool CatTalk|@ 06:15, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The title is misleading, the content is not NPOV. --Yooden
  • My vote for delete is above, but I wanted to add some other thoughts.
    • This is necesserily POV, and it might very well be reason for a lawsuit against Wikipedia. If some lawyer-crazy USian finds his name on this list and needs money, what do you think he will do?
    • NPOV in an article, even on a topic like this, can be done with the proper formulation. This is not possible with a bland label as this category.
    • Third, I am reminded of the word 'Jew' written in a yellow star. --Yooden
      • Sorry but how is the "yellow jew star" related to wikipedias cfd policy? I know I am blunt but really key thing is who determines who belongs to this category and who isnt. --Cool CatTalk|@ 06:32, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • I disagree, I think nobody could make a decisison like that without bias. You have to draw the line somewhere, so do you fall into this category if you told a joke about the Holocaust (as I did as a child)? If you tell your closest friends that you have a bad feeling about Jews? If you openly demand that Jewish busisnessmen should be quota'ed? If you suggest that the Holocaust victim numbers are exaggerated? If you suggest that the Holocaust never happened? If you regret it wasn't 'successful' enough? Where do you draw the line? --Yooden
  • Keep: But maybe it needs to be renamed? "Admittedly anti-semitic people" maybe? As far as lawyer-crazy Americans suing, that has nothing to do with this category - that goes for all of Wikipedia. Just ask John Seigenthaler Sr.
    • In the mid-1980s, Irving began openly associating with neo-Nazi and extremist groups, and his reputation began to wane. In the late 1990s, he sued the Holocaust historian Deborah Lipstadt for having listed him as a Holocaust denier in her book Denying the Holocaust. After a much publicised trial, Irving lost the case and was found to be a Holocaust denier by the court. In the process, his reputation as a historian was effectively destroyed. from David Irving
    • David Irving is declared Anti-Semitic and he has sued or attemted to sue people declaring him as such. What if I am next to be declared Anti-Semitic for cfding Category:Anti-Semitic people? --Cool CatTalk|@ 06:24, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Seigenthaler case is different, the entry was clearly wrong and was changed as soon as Seigenthaler pointed it out. The entries in this category are meant to be true. Are they supposed to be deleted once anyone takes offense? What's the point then? --Yooden
  • Delete, POV/attack magnet. Radiant_>|< 23:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment - so is Adolph Hitler, just because something is a POV/attack magnet doesn't mean we should delete it, its the relevance and importance of the (in this case) category thats important GabrielF 03:22, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • The Hitler article is different. Hard work is done to keep it NPOV (I think successfully), and attacks are mostly simple vandalism. It's a Good Article and has enough attention to stay that way. The attacks on this category might very well have another nature. --Yooden
  • Keep or rename to anti-semitism (people) I saw this category the other day while browsing around and I figured it would come up for a vfd. However, the category is relevant and none of the entries that I recognized were objectionable. It has to be closely monitored, as Larix said, but it should be kept GabrielF 03:21, 30 December 2005 (UTC) -- edited to support Humus Sapiens excellent suggestion GabrielF 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes but who determines who is Anti-Semitic and what makes one Anti-Semitic, who determines the border from "simple hate" and "Anti-Semiticism"? Who determines who is a gurrela and who is a terrorist? Of course I made similar statements that were removed by a third party so please have a read of them :) --Cool CatTalk|@ 06:27, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Well, as I said for all of the names in the category that I recognized on the list it is pretty obvious from what they have said and written and done that they are anti-semitic. How could you argue that Hitler or Goebelles or David Duke weren't anti-semites for example? This is much less complicated than asking who is a terrorist because I think we have a pretty good definition of anti-semitism. I don't really understand what you mean when you say who determines the difference between simple hate and anti-semitism, anti-semitism, according to my dictionary (Oxford American) is defined as "hostility to or prejudice against Jews." There is no distinction between simple hatred of Jews and anti-semitism. Of course there could easily be controversial inclusions, but those should be debated on a case by case basis, we shouldn't wipe out the whole category. GabrielF 08:31, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Yes few doubt Hitler was indeed Anti-Semitic, also since he is dead its not like he is going to file lawsuits. However then you have living/breathing historians in this category. We will only have "forum infestation" from categories such as this one. --Cool CatTalk|@ 14:36, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or rename to Category:Anti-Semitism (people) because
    1. If it is so hard to decide if someone is anti-semitic or not, then at least half of Category:Anti-Semitism should also be untagged. Either keep both or delete both.
    2. There are too many entries in the parent category to re-merge these, so the people need to go into some sub-category.
    3. Perhaps this category name itself is offensive. If so, rename it, not delete.

--ssd 08:20, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. Sensationalist, very open-ended, not useful. --Improv 15:28, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Useful to keep Category:Anti-Semitism down to size. Taragüí @ 16:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Just having a category of all people who hate jews is similar to the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" celebrities; unless being anti-semitic is what these individuals are about (in which case it should be renamed anyway), this is not encyclopedic. siafu 17:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actualy no, it is not even that. Some of the people appearing on the category although being accused of Anti-Semiticm, they deny the accusations. So the category really is bad taste, at least for such entries. --Cool CatTalk|@ 18:20, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: The initial problems which some people have noted above weren't due to the category name per se. They were because all the individuals listed in Category:Anti-Semitism were recategorised wholesale into this new category. That included people who had been victims or opponents of anti-Semitism: a problem of misuse of the category rather than a problem with the nature of the category per se.
If we are to rename the category per Humus Sapien's suggestion, or any similar suggestion, we should be clear whether it's to include such people; if so, the category name should be such as to make it clear that being listed in it doesn't mean the person is assumed to be an anti-Semite.
Personally, I'm not sure whether that's clear from any of the alternatives being proposed at the moment, but neither I am entirely convinced that the new category under discussion here is the best way of dealing with the issue, so for the moment I'm not voting. Palmiro | Talk 19:11, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but find a better name. I don't particularly like the suggested name Category:Anti-Semitism (people) because that would appear to include people who were victims or opponents of anti-Semitism as well as people identified as being anti-Semitic (or widely labelled anti-Semitic by others). I think a category, to be useful to a reader, should be more tightly drawn. -- DS1953 talk 21:52, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Zoe; no objection to a different name if we can come up with something better; should have text on the category page indicating the criteria for inclusion. -- Jmabel | Talk 22:50, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Cool Cat, or at least rename. FireFox 14:29, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Far too open to misuse. There are so many degrees, and the difference between pre and post holocaust anti-semitism is ignored by this simplistic category name. Choalbaton 20:38, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest possible Delete. Calling someone "Anti-Semitic" is a matter of opinion and judgement, and it is not the place of Wikipedia to do that. Wikipedia articles can say someone is "labeled by the ADL Anti-Semitic," is "allegedly Anti-Semitic," or (if it's true) something along the lines of "is generally considered to be Anti-Semitic." But articles should never say that someone is Anti-Semitic unless they themselves say that they are. And having this category ammounts to just that, and I'm thinking over half of the people in the category do not consider themselves as such. Maybe most of them are, but it's not Wikipedia's place to make such judgements. Wikipedia needs to just present the facts and everyone's relevant opinion and let the readers make up their own mind. Also, given that there are far more racial minorities in the world than Jewish people like me, and that racism is far more prevelent than anti-Jewish bigotry, why is there no Category:Racist people? Neither William J. Simmons nor Nathan Bedford Forrest are in any category with the word "racism" or "racist." Though they are in the far more neutral, objective, and verifiable category "Ku Klux Klan members." If people are a member of say the American Nazi party, then we can put them in a category for that. But categories should be objective distinctions, and this category fails miserably at neutrality, and as others have noted, is likely to end up being applied to anyone who some people think is Anti-Semitic. Blackcats 08:19, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as per Blackcats. I don't think a "keep so long as it is not misused" vote is reasonable when it is so likely to be misused. Are the people who voted that way going to keep an eye on it and renominate it themselves when there is next a problem? Somehow I doubt it. Osomec 22:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep under Zoe's condition. The reason is simple: If we do away with the category, we will keep the antisemites. So what is best? [1] There is no category, there are no antisemites [2] There is a category, there are no antisemites [3] There is a category, there are antisemites [4] There is no category, there are antisemites. Conclusion: this proposal moves us from the near-worst to the very worst situation. gidonb 03:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This is a topic best covered by articles, not by a category. The category is a crude attack device. Carina22 09:47, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep can't be any harder to watch than all the other articles regularly vandalized. Should be "individuals" not people. --William Allen Simpson 15:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete is it for anti zionists, anti- Jewish world conspiracy? Delete all opinion categories. Arniep 01:30, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: This category is being used against people against Israel, Zionism, the Jewish religion, or the Jewish heritage. Anti-semitism shouldonly applie to those who are against Jewish heritage, or even better all middle-eastern heritage. Comment: if the article is to be kept, it should have a strong disclaimer explaining just what anti-semitism means in this context. Citizen Premier 06:48, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:IWW leaders to Category:Industrial Workers of the World leaders

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Remove abbreviation in line with policy. Sumahoy 12:57, 29 December 2005 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Eternal Divine Path

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:19, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A category describing a religious movement, for which there is a single article. Ze miguel 10:26, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:LGBT murderers, Category:LGBT serial killers

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 15:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Created for the purpose of anti-LGBT POV pushing; not an important category. DDerby-(talk) 10:17, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Previous no-consensus CFD discussion is at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 November 25. -- Rick Block (talk) 04:04, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There's no reference to a previous CFD on the talk pages. see my comment above. --DDerby-(talk) 21:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • So it's OK to link culture/race/sexuality when it's a positive, but when it's a negative, then we can't bring it up? It's this mentality that perpetuates reverse racism. You can say all you want about straight, white, European males, but if you speak ill of blacks/women/minorities/gays/etc., you're racist/bigot/homophobe. Keep. Anthony 15:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
That category would be too large to be of any value. If we created, say, Category:Italian serial killers or Category:French serial killers, I'd support keeping those cats as well. Anthony 00:08, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, Anthony. It's okay to link culture/race/sexuality when that linkage has already been academically or culturally established as significant by others. If there isn't already an established field of cultural or academic study around the sexual orientation of serial killers, then having a special category for it on Wikipedia constitutes original research. Bearcat 01:32, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Unverifiable, trivial. siafu 17:48, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Unverifiable"? lol I understand Benami stance but long as we have category's listing gay artists I see no reason why we should get rid of gay serial killers unless we are trying to hide facts. grazon 01:31, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
  • Keep A lot of people are in the top category (and I doubt it was homophobes that created it) so it needs subdivision. Attempting to suppress the fact that some of them were murderers is as absurd as say French people trying to get Category:French murderers deleted while leaving categories for French poets and artists in place because they don't want it to be mentioned that French people also do bad things. And there is at least as much connection between being gay and a murderer as there is between being French and a murderer - though that isn't much of course. Choalbaton 20:35, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is anyone trying to get Category:French murderers deleted? No. grazon 21:46, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
  • As per Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality, a category of this type is only valid if an encyclopedic article can be written about that particular combination of sexuality and subject as a topic in its own right. Therefore, unless you can somehow write an article about gay serial murder as an inherently distinct phenomenon from non-gay serial murder, then gay serial killers don't get their own special category. It's not about positive vs. negative groupings; it's about whether any real possibility exists of writing a proper head-of-category article. If one cannot be written, the category cannot be kept. And I don't personally see that one can be written, so delete and merge everything back up to the appropriate pair of parent categories (i.e. Gay, lesbian or bisexual people and either Murderers or Serial killers as appropriate.) Bearcat 21:09, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. — Instantnood 22:39, 31 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Would you kindly address how these two categories meet the requirement that "a category of this type is only valid if an encyclopedic article can be written about that particular combination of sexuality and subject as a topic in its own right"? Because they're not in any way keepable categories if that condition isn't addressed. Bearcat 00:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete-It's mostly a pointless intersection that's bound to get misused. The complaint that "it's okay to have positive but not" is also invalid. For example we have Category:Roman Catholic musicians, but not Category:Roman Catholic criminals. Further if you really want a negative category try to make one that's in least relational. For example Category:LGBT prostitutes, with names like Jacopo Saltarelli, would be relational as by definition sexuality is directly related to prostitution. Granted Category:Inquisitors does exist and is in least relational. These categories though are just...stupid. Plus as mentioned if you want positive categories up for deletion do that rather than create negative ones that make no sense.--T. Anthony 03:49, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. If were were to keep this and be fair, then we'd have to have a "heterosexual murdurers" category, "African American murdurers," Jewish and Christian killers, etc. The same person would likely have five or more different categories of murdurers from all the different religious, ethnic, etc. groups. Another big problem is verifiability - the FBI and other goverment agencies around the world often list crime perps and victims by ethnicty, age, and gender, but not by sexual orientation. And sexual orientation is very subjective. It'd be hard enough if it were just "gay and lesbian," but with bisexual and transgender included then who's to say? If someone messed around with someone of the same sex a couple times in highschool or college does that make them "bisexual"? If they dressed in drag a few times could they be labeled as transgender? And if we have a heterosexual category then that's gonna be really hard to verify, since hetero is usually considered more normal, so news reports and stuff typically don't note it. But we can't just go labeling people as heterosexual because we don't have reason to believe otherwise. And activist now often expand LGBT still further to include "queer," "questioning," and "allies." I guess the big tent approach, but then everyone would be running out of that same tent for categories like these. I think with the other LGBT categories it should just be people who actively identify as LGBT, but I don't think too many criminals actively identify as part of this activist-construction grouping. Best to delete all categories relating to the alleged sexual orientation of criminals. Blackcats 07:48, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. This isn't about "balance", and any argument that it is is just POV-mongering. (And we do have a "heterosexual murderers" category - Category:Murderers is by default populated with heterosexuals.). The only fact that really matters is whether or not there are sufficient convicted murderers and serial killers who are also L, G, B, or T. If so, then this is a valid avenue for information. -Seth Mahoney 21:12, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Are you implying that there are no LGBT members in Category:Murderers, even with this existence of this category? Can you provide evidence that every single member of Category:Murderers is, in fact, heterosexual, even by default? This is not verifiable information. siafu 21:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • Your contention has nothing whatsoever to do with my assertion. Perhaps a more careful analysis is in order on your part. -Seth Mahoney 10:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
        • Your assertion is that Category:Murderers is filled with heterosexuals by default; my contention is that we have little to no verifiable information on the sexual orientations of the vast majority of criminals. These are not unrelated. There are doubtless members of Category:Murderers who are not in the category being discussed who are lesbian, gay, or bisexual (though transgender is unlikely). siafu 17:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
          • Wrong. My assertion is that every article in the wiki is by default about a heterosexual person. Every encountered article title in every non-LGBT category is about a heterosexual, until proven otherwise. I don't have to prove this - countless other people have done so for me already (though, admittedly, they were arguing about real encounters in the real world, not about a wiki; then again, countless people have made similar arguments trying to get LGBT categories deleted). My assertion is not that every member of Category:Murderers is heterosexual. -Seth Mahoney 18:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
            • While this principle may be useful in dealing with people you've met on the street, it violates the wikipedia policy of verifiability. If someone's sexuality has not been established (as is the case with the vast majority of criminals), then it's erroneous to assume anything. This is, of course, not to mention the issue of other sexual orientations (e.g., asexuality) not covered under "LGBT". siafu 23:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
              • It isn't useful for dealing with people you've met on the street. It is an erroneous presumption. In sexuality studies, it is often called "the presumption of heterosexuality", and is considered both a bias one of the ways heteronormativity can function in a society. You're still not actually addressing what I'm saying. My contention is not and never has been that we know the sexualities of all murderers and serial killers; that would be stupid. Undoubtedly, however, there are murderers and serial killers whose sexual identities are known. The only question, then, is whether or not they are known in sufficient numbers to warrant a category. -Seth Mahoney 21:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
                • It is an erroneous presumption, however you are the one who has now repeatedly made it: My assertion is that every article in the wiki is by default about a heterosexual person. Every encountered article title in every non-LGBT category is about a heterosexual, until proven otherwise. Not only does "LGBT" not include all possible sexual orientations, but your claim above: And we do have a "heterosexual murderers" category - Category:Murderers is by default populated with heterosexuals, is not reconcilable. On the one hand you are claiming that the general category is for heterosexuals and LGBT for the non-heterosexuals, but on the other you are enforcing the claim that the general category cannot be presumed to be heterosexuals, citing the "presumption of heterosexuality." You've now made contradictory statements. My response is, and has been, that we should not make any presumptions at all-- this is not a group where we commonly have information on the members sexuality (unlike, say, politicians or actors, criminals are under no pressure to tell anyone their sexual orientation), therefore we should not presume to label the general category at all on this axis. That is directly addressing what you are saying. siafu 22:51, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Are you doing this intentionally, or am I just being unclear? If you really want to understand where I'm coming from, pay attention to my use of the phrases "by default" and "until proven otherwise". Note that I threw out the presumption of heterosexuality in favor of what I'm saying. I don't think everyone in Category:Murderers is heterosexual. Again, that would be stupid. I didn't say I think everyone in Category:Murderers is heterosexual. I said the default presumption about every article about a person is that that person is heterosexual. -Seth Mahoney 04:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • Seth, did you or did you not support the conclusions that were determined at Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality? Because what you're arguing here isn't compatible with what you agreed to there. Bearcat 19:21, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
      • According to the guidelines I proposed there (note: unless things have recently changed, none of the guidelines there were officially agreed to by anyone and the discussion is far from concluded), the appropriate question is, "are there murderers and/or serial killers whose sexuality has had a profound effect on what they do?" If the answer is yes, and I think it is, then this category's existence is justified by the guidelines I proposed. -Seth Mahoney 21:43, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Deletion proposal and the arguments for it are activism. Osomec 22:15, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Encarta is controlled by the politically correct and very obviously fails to be neutral. Please don't allow the same thing to happen to Wikipedia. Carina22 09:48, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I am certain there are no persons who are simultaneously gay, lesbian, transgendered, bisexual and a serial murderer. Why, you'd have your hands full trying to be any three of them! (It's a bit like having a "Category:Latvian, Estonian, and Lithuanian serial killers". - Nunh-huh 09:55, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as it balances LGBT people being connected with positive occupations, first expressed by Sumahoy
Delete as there is no link between being LGBT and killing people so this is just pushing a particular POV, first expressed by Triona
Backed up by Bearcat per Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality, only valid if connection is worthy of an article
Delete as non-heterosexuality is nonverifiable for most, first expressed by FrancisTyers
Why are all these new people butting in to my vote and Keep as your (new people's) propoganda needs negative propoganda to balance it, first expressed by CalJW
Keep as it was already voted on, first expressed by Golfcam
More information from DDerby: result was no consensus
Delete as inappropriately named. The category of this title should be murders of LGBT people, first expressed by David
LGBT expands to LGB&T. They can't have been all four simultaneously. Nunh-huh
Indeed. I think I may have been misunderstood - I agree with the rationale from Triona, but I was just saying that the term "LGBT murderers" if compared with (eg) "Prostitute murderers" would mean a murderer who kills LGBT people. David | Talk 15:44, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as why not combine Category:Serial killers and Category:LGBT, first expressed by wknight94
Delete as some combinations are illogical from Radiant
Keep as nomination is activism and same thinking as reverse racism, first expressed by Anthony
Keep as we have Category:French murderers, first expressed by Choalbaton
Not analogous as France is a region, better anology is Category:Diabetic murderers, first expressed by T. Anthony
Keep, as articles and categories are presumed about heterosexuals until shown to be otherwise. Seth Mahoney
Keep as politically correct equals non-neutral, first expressed by Carina22
  • End summary
  • Keep. Thanks to WAvegetarian for the summary. -- Ze miguel 12:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - it seems like an illogical intersection of sets, to me. And let me go the record as saying that Seth Mahoney is being ridiculous. Category:Murderers is for all murderers, not just heterosexual murderers, as he claims. --Cyde Weys votetalk 17:22, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • KeepI strongly protest this list being considered for deletion. I'm gay and I'd say it serves a purpose. I am not overly interested in the macabre, but I find this category interesting from a sociological and historical perspective. It provides numerous illustrations of the corrosive effect of homophobia both societal and internalized. Two-thirds of teen suicides are committed by LGBT youth, I think this list provides examples of what happens when that anger and fear is turned outward rather than inward. In the history of LGBT people, we must examine not only our heroes but our villains as well. This entry is important and I would like to know how to prevent it from being deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jakeslar (talk • contribs) 19:37, 2 January 2006
  • Comment/Query As Bearcats points out, there's a policy in place at Wikipedia:Categorization/Gender, race and sexuality that says such categories "should only be created where that combination is itself recognized as a distinct and unique cultural topic in its own right. You must be able to write a substantial and encyclopedic head article (not just a list) for the category — if this cannot be done, then the category is not valid." Why doesn't someone who thinks that this category is valid and important write such a head article and prove the rest of us wrong? Benami 02:19, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep There's no real reason to delete, and it seems like the sort of oddity many enjoy in wikipedia. This no more implies a link in being LGBT and a murder than LGBT atheletes does between being LGBT and an athelete. (If there is a link between sexuality and being an athelete, the page doesn't imply so). J•A•K 02:31, 3 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as a completely ridiculous intersection of unrelated sets. Zunaid 10:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete anti-LGBT POV pushing; nothing about the act of murder is relevant to sexual orientation. Axon (talk|contribs) 14:30, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete illogical NPOV unprovable trival and no head article. It's not a split of a category, it does not add information you'd look for in a category.--ssd 04:13, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Birminghamians to Category:People from Birmingham, Alabama

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 15:04, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Cape Towners

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:03, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empty Category, superseded by Category:Natives of Cape Town. Zunaid 07:58, 29 December 2005 (UTC).[reply]

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Category:Channelled entities

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The result of the debate was keep --Kbdank71 15:01, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Inherently POV and unverifiable. Delete. --Nlu (talk) 07:36, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Actually, no, it's not really either one. Sure, it's unverifiable whether these entities actually exist, but it's not at all unverifiable that books have been published purporting to reveal the entities' channelled wisdom. The fact that Seth, Ramtha, Kryon, Oahspe, etc. can't be definitively proven to exist doesn't make the category unverifiable — God can't be definitively proven to exist, either, and we have categories devoted to him. The question is whether we can verify that some people believe that these entities exist, and the answer to that question is yes, we can. Keep. Bearcat 08:11, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Ramtha's 15 minutes ran out about a hundred years ago, but it was some sort of something, that we have mostly NPOV and verifiable articles about. SchmuckyTheCat 08:18, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rewrite the category page to make it clear that the existence of these entities is disputed, but keep the category itself. -- Antaeus Feldspar 19:37, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to something more comprehensive. Radiant_>|< 23:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename. Thinking this was nonsense, I looked through the articles in that cat and discovered that two of the six were not actually channelled entities and removed them. The remaining articles, however, are in fact about channelled "entities" (though one is an actual person), and are apparently only notable for being so. Therefore, keep and rename to something more comprehensible. siafu 17:58, 30 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Wikipedians interested electronics

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 15:00, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Redundant with Category:Wikipedians interested in electronics (and the page of that category says that to add yourself to Category:Wikipedians interested in electronics, you use the same code as you would if you were to add yourself to Category:Wikipedians interested electronics). Delete and use the category that is properly named. --Idont Havaname 05:00, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Wikipedian Democrats (US)

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The result of the debate was nomination withdrawn --Kbdank71 14:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This category needs routine deletion. It was once linked to by a template but that now links elsewhere. There are no pages here, just a small server hog that should be gotten rid of. HereToHelp (talk) 03:34, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The template was changed and the category is now in use again. Never mind.--HereToHelp (talk) 13:51, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Australian television comedy to Category:Australian television comedy series

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The result of the debate was rename as nominated --Kbdank71 14:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename: To bring uniformity to the Category:Australian television series by genre category. -- Longhair 04:31, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Goth metal to Category:Gothic metal

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The result of the debate was rename and redir as nominated --Kbdank71 14:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Rename: The main article is titled Gothic metal, which is the preferred form. -- Parasti 03:12, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Entertainers who died aged x etc. categories

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 14:20, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Entirely arbitrary categories. Why 20 and not 21? Why 21 and not 16? And so on. It doesn't make an interesting or natural category. The same can be said for the "entertainers who died in their n0s" categories, which have the same failings. We don't have "kings who died in their 50s" do we? Tell me we don't have that! James James 02:10, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • The general suicide category is probably keepable; the suicide-by-age-groups aren't needed. There's some potential value in having some kind of category scheme to group celebrities who died young, but "Prematurely deceased" isn't the way to do it. As well, the decade-base categories clearly led in this case to a profusion of unnecessary analogues, and I wouldn't know at what age to draw the cutoff line between the valid ones and the stupid ones. Keep Category:Entertainers who committed suicide; delete most of the others. Bearcat 04:34, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Rulers in India

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The result of the debate was delete --Kbdank71 14:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Empty, covered by Category:Indian monarchs. MeltBanana 01:27, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Newspapers of the Republic of China

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 14:15, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The naming format is "Blahnese newspapers" in Category:Newspapers by country and Category:Taiwanese newspapers already exists. Also, Instantnood is underhandedly trying to rename Taiwan to Republic of China by creating new categories that fit his name, since he can't get consensus to rename the EXISTING category. SchmuckyTheCat 01:09, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Bah, those two can go in Taiwanese newspapers just fine. They are newspapers in the common definition of Taiwan, just not your restrictive one. SchmuckyTheCat 16:55, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Please be reminded it's not me who's being restrictive. I'm following the NPOV policy which has been in place before I joined Wikipedia. Please don't influence the rest of the community adversely by making some false accusations on me, and providing false information regarding the matter. — Instantnood 18:07, 29 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
You found one exception among 93 entries! Good job! Is this a vote trying to make a point? SchmuckyTheCat 03:38, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The two situations are very similar, must you be so hostile all the time? --Wgfinley 03:51, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Only to wiki-munchkins SchmuckyTheCat 03:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you then singlehandedly nominate all 93 sub-cats for re-naming? SchmuckyTheCat 09:36, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Instantnood and Wgfinley. There are also other examples where "blah in X" is universally preferred, like with Democratic Republic of the Congo. It's somewhat tiresome that all discussions involving ROC, PROC, Taiwan, and Hong Kong are being dominated by the same three users bickering amongst themselves. Give it a rest already. siafu 17:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Special attention is needed from sysops. If this category is voted to deletion, it's going to be handled in contradiction to existing Wikipedia official policies. — Instantnood 17:16, 4 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no, it will be handled according to the policy in effect for the parent category at the current time. Use common sense, will you? SchmuckyTheCat 07:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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