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Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2005 October 11

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October 11

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Ships by country

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the category above. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the category's talk page (if any). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 18:40, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This is one of the items in the "Undecided by country" section of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories). It needs to be resolved with some urgency as there are several duplicate categories at present. Most of the categories are in the form "nationality ships". I think this is preferable because ships are often anthropomorphized. The likes of "Ships of Poland" sounds ugly to me, and is certainly not normal usage. So rename/merge all to "X ships". If this proposal gets a vote or two I will go through and tag all the categories. CalJW 20:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment x2
  • Might there be some virtue in keeping categories grouped "by nationality" in the format Barish foo while those grouped "by country" as Foo of/in Bar? (I'm not saying don't merge in this case, I'm merely saying try to match the name format to the category title which is kept)
  • Might we want to look into clarifying what defines the appropriate country/nation to file a ship under? For instance, are various ships flying under a flag of convenience Panamanian, Liberian etc.? Or do we care about the nationality of the crew? Or how about the homeport? Or do we care about the place of manufacture? All those question marks make me wonder if something like "Ships registered in Foo" or "Ships under the flag of Foo" might be the best way to go about things. The drawback is it might be less informative when it comes to commercial shipping in the modern era where we'll get the Foobarbata Maru and the MV Queen of Fooba both categorized as from the Netherlands Antilles.
-The Tom 01:26, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Per the Tom, most ships transporting cargo internationally are registered to a flag of convenience, e.g. Panama, Cyprus, etc., crews are gathered from around the world (particularly asia). Additionally, certain countries (i.e. the United States) have very restrictive laws on registering ships (must be manufactured in the US, always owned by American parties, crewed by Americans, etc.) whereas others clearly do not. In short, ships can't generally be said to have "nationality" in the modern age, nor are they strictly "of" a country. I would suggest "Ships registered in Foobaria" as preferable and potentially slightly less confusing than "Ships under the flag of Foobaria" ("under the flag of" might theoretically confuse some landlubbers or those whose English is less than perfect). siafu 22:47, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
By far the majority of the articles in these categories, however, are military ships, for which the question of registration is somewhat irrelevant. Perhaps a split into "Ships registered in Foo" and "Naval vessels of Foo" might be worthwhile. Kirill Lokshin 00:41, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Now that is a good idea. siafu 16:22, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We already have Category:Naval ships which categorises in the form "Fooian naval ships".
Note also that many ships did not sail under the United Kingdom flag, for instance the Golden Hind, although it remains correct to categorise them as British. Hiding talk 17:50, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
To be fair, that's a historical loophole that's bound to dog any country-based rather than nationality-based categorization, and I imagine we could grin and bear this one... put the Hind and its contemporaries in an "under the flag of England" cat, which could be either promoted to root or be subcatted in a technically-innacurate way under the "under the flag of the United Kingdom". -The Tom 05:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Is that a proposal to basically eliminate any top-level breakdown of ships by country/nationality, then? Separate civilian and naval cats from the root, and then no more cross-referencing on the country level? Just making sure we're all on the same page -The Tom 05:31, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Not necessarily, as I don't see any problems with having "Naval ships by country" and "Civilian ships by country" both under "Categories by country". Kirill Lokshin 12:27, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Right, but are you proposing having or not having a "Ships by country > Ships of Elbonia > Civilian ships of Elbonia" supercategorization? -The Tom 14:29, 16 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Prize in Economics winners to Category:Nobel Prize in Economics winners

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?meta 02:33, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This category should have "Nobel" added to the beginning of its title, since "Prize" is rather nondescript. Suggest renaming to Category:Nobel Prize in Economics winners. --tomf688{talk} 19:58, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Korean drama to category:South Korean television drama

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?meta 02:31, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Add "South" as per the nomination below and "television" for clarity because that is what this category is for. So rename category:South Korean television drama. CalJW 19:51, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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category:Korean television seriesto category:South Korean television series

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?meta 02:24, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

- I'm in the process of reorganising the Korea, South Korea, and North Korea menus so that articles can easily be reached from any of them and categories contain what they say they contain. Many aspects of culture are best dealt with at all-Korea level, but in television a distinction is valuable as it largely or entirely post-dates division and the contrast between the television of the two Korean states is stark. And all the articles appear to be about South Korean series, so rename category:South Korean television series. CalJW 19:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:American journalists to Category:United States journalists

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The result of the debate was Deferred pending Naming conventions. «»Who?¿?meta 06:06, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

(Since Mexican journalists are "American" too. – Quadell (talk) 19:36, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Rename. --Kbdank71 19:40, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Mexican journalists are "Mexican" in English. That is normal English usage. If it is different in Spanish, that is a matter for the Spanish Wikipedia. Over 80% of U.S. people categories are correctly termed "American" and that should be increased to 100%. Wikipedia should not be used to try to change the English language for political reasons. CalJW 19:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - In theory "United States journalists" could also apply to Mexicans as the country is the United Mexican States. In the real world "Americans" means Americans not Mexicans. I thought there was a discussion on this whole issue? JW 20:42, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename - The statement above " 'Americans' means Americans not Mexicans" proves the need - this is a nationalistic POV-driven use of the word "American" to be synonymous only with (?white/Euro-ancestered) citizens, culture, science, inventions, institutions, et al. of the United States of America, one of several American nations past & current. 12.73.195.105 00:07, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
It's not nationalistic or POV, its based on more or less universal usage. JW 09:33, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment -- I highly doubt Canadians or Mexicans would like to be called "Americans." You clearly have a POV here, which seems to be to label people "American" who don't call themselves American. As well, when something is a common standard -- e.g. correct English usage -- it's not the same as saying "everybody else does it." It seems this is your own private, uncommon standard that you want to foist on others. And why are you arguing so vociferously for this point from an anonymous account? Smacks of sockpuppet action, IMHO. If you don't value your own opinions enough to sign in and use your account, how do you expect other people to value them? David Hoag 15:45, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Actor appearing on Neighbours to Category:Neighbours actors

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?meta 02:08, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This has just been through one vote and was closed as "no consensus". But a vote which leaves an illiterate and non-standard name in place when not a single person supported it merely exposes the weaknesses of Wikipedia's collaborative processes, and does not endorse the status quo. So please let's not have any quibbles this time, just a change to a coherent name. The proposed form is the predominant one for such categories. If you have would prefer a different name, how about letting it at least get put into this form first to avoid Wikipedia looking illiterate, and then proposing another form in a third vote? This process is very poor for dealing with multiple options as there are often too few votes after the extra option is thrown into the mix for a concensus between three options to become apparent. CalJW 17:33, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment EVERY comment and vote counts on Wikipedia, including yours. To state that Wikipedia is flawed because you did not approve of a decision based off of a community supported consensus system, is contrary to your participation in it. Also, in the future, if you object to a speedy renaming, please copy the suggested proposal to normal CFD and not a modified one that fits your preference. Although this one matches the standard of the parent category the original proposal should not be ignored. Thanks. ∞Who?¿? 20:47, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • The system is flawed because the result was something that no-one supported, just because not enough effort went into achieving a resolution at the right time. Everyone was against the retention of the singular form. I renominated it because there was a consensus to pluralise which did not get implemented, and that consensus is being confirmed this time round.
    • I do not believe it is a controversial point that this process fails to achieve its objective of arriving at a quality decision sometimes. Participation levels are feeble, the discussion is not real time, things get in a muddle when there are two issues, and the level of participation falls from low to almost zero in the second half of the seven day period. It is not a good system, but it is what we have. All I am doing here is tackling a small example of its failings.
    • I made this proposal in response to seeing the closed page before I saw the other vote, so please check the date stamps in future. CalJW 23:50, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: If the grounds for a rename are based on grammar or spelling, it doesn't require a vote. You can just list it in the speedy section, or even just apply the change yourself if you're so inclined. I don't think it's really all that helpful to rant about CfD's failure to apply a change that anybody can make at any time without needing CfD consensus to do it. But since the debate's already here, and fairly straightforward, I'll vote in favour of the rename anyway. Bearcat 21:57, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as proposed Piccadilly 13:58, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename I was original nominator of this rename --TimPope 21:09, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to Category:Actors appearing on Neighbours, which is rather more coherent than the proposed rename. siafu 23:04, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as proposed. Carina22 09:43, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Tourism of Cambodia to Category:Tourism in Cambodia

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?meta 02:06, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to standard form. CalJW 17:06, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Wholesalers in the United Kingdom

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The result of the debate was No consensus (no change). «»Who?¿?meta 06:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Some of these companies are international. Rename to standard form Category:Wholesalers of the United Kingdom. CalJW 16:13, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't that confusing, in an unintentionally funny way? These companies aren't selling the country, after all. – Quadell (talk) 19:39, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete and upmerge all articles to Category:Wholesalers. There is only one company that is in wholesalers that isn't in the UK, but according to the article, they operate there. So this subcat isn't necessary. --Kbdank71 19:46, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • Of course it is necessary. These are British companies and belong in a British category. Your ideas on the development of the category system are out of date. It is now clearly established that we categorise by subject area and country. METRO AG is a 60 billion dollar German company with about 2% of its turnover in the UK. There are many multi-billion turnover wholesalers. I will mark the category "popcat". CalJW 19:54, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • It's ideas like that which cause many unnecessary, yes unnecessary categories to be created. Not everything needs to be categorized by subject and country. Especially with only seven articles. Of course, I'm not up on recent developments in established categorizing, so if you would point me to a policy that states that, I'll change my vote. --Kbdank71 20:09, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
        • Why would anyone waste their time writing a policy stating the obvious, at the risk of a needless wrangle with the likes of you and radiant!, when this principle has been applied tens of thousands of times in practice without being challenged? I prefer to get on with the practical business of categorisation. Your ideas about the level of categorisation required have been superseded by events. As the number of articles and categories increases this will become more and more obvious. CalJW 20:52, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
          • This is of course assuming that the number of articles is going to increase, which it may well not do. For now, Kbdank71's proposal seems perfectly reasonable to me. There's no reason to be dogmatic when it just creates extra and unnecessary levels of recursion. When the number of articles does increase (perhaps you'd care to write some?), then we can seperate it by region. siafu 23:16, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
            • I was referring to the number of articles in Wikipedia as a whole, which increases every minute, but it is most improbable that this particular category will not increase. I am not being "dogmatic" and I am making thousands of edits to improve the category system. I believe that only by doing so can one learn how essential thorough classification is to bring together closely related articles which can otherwise be categorised in different category systems, or not at all. And the category system is tremendously valuable to Wikipedia; when the category links were removed from the main page on an experimental basis, hits fell by more than a third. CalJW 23:38, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
              • I am neither suggesting that the category system is not valuable (Huh?), nor that your efforts at improving it are not appreciated. I am merely stating that all else being equal, the category structure should have as few levels as necessary, and in this case there doesn't seem to be much representation from multiple regions, therefore dividing by region is currently superfluous. siafu 23:51, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                • I think we should have categories which will clearly be needed in the long run as soon as possible as it will make the articles easier to find and reduce the amount of categorisation time in the long run because articles will only have to be categorised once rather than two or three times. CalJW 19:19, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                  • Operating on this principle seems particularly foolish in cases like these. If the category isn't needed, then why would we have it? We're just increasing the server load to have categories for articles that we are merely theorizing may exist in the future. Unless someone is going to step forward now and state clearly that they intend to create articles for retailers in other regions in the immediate future, this is something that should be left in as finished and parsimonious a state as possible until the situation demands a change. siafu 19:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                    • Please withdraw this personal attack. Also please pay attention to earlier comments. Wholesalers aren't retailers.' We wouldn't have much of a category system at all if your principles applied. Every national category was created for one country first. CalJW 10:25, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
                      • I'm not suggesting that wholesalers are retailers; how is this relevant? And no, national categories only become meaningful when "X of Foobaria" can be contrasted to "X of Elbonia", otherwise it's pointless. siafu 12:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment: It's also perfectly possible to accomplish the stated goal by using the existing categories Category:Wholesalers and Category:Retailers of the United Kingdom. While CalJW is right that established policy favours some kind of categorization under both subject area and country, it doesn't necessarily require new "this particular subject area by country" subcategories in every single case. There are a lot of cases where it's actually more appropriate to separately apply two categories, one for "subject" and one for "nation", than it is to create a single "this particular subject area in this particular country" category. No vote, because I don't know whether this is such a case or not. Bearcat 21:38, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as proposed. Piccadilly 14:00, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename as nominated. Companies are primarily categorised by where they are based rather than by where they operate, because if we did it the other way, many would need to be in a hundred or more categories. There will be more articles in this category. The FTSE 100 companies don't all have articles yet, and little more than a quarter of the FTSE 250 articles are started. Carina22 09:42, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete for reasons stated above. siafu 19:37, 13 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
    • If you must create complitcations of this sort, could you at least indicate that the proposed amendment should be implemented if the category is not deleted? This may now end in "no consensus". What a frustrating waste of time. Also please withdraw the personal attack above. CalJW 10:22, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
      • I suppose that, since I must "create complication", I would point out that I am trying to avoid a waste of resources rather than perpetuate one for no purpose. But, by all means, if I'm outvoted I prefer "of" to "in". siafu 12:38, 17 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If no one actually votes against the proposed name, and the category is not deleted, which looks unlikely, could the closer please rename it with "of"? This system does not cope well when more than one issue arises, but if no-one has voted for the status quo, implying that it is the worst of all the options considered, it seems inappropriate to preserve it. It certainly makes one wonder whether making proposals for simple cosmetic changes is worth the effort - and there are reams of categories which need simple cosmetic changes which no-one has got round to proposing yet. CalJW 10:41, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closing note. There has been no further discussion in 5 days of closing. There was no consensus to rename, so the request to rename at the bottom is against the consensus, reguardless of policy. Policy states that there still has to be consensus if there is an objection to the proposed naming, in this case, the other contention is to delete, not to rename in another format or keep. «»Who?¿?meta 06:16, 20 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Cinema chains

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The result of the debate was Rename all. «»Who?¿?meta 02:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These categories are all named in American English, which is a breach of the policy that British and American English have equal status in Wikipedia. Cinemas are never called "movie theatres" in the UK and some other countries.

Rename all CalJW 16:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Rename. Bearcat 21:48, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Weblogs to Category:Blogs

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?meta 02:02, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Blog is today the overwhelmingly more common term, and our own article is at blog. - SimonP 15:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Congo DR football to Category:Football in the Democratic Republic of the Congo

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The result of the debate was Rename. «»Who?¿?meta 01:58, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Gay UK MPs

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The result of the debate was no consensus --Kbdank71 19:09, 26 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This should preferably be deleted. But if we must have it, it should be Category:Homosexual British politicians or something similar. Not all of these people are MPs, they're MSPs, MEPs, European Commissioners, etc. JW 11:25, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

My own feeling is that it makes no sense to categorise by sexual orientation when we don't do it by gender. But as I know a significant number of users support these kind of categories it should at least have the proper name, as "UK" and "MPs" are both abbreviations. We could change it to "British Members of Parliament" or whatever, but that would be long-winded and would exclude MSPs et al. JW 20:31, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I'd still like to hear the rationale for nomination, as grounds have not been sufficiently explained. However, I will point out that this category does not fit within the current category structure for LGBT politicians (which does not break down by nation). Cleduc 20:43, 11 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I had explained, but OK. There are two schools of thought on this, 1) Don't classify people by race/gender/sexuality/religion at all, 2) Its legitimate to classify people in this way, and its of interest to others. I am more sympathetic to not classifying in these ways at all. If we don't classify by gender, then we shouldn't do it by sexuality either. But as we are unlikely to get agreement to delete these kind of categories we should rename this one so that it is more accurate and doesn't use abbreviations. JW 09:53, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
Categories serve as an index to find articles of interest, or related articles. These categories have been discussed in CfD before, removed, and subsequently restored. Oh, and by the way, we do classify politicians by gender sometimes. Cleduc 17:27, 12 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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United States X Amendment case law

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The result of the debate was Rename all. «»Who?¿?meta 01:56, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I realize this is yet another mass nomination, but it's really an all-or-nothing question. The United States is not the only country to have Amendments (or even Amendment-related case law) - see Second Amendment, Thirteenth Amendment, Twenty-seventh Amendment, and most of those in between. I propose that all "X Amendment case law" categories be changed to "United States X Amendment case law".  BD2412 talk 03:22, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

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Category:Ottawa schools to Category:High schools in Ottawa

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The result of the debate was Rename per Naming conventions. See closing note. «»Who?¿?meta 01:52, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I went and created Category:Ottawa elementary schools for those few schools that qualify to be in there. I think the categories should be more descriptive. --File:Ottawa flag.png Spinboy 23:55, 10 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment it is good to be bold, but only if the community is going to accept the new categories. Please do not create more categories in the middle of the discussion or depopulate categories, as if consensus goes in another direction, we are stuck with newly created categories. Also, it may cause a closing of "no consensus" which this one is close to.∞Who?¿? 01:17, 15 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
«»Who?¿?meta 01:52, 19 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]
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