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Latest comment: 2 years ago by SMcCandlish in topic style for translation of title with multiple words unclear
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RFC: Formatting of the words "bold" and "italics" in article text

Latest comment: 3 years ago39 comments11 people in discussion

Should the words "bold" and "italics" be formatted in bold/italics in article text that describes the usage of that formatting in a table. E.g. (from [1]) which is correct?

  1. (Races in bold indicate pole position) (Races in italics indicate fastest lap)
  2. (Races in bold indicate pole position) (Races in italics indicate fastest lap)

Note that this RFC question is about the formatting of the words "bold" and "italics" themselves in the legend, not the use of bold or italics in the table to denote (for example) pole position, fastest lap.

For previous discussions, see User talk:Mitch Ames § Removal of "unnecessary self-referential text formatting" and Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting § Use of bold and italics in the legend for a table. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Added later for clarity...
Just for clarity - this RfC is about whether the formatting in several articles (in particular, motorsport articles, eg my change, reversion) should be changed. It is not a proposal to change MOS itself. However, if someone wants to raise an RfC to change MOS itself, feel free. (If that were to happen, I presume it would make sense to suspend this RfC, because it is based on MOS as it currently stands, but I'm not sure what the exact process is.) Mitch Ames (talk) 06:27, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

  • Not formatted, because such formatting is contrary to MOS, which explicitly disallows it (with my italics here for emphasis):
    • MOS:BOLD - "Boldface ... is considered appropriate only for certain usages" (implicitly those listed in that section)
    • MOS:BOLD#OTHER - "Use boldface in the remainder of the article only in a few special cases" (which are listed)
    • MOS:ITALIC "Italics, ... are used for various specific purposes in Wikipedia, outlined below"
    MOS explicitly says to use bold/italics formatting only in the ways described in MOS, thus excluding usage in other ways. MOS does not say "use bold/italic formatting to show the reader what those words means", thus it is disallowed.
    Mitch Ames (talk) 09:23, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    @Mitch Ames: isn't the point of this RfC to change the MOS if needed? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:30, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    No, the RFC is to decide whether we should apply the MOS as it currently stands to the motorsport articles that were disputed. That being said, if anyone wants to raise an RFC to change MOS, feel free. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:06, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    I mean, the answer to that is pretty obvious, as you have already explained. I don't see why we'd need an RfC for that. Given other people's responses I think they also interpreted this as an RfC to change the MOS. Why not just turn it into one? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 14:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    See "Comment on scope" below. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:24, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
    I have added a paragraph to clarify the scope. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:30, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Formatted as it happens with the use of colours in the same key, keeping the example #1 (which has been used for years on thousands of articles) it will help for a clear and quick understanding of the table. Refusing the use just because a general guidelines might not support (when writing that guideline, this particular use might not be think of) is a poor argument. Nothing is static and continuous improvement is needed.Rpo.castro (talk) 10:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    as it happens with the use of colours in the same key — As I mentioned previously, the use of colour has its own guideline, MOS:COLOR, which does allow the use of colour in tables, whereas MOS:BOLD and MOS:ITALIC advise against formatting in those scenarios. Thus it is not a valid argument to say that because we use colour (in accordance with MOS) therefore we can use bold/italic (contrary to MOS).
    it will help for a clear and quick understanding of the table — Are the words "bold" and "italics" not clear? Do we think that the readers do not understand those word?
    Refusing the use just because a general guidelines might not support ... is a poor argument — I suggest that following the guidelines is the default position, that "follow the guidelines" is a good argument, given that MOS is "a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow", and that the onus is on the those not following the guideline to justify the exception. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:24, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Formatted as in Option 1, as it seems perfectly correct and useful. Whenever I come across some table in Wikipedia with some unexpected bolding or italicization (which happens quite often), I scan below and above the table for the legend (which is missing far too often, but I digress). What I'm scanning for is bold or italic (or asterisks, or colors, or whatever unique formatting the page's editors have employed). It helps if I can find something like "Bold indicates winner, italic indicates runner-up", in, say, the running text introducing the table or in a note afterwards. If we need to explicitly add these (to me, obvious) usage example to the MoS so that it's clear, then so be it. — JohnFromPinckney (talk / edits) 10:33, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    Option 1, as it seems perfectly correct — I have pointed out exactly why it is not perfectly correct, quoting the relevant parts of MOS.
    ... I can scan below and above the table for the legend (which is missing far too often) — If the problem is that you can't find the legend, perhaps the solution is to add something to MOS:TABLES to the effect that tables should have a legend (possibly stating whether above or below). Ie fix the thing that is broken, rather than expecting exceptions to the MOS guidelines. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:34, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: Personally I think this discussion should be a lot broader: can text style be used in an exemplary way? The article Emphasis (typography) does this all the time, not just with bold and italics but also with casing, spacing and color. Legends are just the most common place in which this is done. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 10:42, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    The article Emphasis (typography) is about typography, not motorsports or race results, and is already self-referential. Because of the article's subject I would consider it a classic candidate for WP:IAR. The same cannot be said for articles about motorsports, tables of race results etc. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:30, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
  • (Summoned by bot) More interested in the why than the "what does MOS say". @Mitch Ames: the question is why would the MOS disallow that here? Sometimes there are good reasons for MOS specifics that aren't immediately obvious, and sometimes MOS dogmatism leads to unnecessary conflict. My inclination is to say let's not disallow it, but let's not be prescriptive, either. Figure it out on a case-by-case basis. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 12:58, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    @Rhododendrites: I don't see how handling things on a case-by-case basis would be helpful? As far as I know the cases aren't that different from one another. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 00:00, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    There are tons of exceptions to the details in the MOS. We don't need to codify them all. It looks like others may disagree with me on the subject of this detail, but I fail to see the urgency. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 03:09, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    why would the MOS disallow that here — I can't find a specific answer to that. MOS exists - as does any style guide - to "maintain articles with ... consistent ... formatting". My understanding is that consistent formatting helps convey information that is not obvious from the text itself (e.g. the word "bold"), while not distracting the reader from the text. The reason for having MOS is to reduce the variations as individual editors have their own preferences, and to reduce debates over every individual variation/usage. In theory, we collectively agree to a common set of guidelines as a house style, to avoid debates such as this one. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:56, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    @Mitch Ames: Responding more to the clarification added to the top than this comment here. The RfC question asks whether text should be formatted that way. I read that as either a modification of the MOS or otherwise something prescriptive. I would oppose something prescriptive. If the question is simply "should this be allowed" then I would support absent any compelling reason which isn't immediately obvious. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:38, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    any compelling reason which isn't immediately obvious — I have quoted the relevant parts of MOS. The strength of words such as "should", "compelling" etc notwithstanding, I'm still waiting for someone to explain how one can follow the guideline and also use bold/italic formatting in a legend. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:08, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Formatted (option 1) per my previous comment. The MOS (guidelines, not rules) does not explicitly advise for or against this use, which has been the practice for years (which might, to a certain extent, imply WP:EDITCONSENSUS). The purpose of boldface/italics in this context, as with colours, is purely emphatic, and does not look messy or obstruct readability—on the contrary, it can help spot the legend and thus interpret the table more easily. Therefore, the use is appropriate and useful, and I see no reason to disallow it. MSport1005 (talk) 15:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    The MOS (guidelines, not rules) does not explicitly advise for or against this use — MOS advises against it by use of the words "only" and "specific purposes ... outlined below" as quoted in my first bullet point above.
    The purpose of boldface/italics in this context, ... is purely emphatic — which is explicitly contrary to MOS:NOBOLD, which says "Avoid using boldface for emphasis". Mitch Ames (talk) 06:04, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    Your first bullet point is blatantly erroneous because you keep getting "explicitly" mixed up with "implicitly". Also note that your quote is incomplete, and the full sentence states "Avoid using boldface for emphasis in article text" [in general]. As many people have mentioned, our holy MOS might need rewording to disambiguate sentences like this and specify what is and what is not advised in legends. MSport1005 (talk) 16:12, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    I disagree that I used explicitly/implicitly incorrectly, but even if we swap or remove those words from my post, the advice given by MOS is unchanged.
    your quote is incomplete — Feel free to quote the part of MOS that says, directly or indirectly "you may use bold/italic to illustrate them meaning of those words" or similar.
    our holy MOS might need rewording — Fee free to propose such a change. (See "Comment on scope" below.) Mitch Ames (talk) 03:21, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Formatted. Makes it clearer, no real reason why it should not be used in my opinion. --Ita140188 (talk) 17:51, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Formatted per WP:COMMONSENSE because it's a natural convention that's more immediately accessible to readers, and because that's more important than preserving the sanctity of the existing wording of our holy MOS. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:09, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    If it was common sense, this discussion wouldn't have existed in the first place. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 00:05, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Option 1/Formatted mostly per my comments in the above discussion. But to summarise, this is helpful and consistent with similar usage of colour, and the only objection so far seems to be that it is not permitted by the MOS. I don't know if it's necessary to change any wording of the MOS specifically, perhaps just changing the lists of permitted exceptions to say "including:..." to imply that there are others not explicitly listed. A7V2 (talk) 22:31, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
    perhaps just changing the lists of permitted exceptions to say "including:... — Independently of whether this particular usage of bold/italics is a good idea, just changing MOS to say "including" is not a good idea, because that effectively allows anything. (And then we would end up with many debates like this one where people disagree on whether a particular usage is good or bad. The point of MOS is to reduces such debates.) Mitch Ames (talk) 06:08, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Is this seriously even a question? Option 1 and let's just WP:SNOWPRO this thing already. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 03:29, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    Yes, I asked a serious question, and my response includes quotes from, and links to, the specific relevant parts of the style guidelines. You (and others) are invited to give a serious response - with appropriate references to MOS or other relevant guidelines - addressing the specific points that I made. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:17, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
    one guy vs the world, really fighting every single person always with same words "Its carved on stone". Thankfully world evolves and rules evolve too.Rpo.castro (talk) 12:13, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Comment: Given that most people's argument seems to be that there's no argument for the contrary, I thought I'd give one. Unlike background color in a table, which is purely a stylistic choice, bold and italics actually have meaning in English text. Bold indicates importance or some form of heading; italic text indicates emphasis, names of major works, etc. Using bold or italics in article text in this way violates its semantic meaning. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 14:14, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
  • That has more to do with the use of bold and italics throughout the entire table, not merely in its legend, which as OP specifically stated is not at issue here. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 04:24, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
    Jochem van Hees's argument applies equally to the legend - in fact more so. For text within the table, the semantic meaning (of bold, italic formatting) normally defined by MOS is superseded by the semantic meaning defined by the legend. But for text within the legend itself, the semantic meaning is that defined by MOS, not by the legend. This is because the legend defines the meaning of the formatting in the table (eg, with my underlining here for emphasis, "Races in bold ..."), not the meaning of the formatting in the legend (eg "words in bold in this sentence illustrate the meaning of the word "'bold'"). Mitch Ames (talk) 12:40, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Comment on scope, in general response to several comments above about changing MOS. I created this RfC because previous (less "formal") discussions were unable to come to agreement about whether to apply bold/italic formatting to certain text in multiple motorsport articles. Originally the discussion was on my talk page, then A7V2 moved it to this page to get wider coverage. I raised the RfC for two reasons: to get wider coverage, and to get a definite outcome. I raised it on this page because the discussion was already here. In retrospect, this is probably the wrong place - the banner at the top says "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to [MOS]" not "this is the place to discuss interpretation or usage of MOS" - so I can see that there might be some confusion. (On the other hand, if we all did exactly what the MOS pages say, we would need to have this debate at all.  ) But where else would be sensible place to hold the discussion? The disagreement was on motorsport articles, but the matter for debate has nothing to do with motorsport per se, it's about formatting. So to reiterate - I'm not proposing a change to MOS, I'm asking whether the text on those articles should be formatted or not, e.g. should my edit here be reinstated?
I do not intend to propose a change to MOS, because I do not think it needs changing. It is clear and unambiguous, and (in my opinion) does not need have another specific usage defined. If someone else wants to propose a change to MOS - and some have suggested that MOS might need changing - they are free to do so, in a separate section or RfC. If someone did so, it would make sense to suspend this RfC because it is about interpretation and usage of the existing guideline (so would be meaningless if the guideline changed).
I know that, as has been pointed out, MOS is a guideline, not mandatory. My use of words like "allow / disallow", "should / should not" are intended to represent what I think the guidelines are telling us, ie what we "should attempt to follow"; I'm not implying "must". Also I know that those words are followed by "treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions", but I suggest that the onus is on those who choose not to follow the guideline to explain why. Mitch Ames (talk) 02:22, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Firstly, I don't see why there would be an issue discussing this matter here. On the notice at the top of Wikipedia:WikiProject Manual of Style it states "All maintenance and development and other discussion of MoS matters takes place at the talk pages of individual MoS guidelines." (emphasis mine). Secondly, I don't think it is necessary for a separate discussion on whether to change the MOS. As with any guideline, and as you have pointed out a few times, the MOS is supposed to give an indication of accepted (ie, consensus) practices. The notice at the top of MOS pages states "Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus" - if there is consensus that a particular practice in text formatting (as we are discussing, and as this page is dedicated to) which is currently not permitted within the MOS, then I see no reason it cannot be changed by a consensus here. There is no need to pile on further bureaucracy. That said, while it looks clear that there is consensus here to allow the formatting, there currently isn't (certainly it's not clear-cut) on whether the MOS needs updating. A7V2 (talk) 03:00, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
Consensus here is, for me, as good as any to ratify a relevant change to the MOS. There's no real controversy here, more just WP:ASTONISHment that this isn't already explicitly allowed by the MOS because it hasn't hurt anything and has been practiced here for years. Whether people misunderstood the true scope of this discussion or not, it clearly hasn't hurt anything to do things this way over the years, there's no need to get rid of it where it is practiced, and people seem united on allowing it to continue — whether they think MOS needs to be changed to reflect that or not. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist (Speak quickly) (Follow my trail) 04:24, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Formatted (option 1) agreeing with the comments of A7V2 . I'm not even sure if this discussion is about how to format a motor-racing table, or how to format the legend of the table. But either way it smacks of mountains/molehills and storms/teacups. This has been a long-standing convention in motor-racing articles and accepted by the fraternity of regular motor-racing page-editors. It is a clear and concise way to relay these important details in this sport, without resorting to additional character clutter in the table. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" Philby NZ (talk) 01:14, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Font sizes on Infobox services

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

I'm getting fraustrated after Jonesey95 (talk · contribs) removed font sizes on Module:Adjacent stations and Template:s-line per Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Infobox services. As being avoided to use <small>...</small> and {{small}} tags, it's shows that inconvenience view for Module:Adjacent stations and Template:s-line.

This is one of sample, after being removed font sizes:

Preceding station   State Railway of Thailand Following station
Na Tha
towards Hua Lamphong or Krung Thep Aphiwat
 Northeastern Line Thanaleng (Laos)
Terminus

-Jjpachano (talk) 10:07, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

That example looks good to me. What problems are you seeing? This discussion and this discussion may help you understand why I made the changes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 16:00, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
Agree with Jonesey here. The table above looks good. Gonnym (talk) 16:04, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

@Jonesey95: not a good idea, after removed font sizes, it is gonna bit distracting. Jjpachano (talk) 00:24, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Having all of the text the same, easily readable size is distracting? Feel free to suggest a MOS-compatible and accessibility-compatible change that would improve how the table looks to you. – Jonesey95 (talk) 01:45, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

Determining whether bolding of names in lists, and any other contexts on which the MOS does not comment, are useful

Latest comment: 3 years ago21 comments6 people in discussion

Currently we have lists on Wikipedia in the following format:

  • Example one: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Vestibulum consequat mi quis pretium semper. Proin luctus orci ac neque venenatis, quis commodo dolor posuere. Curabitur dignissim sapien quis cursus egestas. Donec blandit auctor arcu, nec pellentesque eros molestie eget.
  • Example two: Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Vestibulum consequat mi quis pretium semper. Proin luctus orci ac neque venenatis, quis commodo dolor posuere. Curabitur dignissim sapien quis cursus egestas. Donec blandit auctor arcu, nec pellentesque eros molestie eget.

Specifically, they are using bold for the 'title' text preceding the 'description' text. The manual of style does not explicitly state this should or should not be done. Can we get some data on this, to determine whether the bolding is useful? If the bolding actually is necessary, then it should be kept. If the bullet points themselves are found to be sufficient, then I recommend this style be recommended against in the manual of style. There may, however, be some cases where bolding is useful, and some where it is not.

The first task here will be to determine how to gather data about this. To be more neutral, I will make my suggestion in the subsection below entitled Data-gathering suggestions. If you have any thoughts on this, please don't hesitate to state them. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 15:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Data-gathering suggestions
  • My suggestion for gathering the data is a reader survey. Give examples of the two formats and ask which is better. It is important that we don't use an external website (or service) to accomplish this. Any input on how this can be done would be appreciated. DesertPipeline (talk) 15:48, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
General discussion

Wouldn't this be better written in prose format anyway?

For example, lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Vestibulum consequat mi quis pretium semper. Proin luctus orci ac neque venenatis, quis commodo dolor posuere. Curabitur dignissim sapien quis cursus egestas. Donec blandit auctor arcu, nec pellentesque eros molestie eget.

Lorem is another example, ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Vestibulum consequat mi quis pretium semper.

To me this reads in a much more natural way than the bullet list. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 16:02, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

User:Jochem van Hees: In some contexts, prose isn't a suitable format. For instance, the antecedent of this discussion was me asking on Template talk:Aircraft specs whether the bolding that template has should be removed. For an example, see Gotha G.IV#Specifications (early Gotha-built examples). Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 16:21, 26 October 2021 (UTC)
In some cases – but not Gotha G.IV#Specifications (early Gotha-built examples) – MOS:DEFLIST would be the appropriate form. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:11, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
I agree that it would be unpractical to put all that information in prose. But woudln't it in this case it work better as a table or infobox? It seems weird to me to list characteristics like this. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 17:46, 27 October 2021 (UTC)
User:Jochem van Hees: I suggested on the talk page for the aircraft specs template that the information could go in a table; however, this will be somewhat difficult to implement due to problems with hiding parts of a table via conditional expressions such as "if". Even if the example I've given isn't the best one, though, there are some examples where this type of list is reasonable. Is this example better? Forklift#Counterbalanced forklift components; see this diff for a version where that list is bolded. Regards, DesertPipeline (talk) 11:44, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

Proseline plus bolding

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hi all. I see we have relevant threads above. Did I do the wrong thing in this edit if you search for ";Upper shale"? I thought MOS says that we aren't allowed to do semicolon bolding for fake subsections like that, right? And as with the above threads, I'm thinking that we don't bold the front of each line of lists. But that's moot because we shouldn't have trivial lists according to WP:PROSELINE, right? It seems to me that, aside from technical word precision by a subject expert, this is supposed to be prose instead of a list. Right? Or did I make a mistake here? Is this some exception in a scientific context as detailed on Talk:Wellington Formation? Thank you. — Smuckola(talk) 08:53, 10 April 2022 (UTC)

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments3 people in discussion

Hi, can I just check, when italicising a link is it OK to place your apostrophes either side of the square brackets, like this:

''[[An article]]''

Or should you pipe the link and place the apostrophes within the brackets, like this:

[[An article|''An article'']]

I've always used the first method and thought I was tidying up Hallelujah (disambiguation) when I switched a number of links from the latter style to the former. However, that got reverted so I wanted to check if I was doing it right. Cheers, HornetMike (talk) 19:31, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

From what I can tell the quotes are currently pretty much always outside the link; I don't really see an argument for putting them inside. Might be worth adding that to the MOS. ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 22:08, 14 June 2022 (UTC)
If only part of the link text is italic, you'll have use [[Trent Affair|''Trent'' Affair]], but if the whole phase is italic, ''[[An article]]'' is much preferred to typing the link target twice. Some editors object to edits that do not affect how the article is rendered. That might be the reason your edit was reverted. Indefatigable (talk) 22:53, 15 June 2022 (UTC)
So someone sees an edit they think is useless and... makes another equally useless edit in response? How does that make sense? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 01:44, 17 June 2022 (UTC)
Thanks all. I also added a couple of Alan Bennett works in the same edit and those didn't get reverted. So it goes - wanted to be sure I hadn't missed some style guide element I wasn't aware of! I'd agree that adding to MOS might be useful - although this is such a big page I wasn't absolutely sure this wasn't covered already! Cheers, HornetMike (talk) 09:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Beauty pageants and special formatting?

Latest comment: 3 years ago12 comments5 people in discussion

An editor has commented in a revert of my edit here that beauty pageants normally use boldface in a way that I believe is contrary to MOS. Comments from readers of this are welcome. Miss Philippines Earth 2019 may be a good example of what I'm talking about also. ☆ Bri (talk) 21:32, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello! I'm sure you've done your editing in good faith. From what i've seen during my edit tenure, all beauty pageant articles use boldface in one way or another, examples include Miss South Africa 2019, Miss South Africa 2020. or for articles which necessitates the use of flags, Miss France 2022. Then again, i feel like the use of boldface is done solely for aesthetic purposes. (Articles look very barren without them, doesn't it?) Call me PI. (talk) 04:07, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
The use of bold in those pageant articles is very definitely contrary to MOS:BOLD. The fact that there are many of them does not justify the excessive formatting. This seems to be a common thing for some types of articles (I've noticed it in articles about sports competition or people), that a project just collectively decides to ignore MOS - despite the fact that WP:CONLEVEL specifically says they ought not.
Call me PI. says boldface is done solely for aesthetic purposes. (Articles look very barren without them...), but aesthetics if very much in the eye of the beholder - to me excessive bold is much harder to read. The reason we have MOS is so that we don't have to debate our personal preferences - we have a consensus on style that so that we all follow the same general style, as agreed by most editors. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:32, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
Apologies. Though in my opinion, it'll take time for editors that routinely edits beauty pageant articles to be aware of the MOS rules. Call me PI. (talk) 13:06, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
@Call me PI.: If you agree with Mitch Ames, could you please self revert the reintroduction of boldface you made at Puteri Indonesia 2022? I don't want to leave the appearance of editwarring. ☆ Bri (talk) 17:39, 13 June 2022 (UTC)
Good day! I don't think that the usage of boldface is solely for aesthetic purposes only. Maybe the usage of boldface in beauty pageant articles is due to navigation. Well, for me, it is easier to navigate articles about pageants the way boldface is currently used since there is emphasis. For the Miss Universe articles, maybe the countries/territories are in boldface to act as keywords, so that the reader wouldn't get lost easily, same for Binibining Pilipinas articles which is a lot more harder since there are no flags beside the provinces/cities. For me, lack of emphasis (an example of which is Binibining Pilipinas 2022) can easily result to confusion, and it is actually harder to focus since there are no keywords and no emphasis. Allyriana000 (talk) 03:37, 24 June 2022 (UTC)
Agreed that boldface is not used on pageant articles for solely aesthetic purposes. It is used to convey the difference between Part and Whole. The Whole is boldfaced and depicts the country/state/region/etc. that the contestant is representing, while the non boldfaced words are the Parts that make up the whole – the name of the contestant, hometown, vital statistics, etc., and that is a helpful disambiguation. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 11:16, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
MOS:BOLD says "Boldface ... is considered appropriate only for certain usages", which are then listed. Which of the "certain usages" applies in the case of beauty pageants? Mitch Ames (talk) 13:31, 27 June 2022 (UTC)
@Mitch Ames: MOS:BOLD has a list of "When not to use boldface", and the situation described here is not in the section of when boldface cannot be used. In this specific case, I strongly believe that boldface helps readers distinguish between information. The bold is the primary information: ie, the country/state/region/etc. that is being represented, while the non-bold is the secondary information: ie, the name of the woman chosen to represent the entity and her vital statistics. The primary information does not change year by year, there will be a Alabama at every Miss USA, but this secondary information is used to describe the differences between each Alabama year by year, and is simply a description of each Alabama rather than of equal importance to "Alabama" itself. The bolded text makes that distinction known to the reader. Because of that, I believe that the bolded text is efficient in helping differentiate this information and there is no logical need to remove it. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 15:04, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
I refer you to the word "only" in "Boldface ... is considered appropriate only for certain usages". Mitch Ames (talk) 23:47, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
MOS/Bold says boldface "is considered appropriate only for certain usages." It does not say boldface "is considered appropriate only for the following certain usages." Beauty pageant usage of boldface does not violate the "when to note use boldface" guidelines so I do not believe there should be an issue. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 11:38, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
So which "certain usages" do you think MOS:B means? Also MOS:BOLD#OTHER says "Use boldface ... only in a few special cases:" - again the word "only", and this time the sentence ends in a colon, clearly denoting that what follows is the list of "special cases". So again, I ask which "certain usages" or "special cases" do you think the beauty pageants formatting is covered by? Mitch Ames (talk) 03:01, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

RfC about boldfacing of the scientific names of organisms

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

I have opened an RfC at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Biology#RfC on boldfacing of scientific names in articles about organisms. The discussion should take place there, not here, in order to keep the discussion centralized. The result may affect MOS:BOLD. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:46, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Private Use characters usage

Latest comment: 2 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

About Klingon scripts, see talk:§ Does this article need to include private-use characters?. The script is not defined in Unicode, but has Private Use designations. Question is whether this wiki can use these (requiring supporting font) in that article. Discuss over there please. DePiep (talk) 12:10, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

MOS:BADITALICS vs WP:SHIPNAME

Latest comment: 2 years ago5 comments4 people in discussion

This page states:

Text in non-Latin scripts (such as Greek, Cyrillic or Chinese) should neither be italicized as non-English nor bolded, even where this is technically feasible; the difference of script suffices to distinguish it on the page. However, titles of major works that should be italicized are italicized in scripts that support that feature (including Latin, Greek and Cyrillic); [...]

whereas WP:SHIPNAME states:

A ship's name is always italicized.

Now, my question is, does BADITALICS overrule SHIPNAME? For a Russian ship, should the native name be in ordinary type? My initial assessment is "yes". However, I can also see some validity in the opposite: ship names could fall under the same italicization category as "titles of major works", in that the overriding convention is to italicize when the script allows it. I've seen both situations in use:

Moskva (Russian: Москва, Template:IPA-ru), formerly Slava (Russian: Слава) was a guided missile cruiser of the Russian Navy.

but

Russian cruiser Varyag (Russian: Варяг) (formerly-Chervona Ukraina), is the third ship of the Slava-class of guided missile cruisers [...]

The latter explicitly sets italic=yes in the {{lang-ru}} template it uses. A very quick survey I did just now shows that not-italicizing is more common, but not universal. oatco (talk) 23:41, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

They should be italicised per WP:SHIPNAME. It was not the intent of MOS:BADITALICS to override situations where we would normally bold or italicise. It was only referring to the way that we normally italicise foreign words. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:32, 24 January 2023 (UTC)
Alright, thanks for clarifying! Maybe an explanatory footnote is in order? (Or maybe not – this might not be a common-enough issue.)
I did come across something interesting, though: looking at the Russian-language Wikipedia, it seems like Russian text itself doesn't italicize names of ships (or titles of major works, for that matter), instead using «angle brackets». Some examples: ru:Титаник (Titanic), ru:Москва (ракетный крейсер) (Moskva), ru:HMS Queen Mary, ru:Преступление и наказание (Crime and Punishment). An example in running text:

В 2:20 15 апреля, разломившись на две части, «Титаник» затонул, унеся жизни 1496 человек[9]. 712 спасшихся человек подобрал пароход «Карпатия»[10].
V 2:20 15 aprelja, razlomivšis' na dve časti, «Titanik» zatonul, unesja žizni 1496 čelovek[9]. 712 spasšixsja čelovek podobral paroxod «Karpatija»[10].
At 2:20 am on April 15, the Titanic sank, breaking in two, killing 1,496 people[9]. 712 survivors were picked up by the steamer Carpathia[10].

So, perhaps in the lead sentence, where the "Romanized name (Language: Native name, tr. Transliterated name)" template is used, the native, Cyrillic name of a ship ought not to be italicized? (Exactly because it is the native form, and the language itself doesn't italicize ship names.) This appears to be the current convention, anyway. (For examples: Crime and Punishment, Pravda, Anna Karenina (which also uses angle brackets), Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov, Vostok 1). Following this convention, the majority of ship names in Cyrillic wouldn't be italicized, as in most cases the romanized name would be used instead. (Sputnik 1 provides a counterexample.)
My original motivation for asking this was that I came across this revision of "Kara-class cruiser", and found the column of italicized Cyrillic names quite hard to read, then "fixed" it as violating BADITALICS. (Plus it didn't have {{lang}} tags; putting them in got rid of the italics also.) oatco (talk) 21:51, 25 January 2023 (UTC)
oatco The guidance in this page is not meant to overrule other guidelines but I have to point out that not all guidance are coordinated and sometimes contradictions or omissions happen incidentally. You should maybe move this discussion over to MOS:SHIPNAME because editors there might have more insights into the peculiarities of it. Thinker78 (talk) 18:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)
True, but we do not tolerate contradictions for long when discovered. This needs to be resolved. I think a footnote will do, explaining that if there is some context-specific reason to italicize (ship name, book title, emphasis preserved in a quotation, etc.) then it should be italicized, if the script supports that. Cyrillic does.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

style for translation of title with multiple words unclear

Latest comment: 2 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

from Ishwar Chandra Vidyasagar ...gave him the honorific title "Vidyasagar" ("Ocean of Knowledge"; from Sanskrit, Vidya "knowledge" and Sagar "ocean"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aniish72 (talk • contribs) 21:22, 13 June 2021 (UTC)

It should read:

...gave him the honorific title Vidyasagar ('Ocean of Knowledge'; from Sanskrit vidya 'knowledge' and sagar 'ocean').

Use appropriate language markup per MOS:FOREIGN; use single quotes for glosses (MOS:SINGLE); don't use "scare quotes" around honorifics; don't add unnecessary commas; don't over-capitalize misc. words. I've adjusted the text in the article.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:24, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
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