Talk:Portuguese language

European Union

The EU is a sui generis institution. I saw in the article Greek language, the EU being stated. The CIA also does it. Please don't compare the EU to Mercosul or NAFTA... that would be very dumb. If someone disagrees please state why. I think the same should be done with the other 19 official languages. -Pedro 23:19, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Portuguese was not Vulgar Latin?!

PedantPrick then what it was? Japanese? Portuguese was língua vulgar aka sermus vulgaris aka Vulgar Latin. Thought the reference is not really needed. -Pedro 22:14, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

No, you're wrong. Portuguese CAME from Vulgar Latin, that doesn't mean it was Vulgar Latin when Afonso declared it to be the Portuguese language. Just because it was a vulgar (common) language at the time doesn't mean it was Vulgar Latin -- there are many 'vulgar' languages. ThePedanticPrick 22:45, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
the meaning was the same! Noone ever called Vulgar Latin has Vulgar Latin (I believe) but has Vulgar Language/Sermo Vulgaris (the language of the people), Roman, etc.., see the catholic encyclopedia. yes, there are many vulgar languages, are you trying to say "Portuguese Vulgar Latin"? yes, it was. That is clear in the article. It wasnt Afonso, it was King Denis, O trovador. He only officialized it because it was used in poetry, and he was one of the poets. Well, unless if you are speaking on a more technical term, like in this article: Vulgar Latin. -Pedro 23:37, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Example given only valid for European Portuguese

There are problems with the following: "In particular, when constructing a future tense or conditional tense expression involving an indirect object pronoun, the pronoun is placed between the verb stem and the verb ending. For example, Dupondt said trazer-vos-emos o vosso ceptro. Translating as literally as possible, this is "bring (stem)-to you (formal)-we (future) the your scepter". In English we would say, "We will bring you your scepter." The form Nós vos traremos o vosso ceptro. is also correct, used mainly in spoken Portuguese, while the first form is prefered for written Portuguese"

The problem with all of this is that in Brazil, a land of over 175 million speakers of Portuguese, it would be rare indeed to find someone who would write the above. He would be ridiculed and seen as pompous or someone living in a world long gone from the Brazilian reality. The forms above, spoken or written, are just not used, period. Vós hasn´t been used since Cabral. When we speak of Portuguese we must differentiate between the two varieties. No one in Brazil says or writes, "ele deu-mo" or "vi-o". The common form in speech is "ele me deu" and "vi ele". A more educated person might say "eu o vi" but the use of the subject pronoun after the verb has become so common that many descriptive Brazilian linguists accept it as the standard form. In Portugal it would be considered incorrect.

RV

RV, you're not correct. Brazilians often say "Ele me deu", most Brazilian are teached "Ele deu-me" often used by upper class Brazilians - a similar problem occurs in Portugal in other situations (but this issue occurs more in Brazil "Ele me deu" is also very common in Portugal). I usually talk to Brazilians from the Northeast, and some of them (I usually talk to mid-class) use "vós" more than I do (but they use vós not to a group, but to a single person, an that use has fallen into disusse- And I never used it. In Portugal, Vós is also fewly used, unfortunnately (even in Northern Portugal, the region that still uses it a lot) - the South doesnt use it much like Brazil. This is due to prestige of "vocês" and difficulty in conjugation of the "vós" - the hardest in Portuguese. -Pedro 01:37, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Pedro, I didn't say that Brazilians DIDN'T use "ele me deu". I said that the COMMON form was "ele me deu". Just the opposite. Of course many educated Brazilians do. I am only pointing out that the example of the placement of the pronoun ex. falar-lhe-ei is only valid for formal Continental Portuguese. Brazilians would not even know how to do it. I am not sure if it is even taught at school. Concerning the use of vós, I had never heard it used by one Brazilian in twenty years of Brasil and I was surrounded by nordestinos who had gone to Brasilia to work. It would be interesting to get feedback from Brazilians on this.

That use of "vós" i found in Pernambuco/Recife. Also remember that Brazilians are also teached how to use the "vós" in School (the "vós" for a single person is equivaletn with "thy" in English.You misslead me in something. Just a correction: "ele me deu" is correct in many cases, e.g. "porque ele me deu" and you should never use "porque ele deu-me". wrong Portuguese in Brasil is "Me deu", and, almost never used in Portugal. Starting a phrase with "ME" or "ti", etc... is considered incorrect, even if "many" (mostly undereducated) in Brazil do it. e.g.: "Me dá um cigarro" insted of "Dá-me um cigarro". "falar-lhe-ei" is correct in Brazilian Portuguese, more fewly used than in Portugal, but still prestigious Portuguese (seem has a something odd just like in Portugal) and taught. We must have in mind also, the big gap between the higher Brazilian society and the lowest. Cultivated Brazilian Portuguese is very similar to the European, a thing that many forget and keep allways comparing Cultivated EP with vernacular BP. You are confusing both. When you deal with the vernacular, in Portugal you should deal also with its vernacular. There are some Brazilians in PT wikipedia that are interrest in language affairs. -Pedro 10:26, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

ray is correct, many of these forms are simply inexistant in BP. i have never heard "falar-lhe-ei" in my whole life. PedroPVZ has misconceptions that the european forms are the standard in brazil, which simply isn't true. not even extremely posh people would use "falar-lhe-ei", i wonder if any brazilian would even be capable of doing these kind of forms, and i can't even remember being taught these forms either, even though much of what we are taught in school is indeed heavily based on european portuguese. for example, we are taught many verb forms, conjugations, etc, that sound extremely archaic to us, but i guess it's a bit like learning latin. most kids don't like it, although they can generaly remember some of the stuff when they grow older. that's probably why written portuguese texts are not that difficult to understand for brazilians. however, the way more "educated" or "posh" speakers talk, is more defined in their accent and in the choice of words, rather than being based on archaic grammar rules. after all, they have to be understood. concerning the use of "vós", i have never heard it being used at all in real life or on tv, and although there is technically a small chance that some regional dialect might still use it, i have never heard of that. it is true that "tú", although not the standard, still exists in some regions, but even "tú" is not used as in portugal, and the verb is conjugated like it conjugates for "você". Vbs 12:07, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Archaic? LOL. Maybe you never went to school ;) Maybe you arent Brazilian afteer all. The use of "tu" in Brazil although incorrectly used by young people is seen has very "cool", neveer archaic. It ssems VBS is speaking for all Brazilians. -RonaldoBr 19:55, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)
BTW, I loved the idea of European Portuguese seeming Latin. Eheh. Vbs get a life, will you? -RonaldoBr 19:57, 27 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like I'll have to clear up a couple of things here. We're mainly dealing with three examples here: The "falar-lhe-ei" kind of conjugation, "vós" and "tu". First of all, Brazilians DO learn those things at school. I can't speak for the whole lot, since I've studied my entire life in the same school, and it was a private one. However, I'm pretty sure everybody learns those things, whether for good or not. The "falar-lhe-ei" thing is ALMOST NEVER USED, REGARDLESS OF WHO THE HELL YOU ARE IN BRAZIL. There's no game, you can't deny that. It doesn't matter if you're a high class, top society "burguês". If you say that, it's like you're writing "PRETENTIOUS" in your forehead. No, better. Big, flashing, neon lights.

We are taught how to use that in school, but that's just because the Brazilian Portuguese is still heavily connected to an archaic, European Portuguese system. This bothers a countless number of people, but it's not like we can do anything. The old guys on the fancy chairs in charge of dictating the grammar rules for the Brazilian Portuguese are either too lazy or too afraid to change anything and aim for something more modern (and more Brazilian). Thing is, that ain't used. Nobody does. It was used in the past, but today it's just dead. It is correct, but it's pretty much extinct in terms of use.

"Vós" and "tu". Those are the personal pronouns for the second person, for plural and singular, respectively. What happens is, they are no longer largely used. We still see people using "tu" a lot, like in the south. It's just normal for people like them, and it doesn't really bother no one. Here in São Paulo, people are most likely to not see that kind of thing, but since this is the big metropolis, things usually get more mixed. About "vós", it's even less used. I really can't remember the last time I heard that here. Also, Pedro is probably thinking of "vos", as in "vos encontrei aqui", and not "vós", as in "vós sois muito simpáticos". I might be wrong here, but I think those things are different. While it's not THAT hard to see the first form being used here, you'll have to be a pretty lucky guy to hear the last one, unless the person is joking/mocking that manner of speaking.

Those two pronoums fell in disuse for a reason I'm not sure of. "Você" and "vocês" are more common today, throughout the entire Brazil (for comparative means). Those new pronoums are pretty weird, since "tu", for instance, has characteristics of third person pronoums, and yet it is used as a second person pronoum. I'm not sure of how grammatically correct that is, but something's for sure: Those are much more used than "tu/vós" will ever be.

Concluding, what the original poster said is very much correct. You might think all those "posh" forms are freely used by the certain "Brazilian elite" you're talking about. However, that is not true. People generally aim for naturalness, not artificiality. It doesn't matter who you are: If you get too heavy on the lingo, you'll be mocked to no end. Sure, some people do talk the talk, and that happens for a lot of reasons I don't need to mention here, but you won't see people crossing the borderline and going all "Onde estão minhas chaves? Pensei tê-las guardado em minhas algibeiras. Como levá-la-ei para o baile agora?". Lighten up, peeps.

Also, I don't think you have any idea of what you are talking about, Ronaldo. That guy said those things SOUND archaic. That's a hell lot different, you know. And we do believe those things are way too distant from our reality, hence pointless. It's pretty much archaic for us, yes. About "tu", I don't know if the kids like that and find it "trendy" or whatever. All I know is that it's being forgotten. If it's being forgotten, it's getting old. If it's getting old, it's one step closer to be seen as "archaic". I think it's you who are not Brazilian, after all. The "Br" on your name might be enough for most people... but I ain't so sure. And if you are... you should pay a little more attention to things. Stand up for your country. Make us proud. – Kaonashi 02:55, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Kaonashi, I picked up a copy of Veronika Decide Morrer by Paolo Coelho when I was in Portugal, and it was full of those constructions that you say are completely archaic, specifically the putting of the object in the middle of the word with dashes (eg "falar-lhe-ei"). The characters also address each other as "tú", except in formal situations where they use "você." However, when one of the (Slovenian) characters is living in Brasilia, his parents address him as "você". This struck me as odd, considering that Paolo Coelho is a Brazillian author. Do you or anyone else know if Brazillian novels are routinely localized for Portuguese readers (or vice-versa)? This seems like a literary atrocity to me. Imagine translating Huckleberry Fin or Treasure Island into a more "understandable" dialect! You'd lose half of the charm of the original! ThePedanticPrick 05:00, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

PedanticPrick , many constructions that are considered archaic in Brazil like "fá-lo-ei" are still used in the literary language. In fact, a few years ago, Brazilian writer João Ubaldo Ribeiro actually wrote a letter to a national newspaper defending his "right" to use the mesoclitic pronouns. The truth however is that even the writing manuals of leading newspapers (e.g. "O Estado de São Paulo", "Folha de São Paulo", etc...) advise reporters to avoid that construction as it sounds, well, pedantic. That doesn't mean though that newspapers always avoid "archaic language". For example, the synthetic pluperfect (e.g. "dissera", "fizera") is quite rare in spoken Brazilian Portuguese, but it is commonly used by most newspaper columnists. As for the "tu"/"vós" discussion, here is a summary of what actually happens in the modern spoken language:

(1) "Vós" is archaic, both in Brazil AND in Portugal; it is used only in religious services or in very formal literary language.

(2) "Tu" is widely used in Portugal as the informal 2nd person form of address; in Brazil, "tu" is used only in poetry/music, or in regional (e.g. "gaúcho") varieties of the language, in the latter case often with the incorrect verb conjugation (e.g. "tu falou" instead of "tu falaste"). Otherwise, "você" followed by the appropriate 3rd person verb form is the standard form for "you" in almost all situations in Brazil and, in the case of formal address (when talking to a stranger for example) in Portugal. To make things more complicated, one can also say "you" in Portuguese using the construction "o senhor/ a senhora" (e.g. "A senhora precisa de ajuda ? ", lit. "The lady needs help?"). Generally, this form of address is reserved both in Brazil and in Portugal to formal occasions, e.g. to address someone who is much older than you (in Brazil, sometimes to address your parents) or to talk to someone who is hierarchically superior to you (like your boss), a public authority, or, in the case of students, sometimes your teachers or professors. In Portugal specifically and, to lesser extent, in some parts of Brazil (e.g. the Northeast), in addition to "o senhor/a senhora", there is a large array of similar expressions used to mean you (formal), e.g. "o pai"/"a mãe" when addressing your parents; "o engenheiro"/"o doutor" when addressing someone who has those respective titles; "a menina" when addressing a young lady, etc...

(3) Since "você" requires third person verb forms, it is somewhat natural that it should be replaced by third person oblique pronouns ("o"/"a" or "lhe") when used respectively as a direct or indirect object. That is actually the rule in standard Portuguese and the most common usage in Portugal. If you watched for example the British movie "Love Actually", you might recall that Sr. Barros, Aurelia's father, addresses Jamie (Collin Firth), by "você" (e.g. "Você quer casar com a minha filha ?") and, at same point, when Jamie asks Sr. Barros to take him to the restaurant where Aurelia works, he replies: "Levo-o lá" ("I will take you there"). That construction however, although correct in standard Portuguese, sounds odd to Brazilians who would prefer, in formal contexts like that, to say "Eu levo o senhor lá". On the other hand, in informal address ,when talking to a friend or an equal addressed by "você", Brazilians would normally say "Eu levo você lá" or "Eu te levo lá". The latter construction with "te", normally the oblique pronoun associated with "tu", reveals one interesting contrast between standard Portuguese and spoken (southeastern) Brazilian Portuguese, i.e. the use of "te" with "você" instead of "o" or "lhe" (e.g. "Você trouxe aquele casaco que eu te dei no Natal ?" cf. Port. " Trouxeste aquele casaco que te dei no Natal ?"). That usage is VERY common in Rio and São Paulo and accepted in colloquial language among the educated middle and upper classes. As far as I can tell, the only situation when Brazilians routinely use the standard "o" for "você" in the spoken language is when "o" follows an infinitive and changes to "-lo", e.g. "Prazer em conhecê-lo" (="Nice to meet you" or "Não preciso lembrá-lo da importância dessa reunião" (="I don't have/need to remind you of the importance of this meeting").

Bottom line: as you may have figured by now, second person address in spoken varieties of Portuguese is actually quite a mess, particularly in Brazil. Of course, as someone said before, Brazilian kids learn the FULL conjugation of all verbs at school, including the "archaic" constructions. They also learn the full range of possible interactions between verbs and oblique pronouns, e.g. "fi-lo, fizeste-o, fê-lo, fizemo-lo, fizeste-lo, fizeram-no"; "fá-lo-ei, fá-lo-ás, fá-lo-á, fá-lo-emos, fá-lo-eis, fá-lo-ão", "faço-o, fazê-lo, fá-lo, fazemo-lo, fazei-lo, fazem-no", etc...

quote: "is seen has very 'cool', neveer archaic"

hahaha, this post by newly registered (yesterday!) "RonaldoBr" is EXTREMELY funny!! anybody see anything familiar in it? Vbs 08:45, 28 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Assistance

The Portuguese section of Romance copula needs some attention. If you can describe the difference between ser and estar, go to it! Chameleon 22:56, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Chameleon, I don't know Spanish very well, but I believe Portuguese usage is similar to the Spanish one, except that "ficar" or sometimes "ser" is used for ___location instead of "estar", e.g. "O teatro fica na Rua São João". Also, Portuguese is more conservative than Spanish in the sense of retaining "ser" in situations where modern Spanish uses "estar", e.g. we say in Portuguese "A casa é feita de madeira", when Spaniards, I believe, would say "La casa está hecha de madera".

Odd redirect

about this edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Portuguese_language&diff=0&oldid=6888271 I just saw that Portuguese literature is redirecting to Portuguese language literature (a rather strange and deceptive thing, by the way), so sorry for the comment on that summary. But the template was buggy in any case. RodC

Namibia

It seems highly unlikely that 20% of Namibians speak Portuguese as a native language. --Henrygb 13:16, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

They live mostly in a refugee area near the border with Angola and are mostly Portuguese speaking Angolans (so people from urban areas) running from the war that was going on until recently, they are there a long time, they have houses and even schools. -Pedro 02:11, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I believe the most common European language spoken in Namibia is actually Afrikaans, i.e. the modified variety of Dutch used in South Africa. English (one of the official languages of Namibia) and German (the language of the former colonial ruler of the country) are also used. I doubt a significant number of people speak Portuguese, as you claim. At least, no reliable source that I checked confirms your information.
There are sources in Portuguese in the net (and I even watch it on TV), now I dont know which (on the net). But a probable source should be the UN. Try that one. -Pedro

I just made a simple search "Português Namíbia", but without numbers, but with these blocks maybe you will open your mind: Portuguese MinIstry of Education [1] Spanish Site- Expolingua [2] other links [3] When I got some time, I'll do a better search. Another way is going to the country and visit the boarder area and cities with Angola. Another is seeing the weight of the Angolan population and the Namibian one. It would give you the best view of it! The fact, that the government or in main cities a language is spoken it doesnt mean that others arent. Try get info by the UN, I'll try to search on the net, when I got some time. -Pedro 02:40, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Mistakes in the article

Hi. After reading the article, I noticed a couple of mistakes:

In one of the tables, it is informed that 99% of the Brazilian population is formed by native speakers. That information is wrong. The actual figure as calculated by all research institutes (such as IBGE) is 100%. Non-native speakers in Brazil are basically immigrants and a small number of isolated indian communities, usually concentrated in the Amazon Basin. Those numbers, even combined, are statiscally irrelevant.
The expression "portuñol" or "portunhol" is not a "hybrid dialect" formed by mixing Portuguese and Spanish. It is actually a pejorative expression used in referrence to erroneous use of either language by a native speaker of the other who is unable to filter out some similar words and ends up speaking a confusing blend of the two (as commonly said of Brazilians trying to communicate in Spanish when they have no control of the language — so they throw in some words in Spanish that they happen to know but keep the entire structure of the sentences and many other words in Portuguese — the result is sometimes confusing for natives of either language to understand). It is common to say to someone pejoratively: "What language are you speaking? Portunhol?" when they are making no sense. "Portunhol" is more common in border areas, as many Brazilians cross over to countries such as Uruguay, Argentina and Paraguay and natives of those countries visit Brazil as well. Many of these people try to ease communication barriers by throwing some words in Portuguese or Spanish (depending on what is their native tongue) and end up "speaking portunhol". There is no rule to "speak portunhol" once or ever, each person makes up his/her own as they go along. As a result, portunhol changes from person to person, so there's absolutely no characteristic in it that would even resemble a language or a dialect.

Actually, I think that the 99 % figure is fairly accurate. A "native speaker" means someone who speaks Portuguese as first language. Well, Portuguese is NOT the first language of most Brazilian Indians who are, according to the latest Census, approximately 0.45 % of the population. Second, according to IBGE, something like 0.6 or 0.7 % of the population of Brazil is actually foreign-born (down from a historical peak of 5 % in the early 20th century and compared to a contemporary figure of 12 % or so for the U.S). Of course, that might look like a small number, but, still, excluding those born in Portugal, most of those foreign-born residents of Brazil do not speak Portuguese as their native language. Moreover, even among native-Born Brazilians, there are still a few homes where kids learn some other language (i.e. their "native language") before learning Portuguese. That is still the case for example in some German communities in the rural South. Overall, I would say that 1 % of non-native speakers of Portuguese is a reliable guess.

Would it be code switching as in Spanglish or Llanito? -- Error 01:42, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

More like spanglish (arbitrary) than llanito (stabilished), but yes. Portunhol is regarded as a failed communication attempt. The common accepted communication method between the open frontier Brazil-Uruguay is the Brazilian speaking plain Portuguese and the Uruguayan speaking plain Spanish. The languages are close enough to permit communication, even though it's a somewhat "blurred" communication. I don't know what usually happens in other frontiers like the Foz do Iguaçu, the triple frontier (Brazil-Argentina-Paraguay). --Ekevu (talk) 12:29, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I hope this is helpful. Regards, Redux 14:18, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Grammar and spelling changes

Hi, everyone. I have made some changes to the grammar and spelling, especially to the section Written Varieties and Spelling Reform, but not being a subject-matter expert, I would like to encourage everyone who has contributed to make sure I have not inadvertently changed the meaning of one of your sentences. It seems like a lot of this stuff has been posted by people for whom English is a second-language (not that there's anything wrong with that) and this can be a source of misunderstandings. I apologize if this, or my lack of knowledge about developments in the language has caused me to make semantic, rather than syntactical changes. Thank you ThePedanticPrick 20:56, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Contracto/Contrato

Hello. I'm new here, so I'm not sure this is the best place to discuss this. Anyway, I just read the article and noticed a small error in the European/Brazillian Portuguese differences table: 'Contracto' and 'Contrato' are completely unrelated.

'Contrato' means contract (both in European and Brazillian Portuguese).
'Contracto' means contracted (adjective; same as above). It's a synonym to 'Contraído'.

Though some people confuse them, these are completely different words, with different meanings, and therefore bad examples to this table. I removed the line. Regards, Alfred300p 02:42, 2004 Dec 28 (UTC)

Trema

The trema (ü) (aka conseqüente) is strictly optional in Brazil and it's death in actual literature.

I'm afraid you're wrong. The diaeresis is part of the Brazilian Portuguese grammar, and if it's not used when it's necessary, the word in question is considerred wrong. As far as I know, this was never optional at any point in the history. It's there to be used.--Kaonashi 03:26, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Last books in last years in Brazil trema is not used anymore. In public tests for federal employees the trema is note need and is not wrong if you don't use them.

http://educaterra.terra.com.br/sualingua/03/03_trema.htm

Be sure to check the last link on that article, too.

By the way, that might look not very reliable, but you can pay a Google search and you'll understand it all pretty fast. That was my first result, and the site is hosted by Terra, so they can't be THAT wrong, can they? There's and old myth surrouding the "trema", but it never proved to be real. It's still there. It's still a rule. Now if people want to stop using it, that's their problem. They won't change the grammar by doing that.--Kaonashi 03:48, 24 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Mr. kaonashi did you also read the article Portugal VS. Brasil? One ignorant Portuguese per one ignorant Brazilian I should say. His answer your questions that you address to me, that I had no patiance to reply. BTW, there is any Brazilian Portuguese grammar, and you can not change the graphical use in the Portuguese language, the language is runned by law since the 12th century, a tradition that Brazil also toked and it stop being a mere oral language in the 12th century, because of its complexity its natural that some people find somethings very complex, the difference my friend, is the education level of one person. Yes, the use can change, the Portuguese stop using the diaeresis, before it was abolished because it seemed ugly, just like Brazilians "abolished" the deaf consonants. -Pedro 02:04, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I read your post several times, but unfortunately I still have no idea of what you just tried proving to me. It's probably because of your "rushed" English, but I see no sense on what you said. "Ignorant"? That article you linked to says nothing about what we were talking about here, on this topic. By all means, the diaresis is indeed used in Brazil, by rule. Now, are you trying to say we should just drop this conversation and accept the way things are, just like that author suggested on that article? Sounds fine to me. It was already dropped, before you brought it back.--Kaonashi 02:52, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I said there is no Brazilian Portuguese Grammar, the diaresis is part of the Brazilian Port. ortography. My previous text is full of irony. Is up to you understanding it or not. -Pedro 13:38, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You wanted to say that the Brazilians who do not use Trema because are not cultured. Ok, the language come of Portugal but passed and is passing for modifications. As well the opressor and tradicionalist culture of your country was changes here, too. --Mateusc 03:29, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Nope, I didnt said nothing of that! Mateus, you're in a middle of a conversation, and you missunderstood it. I even said, that the trema was abolished in Portugal, before it was officially abolished, because people dislike it. And I understand that Brazilians also dont like it, it make words ungly and it is not a Latin symbol. You're maybe wrong about what the culture of Portugal really is. Though, obviously, if you see the act of writting well has traditionalist, then we are traditionalist, most countries are, in fact, all countries with some degree of development are and even less degree, I think noone wants to be seen has ignorant. -Pedro 10:20, 18 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Claims of close relationship to the French language

This claim would be unlikely to be accepted by mainstream linguists: "Interestingly, French is more closely related to Portuguese than it is to Spanish, even though Spain has a common boundary with France, while Portugal does not." Although Portuguese shares some vocabulary with French and other Romance languages, grammatically is more closely aligned with Castillian Spanish than with French. It also shares many more cultural influences, for example those derived from the Moorish control of much of the Iberian peninsula during a key period in the development of both languages.

--ManOnABus 13:44, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Honestly, French has a big influence on Portuguese (both in lexicon and even in sounds), much greater than Spanish, and in relation with Arabic things are not quit like that. Spanish has the double of the Arabic lexicon that Portuguese has. You should read that sentence again: I don't see any inconsistancy - it explains the dipthongization in Spanish where in Portuguese and French it didn't occured. Portuguese and French even share nasal vowels - something that "mainstream" Spanish hasn't. Both languages share a lot (really a lot) of sounds. No one doubts that Portuguese and Spanish are more related than both towards French. Read the sentance again and you will get it. There are other influences and semilarities between Portuguese and French especially in Lisbon Portuguese (the use of the /1/ sound). I agree with the sentence in the article, it is quite a different look at things but with truth. -Pedro 02:00, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- I think these claims need to be substantiated (and sources cited) by some legitimate linguistic research, not just observations and speculations. To me, Portuguese and Italian sound very similar when spoken, but you don't hear me claiming that they are closely related. Comparing Pt. bom to Fr. bon is a particularly weak example, since, if I'm not mistaken, the difference between bom and bueno can be explained by a simple dipthong shift and some nasalization. This could easily have happened over the many centuries of Portugal being separated from Spain; no influence from France is necessary. I'm not saying that French had no influence on Portuguese; indeed, French has likely influenced (and been influenced by) almost all European languages and even some non-European ones. But the claim that Portuguese was more influenced than Spanish needs to be corroborated. Thank you. ThePedanticPrick 18:18, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
  - Bom is pronunced the same way in Portuguese and in French: [bõ]. The Alphabet is pronunced the same way. Abcdef... etc... In spanish it is very different. Although Spain is closer geographically to Portugal is very far in other areas. France, in the mind of the people and culturally, is much closer. Today, there is even the issue of the TGV train, that it has to go throw Spain. Many people still think it should go on a strait line to France, but in Spanish territory are the Spanish who decide. There are also influences during the Napoleonic dominion in Portugal. I've come by, more than once with this problem, the citing sources problem. Not everyone uses the NET (aka google)! and that's a very bad source to proper information! Just see some given links in this talk. And when I try to search using Google I cant find it! Even if I had previously found it. :S And How can you search things that you learned in school? And has I previously said, and continue to say, English is a bad source to find proper information about Portuguese. There are even those people that use English and the net to spread lies over the net. I found the most incredible things even in serious websites! Because they use info some bad-intentioned users gave them.
    - Dearest Pedro, I don't want to seem like I'm trying to insult you, but are you honestly serious that "people think the [TGV] should go on a strai[gh]t line to France"? A quick glance at a map shows us that the only straight line from Portugal to France goes through Spain. It would make NO SENSE whatsoever to have a train going through the ocean AROUND Spain when the shortest route is through Castilla y Leon and the Basque country. Never mind that there might be some Spaniards who could conceivably want to catch a ride (and would be providing the lion's share of the financial backing, no offence)! This sort of thinking calls your crediblity on other topics into serious question. I have no personal objection to your theory that French and Portuguese are closely related, but you must base your assertions in fact. This it not a theology debate or a Sunday school where faith in your beliefs will get you any points. Please find some real-world research to support your claims, not fanciful stories about prejudiced Portugueses who hold a fanciful view of European geography. It's a good theory, don't taint it by using ludicrous assumptions to prop it up. ThePedanticPrick 22:17, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To remember, the person who wrote that in the article has my complete approval. I cant find any theory in that. Just plain truth. And, I doubt that anyone can find info about that using google! -Pedro 17:31, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I just remembered a possible reason: During the middle Ages, in the Portuguese Reconquista entire towns where settled by people from France, the Vila Francas - so there was an early French /Frank imigration to Portugal that could be a reason for that similarity. Due to the expulsion of the Moors, the South of Portugal needed population. --Pedro 10:17, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

PedanticPrick, what I told you (the TGV thing) was just to say, until very recently, the fact that Portugal and Spain do share a border, that didn’t mean much. The interaction was very short. That was the point (I'm not talking about putting TVG on the Atlantic or in the air; it is just a glimpse on cultural issues for a foreigner to understand). And the interaction has always been bigger with France than with Spain - that simply didn’t exist (except for the short period of the Iberian Union). That's the only thing that I said, and that is the truth! Today, things got a bit different. But many people still think the same. Do you get me now? If you continue with the idea that the fact, both countries share a border, is a strong reason for the similarity of the languages, please think again and get informed - go read some history, talk with people. The only reason that both languages are so similar is only due to strong Romanization in both countries. Just that, interaction in History has been kept very low (almost only with Galicians and Extremadurans). With the Castilians, in particular, almost inexistent. When two brothers get bored with each other, and they stop talking to each other, living in the same house, doesn’t change much - they will not talk and avoid talking to each other. I experience that, with people, and with these two countries is very much the same. The fact, that English is massively influenced by French, doesn’t mean that others are! Don’t forget that Portuguese and French have the same origin, so most words where already common and the French influence on Portuguese is very superficial. About the French influence on Spanish, I don’t know. What I know is that the related languages topics is too big, and very few important for an article about the language. -Pedro 15:19, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Brazilian Pronunciation

In the section EXAMPLES, I changed a bit the pronunciation of the words. 1 - There were some little wrong things, like accent of the sylabe. 2 - It had the Rio de Janeiro accent, wich due to historical reasons (the royal portuguese family had been to Rio), has a portuguese-like accent.

The accent I has put is a neutral accent.

(I'm brazilian, from São Paulo)

OK. Thought people in Brazil usually find Rio de Janeiro Portuguese the closest to the European, I think it is the Northeastern dialects. I just disagree with one thing: For instance /ĩ'gleɪs/ should be /ĩ'glejs/ the "i" is a semi-vowel, so it is a \j\ in IPA. It is not the Portuguese J.-Pedro 19:49, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There were a number of mistakes in the Brazilian pronunciation.

See "A Grammar of Spoken Brazilian Portuguese", Earl W. Thomas, and "The Romance Languages", Martin Harris and NIgel Vincent.

Also, the words for "hello" and "yes" did not seem to match normal Brazilian usage.

The representation of 'nh' may not turn out well. In Brazil, it is *not* an ñ as in Spanish, but a nasal /j/.

Benwing 03:29, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Portuguese in Guiné-Bissau

I think that it should be noted that, inspite of being the national language, Portuguese is hardly spoken in Guiné-Bissau. It is learned only in private schools (in the cities). The urban population speaks creole and outside of the cities, not even creole is spoken much. I know this for fact (my girlfriend is from Guiné-Bissau). If you have need for more specifics, please let me know. If not, please consider putting this addendum.

Portuguese is not the national language in Guinea Bissau, there's no national language there - there are several! Portuguese is just the official language, there's a lingua Franca, the Crioulo (the Portuguese Creole). And, the Crioulo is becoming very popular there has Lingua Franca, it is spoken today by more than 60% and growing. Due to permanent war, the Portuguese language itself is fewly spoken (mostly spoken by urban man), that was in the article, now is part of The Geography of the Portuguese language... where there's info about all the African countries. The Creole could become a national language, it is being taught everywhere there, even in trees o_O - it has the same use that standard Portuguese has in Mozambique (communicate with people, that are from other regions). About the note, if you read the article, you'll see that only 15% of the population in the country speaks Portuguese... so, that is already in the article. BTW, these levels of use of the Official language are very common in the rest of the African countries with French, English, or Portuguese has official languages. The exception is Angola, where Portuguese is largely spoken. I dont know if there are similar cases in other countries about other languages, surely there are. -Pedro 23:31, 4 Mar 2005 (UTC)

But, please, if you have specific info, add in the proper article the info you have. As you see, I just disagree with your info about the creole - it is very far from the truth (60% is a fine number). Althought it is often used has a second language. Guinea-Bissau is a country with just 1,5 million inhabitants. -Pedro 10:10, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Pronunciation sound file

I might be in over my head, but I tried recording "Portugese" in Portugese even though I'm not a native speaker.

Here's the recording: listen^ⓘ.

If others approve, I'd like to put it in the introduction next to Portugese. karmosin 20:40, Mar 10, 2005 (UTC)

Which Pronunciation are you using? Lisbon or Rio de Janeiro? Between both there's a change in the pronunciation of the R (not so round in Lisbon - has it is in the article) and more silent in Rio. Maybe if you change the \o\ to an \u\ - it is often used in both dialects and it would seem more natural. Although you can also use an "o" but not emphasized - pronunced somewhat speedly.-Pedro 12:24, 11 Mar 2005 (UTC)
The sound for European Portuguese for "português" the r was incorrect, I've corrected it. Sorry. -Pedro 02:02, 14 Mar 2005 (UTC)

To be honest, I know barely anything about Portugese except what I know through my breif studies of Latin and Spanish and that the phonology for some reason reminds me of Russian (which I am a native speaker of). Here are two more attempts. If none of these sound right I'll leave it to the natives to record.

Audio file "portugues.ogg" not found

Amazing article you've compiled here, btw. It should serve as an inspiration to all other language articles. I'll try to get it translated into Swedish as soon as I can. Peter Isotalo 21:08, Mar 20, 2005 (UTC)

Oh thanks. I'm just perfectionist, and when I come by with some related interresting subject in the news, or papers, I just open wikipedia. The sound is very nice now. -Pedro 00:23, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Educated Brazillians?

I want to know who these Brazilians are that are going to college so they can sound more like Yoquinhos. I find the phrase "between educated Brazillians and Portuguese these differences are reduced", to be a classic example of PedroPVZ's (yes, he's back) Portugal-centric attitude and feelings of superiority, not to mention his often ludicrous assertions that strain his credibility. The implication is obvious: if educated Brazilians are easier for portuguese to understand, than the majority of Brazillians are speaking in a manner that Pedro finds uneducated. What an open-minded way to view dialectical differences! Admittedly, I do not know many Brazillians, much less educated ones, but I doubt that they speak that much differently from the rest of their countrymen. If some intelligent brazilians, whose credibility has not been called into question repeatedly in the past, would like to correct me otherwise, I would welcome that. But until then, Pedro's perceptions should not be masquerading as legitimate research. ThePedanticPrick 23:12, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

look, I dont know why you are so irritated, but that comment was offensive, and I really wouldnt reply, but I did. You seem to like me a lot, didnt you like what I said to you the other day? I was not the only one to say that, and this that you are now asking, someone also said to you previously. I have to add to his ideas that are two classes of rich people, the newly rich and traditional. But what you want is to irretate me. If educated seems not an appropriate word in English, change it. I believe that was not the original word! It is not Portuguese superiority because I believe I dindt put that word. And half of my family is Brazilian. Again, you are talking about issues you dont know. That occurs in every language, specifically with Latin ones. And, lower class speaks differently from the higher classes (lexicon, forms of treatment, incorrect use of the language, etc.), in Brazil the gap is bigger than in Portugal. Who's talking about dialects? that is about socialets. The gap between rich and poor is bigger than between different regions. IT IS JUST THAT! Your mind is perversive. Insted of putting you anger, you should first search and then comment! You dont need to believe in me. You just need to learn to research, there is plenty of info on that on the net. All Brazilians are easy for a Portuguese to understand. I dont edit without reserching, the one that talks without knowing is you, once more. I dont find Brazilian dialects uneducated, my dialect isnt also standard Portuguese. you should measure your words and assumptions! If you are irritated, jump from a bridge! -Pedro 00:16, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)

If you think that's offensive, that's ok! While I was archiving I saw you thought that the adaptations on books, were done because people wouldnt understand it (you also said some Portuguese wouldnt understand some Brazilian dialects - what isnt by any mean true). In fact, Brazilian books are 100% understood, but it is not in the taste of the portuguese reader and the proper European ortography. Not all books are adapted: José Saramago isnt adapted in Brazil and Jorge Amado isnt in Portugal. That doesnt happen with Paulo Coelho, it is light literature, so it is always adapted. Brazilian influence in Portugal is similar to the US influence in the UK. Brazilian soap operas (not dubbed) are for some 25 years on Portuguese TV and always in the TOP 3 of the most watched programmes and there are numerous Brazilian publications in Portugal. I'm calmed down I expect you also to be. -Pedro 01:32, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Pedro, buddy, I'm very calm. I like the way the sentence is worded now. I'm sure that the differences between formal speech and writing of most regions that share a language is closer together than the vernacular(slang). The vernacular is always the place where the most change takes place. The old sentence simply did not express this. On a similar note, I'm not sure what "cultivated" portuguese is meant to mean in that same paragraph. Could you elaborate (if you know)? Thank you. ThePedanticPrick 18:53, 21 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've translated "culto" to "cultivated". And it has the same meaning that the one of "educated". In Angola for instance, the rich people, politicians, etc. speak a Portuguese in an identical way to standard Portuguese (spoken, written), while part of the population speaks differently. For instance, I've African friends that speak a more standardized form of Portuguese than me.

for instante: it is very common to hear Angolans say: "Tu fala isso!" = You "speaks" that! instead of "tu falas isso!". This issue occurs in Brazil, exactly the same way. And, also people use a lot of slang, that even if Portuguese people also use it, both aren't used in the standard form. That is what it means, the problem is how to write that in a short paragraph.

This occurs with written but also the spoken Portuguese. Obviously, The vernaculars of Portugal is also different from the standard. I think it would be interesting to write that Brazilian dialects, are based on southern Portuguese dialects, are very preservative (Portuguese spoken in the 18th century, except for Rio that has influence of European Portuguese of a later time -19th/early 20th centuries) and in some Brazilian dialect we can find particularities of a given dialect in Portugal (north to south) - this is interresting, due that Portugal's dialects vary more than Brazil's, at least the main ones. But the problem is the same: is this really needed? Arent we assuming to much? (needless to say, this is not exactly this way and, the article will grow to much. And, the enclyclopedia is in English, so it is not very important, because the person that will read, will not understand it anyway, and will make a confusion out of that - just like you make in thinking: "it is maybe too different and they dont understand each other". -Pedro 23:57, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

By the way, Coimbra dialect is considered the most cultivated because of the pronunciation. If you can rephrase the paragraph, please do. -Pedro 10:31, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Just to mention: Tu fala is not a "serious" subject in Portuguese than an English speaker might think.

you speak (singular) can be said, two ways: Angolans and Brazilians do is, in fact, mixing both.

tu falas and
você fala

The last one is the most used in Brazil, the "tu fala" occurs in some dialects in Brazil. In Portugal both are used depending on the situation or person that we are talking. Talking to another person is very complex in Portuguese. Obviously, this doesnt makes these dialects creoles, not even semi-creoles. The language is much more than this. -Pedro 23:06, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Request for references

Hi, I am working to encourage implementation of the goals of the Wikipedia:Verifiability policy. Part of that is to make sure articles cite their sources. This is particularly important for featured articles, since they are a prominent part of Wikipedia. The Fact and Reference Check Project has more information. Thank you, and please leave me a message when you have added a few references to the article. - Taxman 20:00, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I've added some that I used. Later, I'll add more.-Pedro 00:27, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Great, thank you, please do. - Taxman 03:24, Apr 24, 2005 (UTC)

Portuguese vs. French

Latest comment: 20 years ago9 comments3 people in discussion

The statements on Portuguese being related to French are untrue. The only phonological similarity is nasalization, which was probably a separate, unrelated development in each.

Benwing 03:47, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

you can't tell it is a coincidence. It probably isn't. But I think it is really unnecessary to have so much text on it. If you can decrease it, please do. That is too controversial, so do has you want, but less text on it. I also disagree on your edits on hello and yes in the examples for Brazil, it makes a very wrong idea of things, because it is not the same has banheiro, or a difference. That section is not only for turist help but examples of the language. But overall, thanks for your edits, especially on the evolution of the language! ;)-Pedro 11:00, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Under 'hello' in Collins Pratico Dicionario, you see "oi! (BR), ola! (PT)". Also, i'm not sure what you mean by "Gali~a". the first vowel was nasalized; the ~ should not go between them. Benwing 02:12, 1 May 2005 (UTC)Reply
Buy a new one, I suggest Dicionário Houaiss if you speak Portuguese, it brings all the regional lexicon from several countries. Good if you want to study it. It has examples and word origin. The only problem: it is expensive. Oi is a brasileirismo (Brazileism !?!? lol). It is also used in Portugal. Olá is used for Hello, while oi for hi. "olá" is used in both countries. You are right about that on the nazalization, but for the example, the best is to keep in there to help people to understand, and because it was displaying incorrectly. Please reduce the info on French.-Pedro 10:34, 1 May 2005 (UTC)Reply
- I like your style, Pedro. If it helps, a literal translation of brasileirismo would be brazilianism. It sounds like natural english, though I've never heard it used, and it has a nice ring to it, I think. I'll work on slimming down the french bit right now. Let me know what you think. Tchau! ThePedanticPrick 16:14, 1 May 2005 (UTC)Reply

Brasileirismo in Portuguese is the name given to Brazilian origin words in the language. The section on French is great now. Really!!! thx.;) -Pedro 17:20, 1 May 2005 (UTC)Reply
Pedro, have you ever been to Brazil? I've spent months there. No one says "Olá". Please don't impose Portugal-centric POV's on Portuguese. Benwing 22:05, 1 May 2005 (UTC)Reply

OMG - I'm not imposing nothing. Then go to the Portuguese language wiki and ask people! You are surely one more that read VBS. -Pedro 23:13, 1 May 2005 (UTC)Reply

please register on the port.lang. wikipedia. and send me a messege in there, and I'll try to get a person to talk to you. yes, oi is very common has I said, it means hi. That doesnt mean the word doesnt exist or used. Oi is Oi; Olá is Olá; Adeus is Adeus; Tchau is Tchau. 1 is 1; 2 is 2! mixing both is stupid. -Pedro 23:22, 1 May 2005 (UTC)Reply

i don't want to get in a big argument over this. it's just that every page i've seen related to portuguese has a heavy portugal-centric bias (for example, the list of "famous portuguese-speaking authors" omits machado de assis, considered the best brazilian author); much of it is simply wrong for brazil, based on my experience living there. i assume you wrote this stuff; that's why i'm saying this.

no one in brazil says any of 'ola' or 'adeus' or 'a vossa'. (and go tell a brazilian you are waiting "na bicha" and see what their reaction is!) the collins dictionary that you dismiss was written by brazilians and from everything i've seen in brazil it's highly accurate for brazilian portuguese. under "goodbye" is has "ate logo" (BR), "adeus" (PT); tchau is informal but most brazilians would say it in contexts that americans say "goodbye". Benwing 03:36, 2 May 2005 (UTC)Reply

You are completly out of your mind. Do you know what "bom dia" is? or "até logo"? you dont even know how to say "dicionário pratico". \ɾ\ is not marginal there, especially in São Paulo, prefered for use in TV for instance. \ɲ\ is not marginal in Brazil, also, but more marginal than \ɾ\. \w\ is not a consonant. You've completly destroyed the sound table, putting enourmous and biased info on it (are you trying to explain all the Brazilian dialects in it)??. You are... forget it!

I think reverting is not a god thing.

olá in Brazil: [4] 1.260.000 hits just for the country.

adeus:[5] 314.000.

in fact, à vossa is not very much used. the most common in tchin-tchin.

"bom dia" means "good morning"

"até logo" means "see you later" I think you just need an oscar for the linguist of the year. -Pedro 11:38, 2 May 2005 (UTC)Reply