Talk:Christianity

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The cross

Right now there is only one graphic in the article, a nice illustration of the ichthys fish, and no mention of the cross in the entire article. I suggest that if there is only to be one illustration in this article, that it be a cross, not the fish. Although I see no reason not to keep the fish as well.

According to tradition, the ichthys fish was pretty much just used as a secret code among the early church. It has not been in wide use, or even widely recognized among Christians, for most of church history. The recent resurgence of the the fish among Western (or at least American) Christians is something of a '90s fad. Somehow this fish meme got started, and it played to the religious right notion that Christians were being persecuted in secular culture, and thus became a popular fixture on bumper-stickers and jewelry, much like the whole WWJD? thing. The fish hasn't disappeared and isn't likely to anytime soon, but it is already much less prominent than it was in the height of fish-promotion.

By contrast, the cross was established very early in the Catholic church as a Christian symbol, and among virtually all of the three major branches of the church mentioned in the article--Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestants,--the cross is recognized as the symbol of the Christian church. While there are many variations of the Christian cross preferred by various groups, a plain cross consisting of a vertical bar and a shorter horizontal bar is universally recognized as a Christian symbol. There are a few groups, mostly on the fringes like the Mormons and Moonies, that do not typically use the cross.

All that to say that I think there should be a graphic of a cross and some mention of the symbol in the text of the article. 141.158.238.201 22:17, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It took less than a month, but I'm firing in the requested picture - comments/suggestions welcome. I've used elements of ...238.201's text for the caption. Krupo 19:57, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

While I would not agree entirely with the "christian right" notion above - maybe in America, but probably not in Europe, where the fish is recognised fairly universally as a Christian symbol, I do agree with the general argument above. Also, I think the shorter explnation on the fish which was in use a while ago was better and more to the point Refdoc 22:40, 1 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The Christian Cross is certainly a much more widely used symbol of Christianity, both around the world and down through the centuries. It would be worth putting it in either instead of or in addition to the ichthus. Wesley 01:36, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Agree. Tom 22:01, 3 Aug 2004 (UTC)

So the photo's in, although I'm wondering how to make the layout look better. I tried putting the cross on the left and leaving the Ichtys on the right, but the cross then collided with the 'map' of branches. Any better ideas? :) Krupo 20:00, Aug 29, 2004 (UTC)

I've shortened the cross caption slightly and moved the icthus picture down one paragraph. Is there any chance of making the cross picture a bit smaller? It'll probably look better that way! --GRutter 22:36, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Agreed, good edit, btw. Making it smaller is simple - just add 999px, where 999 is the desired width. I set it to 150px, which looks sort of okay, but the big gap caused by the contents sucked. I swapped the fish/cross in a preview, but that looked worse, so I stuck with the previous layout. 140px is probably as low as you can go before the text in the caption gets too jumbled up. The super-last-resort alternative of adding more text to fill up that big white gap became extremely tempting, so I added in a bit of material that helps bridge the intro into the next section. The intro was hashed out super-fast, help definitely appreciated. :) Krupo 20:15, Aug 30, 2004 (UTC)

Actually the Icthys is pre-christian, and was used by people and philosophers such as Pythagorus (who believed it to have mystical power). It owes its origin to a mathematical construction: take two circles whose centres are seperated by half the radius, the Icthys is the overlap plus the two "tails" of the circle upto the tangent to each circle parallel to the central line of intersection. This should be easy to see/ or visualise.

The mathematical ratio of the length of the icthys to its height as expressed by the pythagoreans was as the ratio of two whole numbers. The particular numbers in question happen entirely by coincidence (cough) to be the numbers involved in the story of the "feeding of the five thousand". This biblical tale can also be viewed as a simple pythagorean formula for the Icthys symbol.

This was reasonably well known at the time the New Testament was authored, and points to a deeper meaning to the tale for those in the know. See Mystery religion for details of these sorts of tales. --81.156.179.151 20:57, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the cross is a pre-christian symbol as well. It occurs in many of the (then common) meditteranean Mystery Religions, for example, in the Osiris cult, it is the Ankh symbol.--81.156.179.151 20:54, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

80.49.239.231's edits

An anon IP (User:80.41.239.231) is making a lot of edits to the article (see 80.41.231.239's contributions). Can someone more knowledgable than me check them out?

Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 19:43, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Emergence of National Churches

Why does the hard fact part of this article keep getting modified (that there was an election, that there was conflict), but no one seems fit to edit the poor grammar and logical flow of the rest of it? Are some simple facts to hard to handle they need multiple revisions, yet good grammar and article quality don't deserve a little attention?

Probably because the misrepresentation of the current text is so great. (I don't know what it has been replaced with, other than the one time I edited it.) As the text now reads, it sounds as though nobody thought that Jesus was divine, but Constantine made them have a vote on it and *POOF*, he became divine. That representation of the facts is very much leaning toward the atheist/skeptical viewpoint.

The problem is, there was very much a disagreement about the nature of Christ's divinity. One faction, led by Athanasius, or Saint Athanasius as the Catholic Church now knows him, succeeded in that election. So in fact, yes, this was a seminal moment. And in fact, both parties in the disagreement were self styled Christians- despite the question of Jesus' divinity. Therefore at that juncture Christianity took a defining turn. I don't think it is honest to gloss over that. And I think, if anything, Christianity should be honest.

How's this for an alternative?

In the early years of Christianity there was a dispute about the nature of Jesus, whether he was just a man (opinion put forward by Arius, among others) or whether he was divine (opinion put forward by Alexander of Alexandria, among others). The issue was settled by vote at the First Council of Nicaea in 325.

The comment about "paving the way for the divine right of the Catholic Church" is POV and offensive, and IMO adds nothing to the article. Catholicism and Orthodoxy remained united for 700 years after that moment. Mpolo 09:10, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

It's hardly POV Mpolo. Do a little research. Certainly the Catholic Church has done a lot of things it currently may not be proud of, and there is no point in concealing yet one more facet of that history.

Could someone explain exactly what the "divine right of the Catholic Church" is? Further, it is very POV that the Church "took a turn" at the Council of Nicaea. The supporters of Athanasius and of Arius each accused the others of changing Christian doctrine by affirming or denying Jesus' divinity. To state that this was a change is to unilaterally uphold the Arian POV. Wesley 04:09, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In sum; before Nicaea, there were Christians who were Trinitarian and Christians who were not. They disagreed on the divinity question. After the election one side, Arius's side, was eradicated and the disagreeing views, and all written records, were burned, exhiled, etc. This established the subsequent tone for the succeeding centuries, whereby trinitarianism was dominant. It is therefore revisinistic to claim that there was no determination here.

Sorry, but your history seems to be incomplete. Far from being eradicated, Arianism actually dominated much of Christianity during the fourth century. Athanasius was banished from Alexandria at least five different times, perhaps as many as seven times, because of his opposition to Arianism. (He was also tried for murder, but exonerated when the supposed victim appeared at trial to testify on his behalf.) Certainly there were Arians before Nicaea, but it's debatable whether there were Arians prior to the fourth century. Arius himself didn't start teaching his view until I think around 309 or so; it spread quickly partly because he was also skilled at writing catchy tunes that reflected his theology. So it's not at all clear that there was a big change at the Council of Nicaea, even if it was deterministic in the sense of fending of both Arius and other future innovations in theology. Wesley 17:52, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That's like saying that after 9/11, Osama has been running free- even though we all know the U.S. has been doing what it can to get rid of him. There were two basic things that came from the first council of Nicaea- setting the date for Easter (yawn), and basically excommunication/exhiling/banning Arius and his followers- why? Because their ideas were a greater threat to the goals of Constantine and Athanasius/the Early Catholic Church than any other things out there.

Sorry, I don't quite follow your analogy to Osama bin Laden. Constantine's main objective in calling the council was to promote or attain unity among the Christians. Some historians think he actually favored the Arians before the council, but let the bishops decide and then went with their decision. Athanasius was trying to defend the Christian faith as he understood it from what he believed was a grave error. Incidentally, Athanasius himself was only a deacon at the Council of Nicaea and so didn't have a vote, although he was present as assistant to the Patriarch of Alexandria and I think was allowed to speak there. He had been opposing Arius for some time prior to the council, since both were from Egypt. He was by no means the only vocal opponent of Arius at the council. Wesley \

Getting back to the point, can we agree that the Arians and Orthodox both thought they were espousing the 'original' Christianity, and each accused the other of inventing a new doctrine regarding Jesus Christ? Wesley 17:50, 12 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Reaffirm? So America reaffirmed that Bush should stay in office? 24.176.6.165 17:39, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

"decided that Jesus was always/is God " This is the primary statement of the Council of Nicaea. There was debate about whether God exhisted before Christ, etc. The Council resolved that Jesus is and always had been God. That is in fact the statement of the Council, the result of the Council, and it should be recorded rather than all this pussyfooting around the subject. This statement alone accounts for so much subsequent history it is negligent to omit it. 24.176.6.165 17:59, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The problem is that, as you have stated it, this can be interpreted as the thesis of a certain book of pseudo-history called The Da Vinci Code. This is not the thesis of serious scholars of Church history (or very few scholars of Church history). Arius's teaching was something new. It's not that the Christians were divided from day one on this issue, and the council "decided it". The vast majority were with the "is God" viewpoint, until Arius started spreading his doctrine, starting between 315 and 317. (Arius didn't work in a vacuum, of course. The school of Antioch was tending in that direction even with its founder Lucian of Antioch, who some scholars see as the true father of Arianism. He saw his conclusions as coming directly out of the Gospel, of course.) But the theory was largely limited to that city until Arius' efforts. At the moment the Council was held, there was considerable discussion, and even a large number of bishops supporting the Arian view, but that division only dates from less than forty years previous to the council. The statement you want to put in could easily be interpreted to mean that "no one thought that Jesus was God, but the Council had a vote and imposed that belief", as Dan Brown would have us believe. This is simply false. Mpolo 18:49, Nov 16, 2004 (UTC)

Although I have heard of the The Davinci Code I have never actually read it. However, the writings of Athanasius and others can be found on the Writings of the Church Father's website and clearly demonstrates a very meaningful discourse. Mpolo, you are making straw man arguments (the opposite argument in an extreme case is false, therefore your entire argument is false; for example, there are Democrats who have been members of the KKK, therefore all Democrats are racist) and diminishing the topic. There is a crucial point here that is very pivotal and it has demonstrated itself in the response by various non-Catholic/Orthodox religions from Islam to Mormonism to many flavors of Protestantism regarding this very debate. 24.176.6.165 20:51, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My point is that the way this is being stated implies a state of affairs that isn't true. Yes, there was a lot of discussion on the issue. However, the discussion stemmed from the last 40-50 years before the council (one could argue that the opinion existed but was never formalized, but that argument remains speculation, since we don't have any documents to back that up). That's why the wording "reaffirmed" is better. We can and should make it clear that there was a division. (Which, by the way, didn't end with the vote of the council, as some of those who have supported your wording in the past might argue.) What we can't do is pretend that there is no sign of unity on the issue before Arius. I'll try to think up an alternative formulation to satisfy both sides here. Mpolo 08:16, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

The reaffirm implies that the Trinity / both God and man in past present and future dualism was in place before 40-50 years beforehand; however, that theory was posited by Athanasius in an attempt to solve the conundrum. Do we have any non-biased sources that support this, that have not been tainted by the Church, that support the Trinitarian concept before 250 AD? Even 1 John 5:7/1 John 5:8 has been a forgery conducted to support the Trinitarian concept added later on; we need some unbiased evidence that it was there beforehand- and I don't think the Catholic Church will be the source of such an unbiased document, intrinsically. 24.176.6.165 14:01, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Several references to early trinitarianism

(Back to the left) Here are several references:

Didache 7:1 (dates from about AD 70): "After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit"

Although Didache mentions them separately there is no indication that he is stating that Jesus is God; in fact, quite the opposite; does one say 'pay your bill to AT&T, Bell South, and Ma Bell?' No, it would be illogical to write the same concept three times unless you were trying to make a point. Unless Didache were in fact making that singular point, the statement undermines rather than supports a mainstream concept that Jesus is and always had been God. 24.176.6.165 18:16, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Ignatius of Antioch (AD 110) : "[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God"

From the Wikipedia on Ignatius: Nowadays only the shorter variants of those seven letters are thought to be genuine writings of Ignatius. Their longer variants are thought to be emendations from the fifth century, created to postumously enlist Ignatius as an unwitting witness into certain theological fights of that age, while the other letters bearing his name, and the purported eye-witness account of his martyrdom, are thought to be pure forgeries from around the same time. 24.176.6.165

Justin Martyr (AD 151): "We will prove that we worship him reasonably, for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things, but they are ignorant of the Mystery which lies therein"

Second is hardly identical. 24.176.6.165

Athenagorus (AD 177): "The Son of God is the Word of the Father in thought and actuality. By him and through him all things were made, the Father and the Son being one. Since the Son is in the Father and the Father is in the Son by the unity and power of the Spirit, the Mind and Word of the Father is the Son of God. And if, in your exceedingly great wisdom, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by ‘the Son,’ I will tell you briefly: He is the first-begotten of the Father, not as having been produced, for from the beginning God had the Word in himself, God being eternal mind and eternally rational, but as coming forth [from the Father] to be the model and energizing force of all material things"
Theophius (AD 180): "It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all, for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom"
Ireneus (AD 189): "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation, and in the Holy Spirit."

This doesn't state that Jesus is and always had been God. Further, one of Ireneus' books is 'On the Detection and Overthrow of the So-Called Gnosis', demonstrating an early mainstream debate on Christ's divinity. 24.176.6.165 18:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Tertullian (AD 216): "Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit"

Tertullian was one Partisan in a spiritual debate against Marchion; this is more of the same sort of thing we see around the time of Nicaea; and Tertullian is one side. This hardly counts as evidence that there was a universal Christian understanding of the trinity, instead it supports the idea that the debate went a lot earlier than 50 years before Nicaea, to at least as you point out, 216. See the Tertullian Project at [1] for an example. 24.176.6.165

More from Tertullian: "Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These Three are one essence, not one Person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are One’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of Being, not singularity of number"
Hippolytus (228): "The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the Being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God"

Here we have an example of someone stating that the Spiritual transcends the temporal; there is not explicit statement that Jesus is and always was God. 24.176.6.165

Origen (225): "No, rejecting every suggestion of corporeality, we hold that the Word, the Wisdom, was begotten out of the invisible and incorporeal God, without anything corporal being acted upon . . . the expression which we employ, however, that there was never a time when he did not exist, is to be taken with a certain allowance. For these very words ‘when’ and ‘never’ are terms of temporal significance, while whatever is said of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit is to be understood as transcending all time, all ages, and all eternity"

This does not say that Origen states the 'the Son is God' - what it says is that the discussion of these divine concepts transcends time- which it may well; however, one could also argue that the ten commandments transcend time as well. 24.176.6.165 18:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

More Origen: "For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages"

Again, this is a statement that the spiritual concepts transcend time; they do not state that Jesus is and always was God. 24.176.6.165 18:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Novatian (235): "For Scripture announces Christ is also God, as it announces God himself is man. It has described Jesus Christ to be man, as it has also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth him to be the Son of God only, but also the Son of Man; nor does it only say, the Son of Man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of him as the Son of God. So that being of both, he is both, lest if he should be one only, he could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be a man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes also that he must be believed to be God who is of God . . . Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of Man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God"

Novatian sounds very odd and one may wonder about how mainstream were his views: see the Catholic Encyclopedia on Novation at [2]. 24.176.6.165 18:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pope Dionysius (262): "Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were—I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist, and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd"

Unfortunately as I said Pope Dionysius is part of the Catholic Church, by definition, and had something to gain/ was biased. 24.176.6.165

More Pope Dionysius: "Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty, and in Christ Jesus, his Son, and in the Holy Spirit and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. ‘For,’ he says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’"

Gregory is more recent and about the same timeframe as the early Arian movements. 24.176.6.165

Gregory Thaumaturgus (265): "There is one God . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity nor anything caused to be brought about, as if at some former period it was non-existent and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but, without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever"

So where is your evidence that Arius' doctrine predates him and Lucian of Antioch? (Note that I included quotes from Tertullian, a Montanist, Hippolytus, an anti-Pope, and Origen, whom the Catholic Church has never considered a saint, though I think the Orthodox do.) -- Mpolo 15:18, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

Clearly as many of your example's primary writings centered around debates about the divinity of Jesus Christ, there is no demonstrable evidence that early Christians were uniform in believing in the Jesus is and always was God concept. There was in fact an ongoing debate that far preceded Arius and his teacher. 24.176.6.165 18:10, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

This argument is really getting pointless. You have a point of view for which you can present no evidence, and have essentially said that anyone who is Catholic will be rejected out of hand, and at the same time reject anyone who is not Catholic (Novatian was an antipope) out of hand as non-mainstream.

I have admitted that there was discussion. The witness of a wide range of writers though, is meant to show "consensus". The First Council of Nicaea did not represent a break with tradition, but rather confirmed the belief of the majority of early witnesses. Perhaps "reaffirm" is the wrong word, though, as it might imply that there was no discussion at all before Arius. Let me try a more long-winded, but hopefully more accurate phrasing:

The question of Jesus's divinity was central to early Christians. A wide range of early writers, including Justin Martyr and Tertullian testify to belief that Jesus was God, or that he was second only to God the Father. At the same time, various groups arose that denied this teaching. The situation came to a head with the teaching of Arius, who brought large numbers of bishops and faithful to his belief that Jesus was a created being. The issue was settled by vote at the First Council of Nicaea, where the teaching later championed by Athanasius was enshrined as dogma. Arianism continued to exist for several decades after the decision of the council.

Is that acceptable? We ought to include the name of at least one pre-Arian Christological heresy that denies the divinity of Christ (Marcionism was more the relation between Old and New Testaments, not denying the divinity of Christ at all, making him the son of the "good God" of the New Testament.) Mpolo 18:56, Nov 17, 2004 (UTC)

I'd go far that one. 24.176.6.165 19:12, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cross

I think the insertion that

and in some groups it is considered idolatry and not used in worship.

Is worthy of inclusion somehow. Rather than simply deleting it, we should probably incorporate it. As for an image for Christianity, I think it is appropriate that there be a cross with an explanation in the caption that the cross is the generally recognized icon of Christianity, though some Christian groups don't identify with its use. In other words, we can include the NPOV-requisite disclaimer without getting into particulars of idolatry and worship. Tom 18:37, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The only thing we have to do in my opinion is throw a bone to people who are going to be continually tempted to chip in their two cents because the cross is at the top of the page and they say, "Wait, that's not *my* Christianity!". Sheer entropy control is all I am after. If we can come up with something that will tend to stabilize the page, then we are making progress. I tried a non-specific reference that I thought might work. And I think maybe in this case a very brief, non-specific reference will satisfy people. If we say LDS and JW, then before we know it someone comes along and disagrees. The anon who made that edit will be back, and for two considerations, we need to be sure he is happy. 1) We want him as a Wikipedian. 2) We don't want to continually have to fight him. I don't want to be disagreeable, but could we do something a little more non-specific, but still accurate? Tom 20:52, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

restore caption for now -- it seems weird to refer to it as an icon for "Non-Christians"

The non-Christian POV of the cross is quite important. The cross is the world symbol of Christianity even if I don't choose to use it in my worship and iconography. Tom 21:05, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

IMHO, while the first points are true for some very small number of the world's Christians, noting it in the caption for a cross very much overemphasizes the matter. Can it be put somewhere in the text of the article? And as far as the second, while it is true, I would argue that it is not an essential characteristic of the cross, and that that should go into the article Christian cross if it's not there already. Thanks, BCorr|Брайен 21:07, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

What does a fellow ask himself when he visits that causes him to change the image caption? I think he says a few things:

"Why did they choose the cross as the main image for this page?" Anybody could ask this, and only a few months ago the icon was a fish. I believe it should be a cross, though perhaps a more generic two black lines instead of somebody's wooden cross.
"Why don't they say that some people don't use the cross as their personal icon of Christianity? My POV is not being represented here." We apparently have to address this or explain briefly why we are using the cross as the illustration for the article. (I again think we are right, but apparently we need to justify it.)
"I am going to explain here that some don't use the cross. After all, it says Edit this Page right there." I think we have to head this off.

Now, I grant that 30 million known official non-users of the cross in LDS and JW are small compared to 2 billion Christians and 4 billion humans. Perhaps we should let this issue go for a while. But if it keeps popping up again, we are eventually going to be forced to throw that POV a bone in good Wikipedia fashion. Thinking now was the time to do it, I jumped in to try. But maybe I am premature. Tom 22:42, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to remove the part of that caption that talks about it being established as a Christian symbol in the fourth century based on these earlier references:

Paul says in I Corinthians that he will boast in nothing but the Cross (as opposed to his academic training, lineage, etc.);
The Epistle of Barnabas (first or second century) discusses the symbolism of the cross as found in the Old Testament, including Moses' outstretched arms during the Israelite's battle with the Amalekites. So the author of the epistle already saw it as a symbol of salvation and victory for God's people;
Ignatius of Antioch also writes about the cross as a symbol in his Epistle to the Trallians, again no later than the second century.

If these references are deemed insufficient, I'm confident I can find more. I can also look up more precise references and actual quotes of the three alluded to above if anyone wants those. I just don't have them in front of me right now. Wesley 16:02, 30 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Analitical materials

The Original Teaching of Jesus Christ

1) "Christianity" in Wikipedia is not only christian's view. The article, which not contain different views, is non-enciclopedian, but only "confession". It is not good.

2) This material is not commercial information.

3) This book was written with blessing of God and under His guidance and contan deep knowledge.

4) I think you not read this book yet.

Sorry for my bad english,

Yours faithfully, Skywalker

I removed the "Original teaching" link, and wrote "v minority, POV link". I think that this is an accurate statement. To answer your points - 1. The article isn't written from a Christian's point of view - it's pretty neutral I think. 2. I didn't consider this when deleting the link. 3. That's your point of view - I'd seriously disagree with it, but again that isn't why I deleted it. 4. No, I haven't read all of it, but I have read a few of the pages.

The reason I deleted it is because the book makes unverifiable statements about what its author believes to be true. It does not attempt to reconstruct the orignal teaching of Jesus by any historical, textual criticism or scientific method that I can see. The text itself is probably more Gnostic than Christian, while the website on which it is published is syncreistic. I think that the purpose of the Christianity article should be to present information on the beliefs of mainstream and large minority groups, and on groups who disagree with these beliefs. I think that the current article does that, but I don't think that the addition of the link accurately represents what is believed about Christianity by any significant minority of people. Wikipedia is not a collection of websites - we'd soon be swamped if we included every website which discusses Chrisitanity. I think we can only choose the most appropriate to list, and I'm afraid that in my opinion, this website is not on that list.

Furthermore, I note that a link to the same book (on a different webiste) is also listed on the Jesus page - I certainly don't think it needs to be listed twice. I hope that this helps you understand why I deleted your link. If people disagree with me, then I'm sure they'll say and the link will be re-instated. --G Rutter 10:10, 24 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I think the true christianity is not "crosses" or "fishes"... It is not symbols. I think the christianity doctrine is not only approved of God (Thrinity, Father, Son) existence...

This is only packing of christianity... But this box is empty now.

Where is content? True content of this theaching is LOVE, but people removed it (removed out of maind, hearts and encyclopedias ) :) I read this word in Biblie, but I can't find word "Love" in this article... Doctrine without Love is dead, this is only description of christianity "box".

I think the spirit of this doctrine may be discribed here.

Unfortunately, my english language is bad and can't write about it in article. Could you do it?

"listed twice" - You are right, this is my mistake.

Yours faithfully, Skywalker

Lack of balance

This article is generally good but one-sided. I believe that there should be a section on criticism of Christianity, including some mention of the mass murder and cultural destruction that it has wrought over the past two thousand years. What do others think? Shorne 17:08, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Done and done. See this in the main article, and this article. The article on the Catholic church has a section too. Having said all that, a link to the Crusades would be handy - that's been added too. Wiki's got it. Krupo 20:12, Oct 5, 2004 (UTC)

Christian or Christian?

So what is an adherent? An editor just chaned adherent to claimant. While making the case ambiguous (claiming what?), the debate goes, what makes someone Christian? Mostly it comes from the Christian belief that a person can belong to only one religion. I personally belong to four religions. If someone says that they are a Christian does that make them one? I think the question is complicated by the fact that different religions retain membership in different ways. For instance, Jews are Jews only if they are a convert or have Jewish mother. The ambiguousness comes to a head when we add all the Christian denominations. 70% of Americans consider themselves born-again Christians, just because they are not babtised and don't attend Church who are you to say they aren't Christians? --[[User:Sunborn|metta, The Sunborn ☸]] 20:29, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Leave it as adherent. More standard for this type of usage, I say. Tom - Talk 20:38, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Claimant may not be the best word, but adherent is a distortion. The Roman Catholic Church, to which most Christians belong, keeps people on the books once they're listed as Catholics and is generally quite obstructive about removing their names when asked to do so. Hundreds of millions of "Catholics" never go to a church or otherwise practise Christianity; many of them are adherents of another religion or atheists. I very much doubt whether there is any basis to the claim that two billion people in the world actually believe in the dogma of any variety of Christianity. Shorne 20:50, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Yeah, you may be right, but I think that the estimates used were from cenci which would be more accurate. The problem of maintaining internal lists is also seen in Mormonism and Bahai. So I magine that these things were considered. --The Sunborn

The most credible numbers I've seen (overall) are at www.adherents.com. At least there they account for all people and make the numbers add up to 5 billion (or whatever :-) ). Tom - Talk 21:41, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I cannot believe that these things were taken into account. Two billion is about 80% of the population of the world outside non-Soviet Asia. Do you honestly believe that that many people are Christians? Shorne 22:16, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I had a look at www.adherents.com. Here's an example of the distortion that I mentioned: the first six presidents of the US were non-Christians, yet three of them are listed as Episcopalians. (Two of the others as Unitarians, the remaining one as being of "no specific denomination".) If this place doesn't compile accurate data on forty-odd individuals whose biographies are widely available, how reliable can it be on such matters as the religious affiliations of all the people in the world? Shorne 22:25, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, who are you going to cite as more reliable? I realize it is challenging, but is there a better answer other than original research? Also, it sounds like there is dispute about what the religion of a particular person (president) is. Tom - Talk 23:28, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't have any research to cite. Being an atheist, I don't really care much about the relative popularity of various religions that are all wrong anyway. But that doesn't mean that the "research" of www.adherents.com is any good. Hell, it lists juche as a religion—the tenth largest in the world, no less—, when it's nothing but a political ideology.

I checked their "research" and found that a number of their sources go back to the Encyclopædia Britannica, which does use church membership as its starting point. In other words, lots of people are counted as Catholics without even knowing it, merely because at some point their parents had them registered as such with a church. Shorne 01:27, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Um, that is a fallacy of small sample size. I will demonstraight. The first presidents are a special case as I listed above, people can be more than one religion. Many of the founding fathers of the united states were not christian, but actually deists. This would not have looked so great in a land with many Christians so many still went to church and acted and called themselves Christians. The non-religion presidents were probably deists too. --The Sunborn

Jefferson made no secret of being a non-Christian. "Episcopalian" Washington escorted his wife to church every week but stood outside the sanctuary and waited for her, so repugnant was Christianity to him. Two of the first six US presidents were Unitarians—an inoffensive way to say "atheists". It's not clear to me that these four, at any rate, called themselves Christians. Shorne 01:27, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

As for the sample size, I agree that the methodologies will be different. But I think that there is enough evidence to cast doubt on the numbers posted at www.adherents.com, as I indicated above. Shorne 01:27, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

George_Washington#Religious_beliefs. ??? Can somebody do a better job than adherents.com? If so, cite them. Tom - Talk 23:31, 6 Oct 2004 (UTC)

First statement in image caption

I think the first statement the cross is an ancient Christian symbol is POV. Jehovah's Witnesses and some historians don't believe that. See also Talk:Christian cross. Rantaro 03:24, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You are correct that would make it POV. But are you disputing the meaning of ancient? What exactly don't you believe? Tom - Talk 03:48, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

See Talk:Christian_cross#Moved_from_article. Rantaro 09:42, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Poll on image and caption

What do you propose would be the ideal:

The ideal primary image for the article? Tom - Talk

I can't think of a good reason why Wikipedia can't use a cross as the primary image for this article despite the fact I don't have one in my home. Christianity is iconized in the world with a cross, and that's just the way it is. I don't like the cross that is there right now. It looks too much like a Catholic believer's cross. I think a simple black painted cross like a small t without a tail would be perfect for Wikipedia. If I were to disregard tradition and world opinion, I might prefer a picture of a man in a white or red (blood-stained) robe with arms stretched down and out out and apparent nail prints in hands, feet, and wrists with clouds in the background representing the risen Lord of Christianity.Tom - Talk 03:46, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The ideal NPOV caption if the image must be a cross? Tom - Talk

The cross is recognized across the world as a symbol of Christianity. Tom - Talk 03:46, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

oops, changed before reading talk, sorry guys. I didn't touch ancient and the edit was well summarized though. --[[User:Sunborn|metta, The Sunborn ☸]] 04:02, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Most people think that the cross is an ancient symbol... What?!? Earlier on this page, I've quoted from St. Paul in the New Testament, the Epistle of Barnabas, and Ignatius of Antioch as examples of early Christians using the cross as a symbol in their writings. Are these uses contested? How many more examples does it take? It seems easier to make the argument that Jesus never existed at all, than to make the argument that there weren't any Christians who wrote about the cross and what it symbolized. Someone please enlighten me. Wesley 04:17, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think that the cross is the best symbol to use and that the caption should read something like "The cross is widely recognised as an ancient Christian symbol", etc. In addition to Wesley's quotes, the earliest image I've been able to find is from the grave of Rufinas and Irene (early 3rd century), although there is also the anti-Christian graffiti "Alexamenos worships his God", (late 2nd century) which shows a person with a donkey's head being crucified on a cross. I got this info from The Lion Handbook History of Christianity, but the images can be seen online at Bible Picture Gallery. I don't think there can be any serious historical doubt that the cross is a very ancient Christian symbol. --G Rutter 09:28, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that Jesus died on cross, but on stake. See Talk:Christian_cross#Moved_from_article. Then I think you understand this is POV. --Rantaro 09:52, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The objections of the Jehovah's Witnesses to the cross as a valid symbol are quite rightly documented both on the Christian cross page and on the pages dealing specifically with Jehovah's Witnesses. However, the vast majority of people, both Christian and non-Christian, associate the cross with Christianity. The Jehovah's Witnesses were founded in the 1870's and only abandoned the use of the cross in 1936 (according to Wikipedia). The historical evidence that Wesley and I have cited shows that the cross was used early on as a symbol of Christianity, and so the statement "the cross is an ancient Christian symbol" is therefore factually accurate. I therefore think that removing the cross as the first symbol on the Christianity page is actually more POV than leaving it there. --G Rutter 14:13, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Any good Christain and non-Christian should know the fish was the first symbol of Christiandom. It was use in "Jesus's Lifetime" occording to biased sources. Also, it was found in a Christian grave circa 74AD. First no, primary yes. ---The Sunborn

It might be possible for the JW's to insist that Jesus died on a stake, but that later Christians mistakenly thought he died on a cross. They already disagree with other assertions of the early church. So, saying the cross was used early on as a symbol of Christianity doesn't necessarily contradict the JW's, any more than saying that early Christians thought Jesus was God. JW's admit this, just say that they were wrong on this point, as far as I understand. See Great Apostasy for instance. Wesley 16:22, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

We need to stop arguing about the cross and make it look better. The Islam article is head and shoulders about this one in the aesthetic category. We need a simple two-tone computer-generated cross graphic and a Christianity series box like the Islam one. Tom - Talk 04:15, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Jesus as son of God

It says- "The vast majority of christians believe that Jesus is the son of God" All True christians believe that Jesus is the son of God. Nintendomon74 21:14, Oct 7, 2004 (UTC)

JW also believe that Jesus is the son of God. If your definition is right, JW are "True" Christians. Rantaro 00:47, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Then the question is, which Christians don't believe Jesus is the son of God, that causes the artical to say "The vast majority" instead of "All"? Wesley 16:22, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I don't know, but I'll bet this: Any Christians who say they don't believe Jesus Christ was the Son of God will probably also agree that nonetheless, "Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." In other words, I don't know of anyone who would come right out and claim that believing Jesus Christ is not the Son of God is their official Christian stance. Tom - Talk 19:29, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The statement above by Nintendomon74 is an example of the No true Scotsman fallacy; please see it from more information. Jayjg 04:37, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

While your comment is true, Jayjg, I made a non-fallacious statement. You may be a true scottsman and not put sugar on your porridge, but my statement refers to religious views. To be a Christian, you have to believe that Jesus is the son of God. Nintendomon74 16:43, Oct 10, 2004 (UTC)

Given the comments, unless someone can provide evidence that a group calling themselves Christian nonetheless deny that Jesus is the Son of God I think that we can alter the statement to "Christians believe that Jesus is the son of God." --G Rutter 12:41, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Evolution vs. Creation

I've deleted this discussion, as it doesn't belong here and has been covered elsewhere. If you really care you can read it here (but please don't edit it otherwise you'll remove any more recent changes). --G Rutter 08:11, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Monotheistic vs Trinitarianism

Note: The "Monotheism" vs "Trinitarian" statements which were in the lead paragraph are contradictory. I realize that not everyone may see it this way. But these points are explained fully and more appropriately below under "Doctrines"

For the sake of editorial accuracy, here is the second sentence which was deleted:

"As a trinitarian religion, it encompasses numerous religious traditions that trace their origins to Jesus."

A careful reading of it reveals that THIS SENTENCE ADDS NO INFORMATION that is not already in the preceding sentence save the use of the term "trinitarian". And so it appears that the only reason it was added was to offset the word "Monotheistic" in the first sentence. (That word is still in the text, but hidden.)

Again, it seems more appropriate for these two ideas to be left to later in the article where THEY CURRENTLY ARE DISCUSSED AND DEVELOPED MORE FULLY UNDER THE "DOCTRINES" SUBHEAD. --DannyMuse 06:42, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)-->

I'm afraid I don't agree. Chrisitianity is a monotheistic, trinitarian religion - and most Christians would agree with that. Yes, it's confusing, but then so is wave-particle duality, so I don't think that's a good reason for deleting the sentences - it is a basic part of the Christian faith, so I think it should be reinstated. How about:

Christianity is a monotheistic, trinitarian religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus in the New Testament (see Doctrines below).

as a revised version of the first sentence?

Also, I note you're new here - welcome! I hope that you enjoy editing. But, for future reference, it's best to suggest contentious changes on the talk pages first and then wait until there's some sort of consensus before making the edits. I've reverted your "contradictory language" edit while we discuss it here. Also, some people think it's rude to write in capitals (it's seen to be the equivalent of shouting). --G Rutter 11:13, 15 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think the first sentence Christianity is a... trinitarian is POV. This statement implicitly insist that non-trinitarian is not Christianity. Besides, Bible (New Testament) doesn't refer to trinity. Obviously, trinity depend on tradition. Rantaro 09:36, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I modified this to say that most Christians are trinitarian and some groups that identify themselves as Christian do not accept that belief. Is that acceptable to all? Mpolo 12:14, Oct 23, 2004 (UTC)

I think your explanation seems to have been different from the first sentence. Rantaro 13:18, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It might be least biased to omit the reference to monotheism altogether. In saying this I am of course implying that "monotheistic" is not core to the definition of Christianity. I think that this is in harmony with the debates that have gone on here about "What is a Christian?"

Christianity is a religion based on the ministry (or life and teachings) of Jesus of Nazareth, who in Christianity is called Christ, or the Jewish Messiah. Christianity began around 34 A.D. as a sect of Judaism. Tom - Talk 14:26, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What is a Christian?

A Christian is a person who believes that Jesus died for us on the cross, taking the full wrath of God on himself, and who has trusted in Jesus for his salvation from hell in the life to come. - 207.27.152.6 [UNSIGNED]

RESPONSE: This is already defined on the Christian page:

a follower of the faith of Christianity
those who followed Jesus as his disciples

Since the first definition is a circular reference to this page, only the second is helpful. It is specific enough to be meaningful, yet broad enough to not be controversial and start more "Edit Wars," (ie. "My doctrine is more Christian than your doctrine!")

The problem with the previous UNSIGNED definition is that it includes some doctrinal beliefs that not all that profess to be Christians would agree with. There is a definite trend here among many contributors to define things in terms that INCLUDE themselves and EXCLUDES those that they don't agree with. Obviously, this is not NPOV. --DannyMuse 20:09, 26 Oct 2004 (UTC)

There's also the matter of using generally understood meanings versus newly invented meanings. Wesley 06:29, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Deleted phrase

I removed this phrase from the section talking about Emperor Constantine and the [[First Council of Nicaea:

  and paved the way for the divine right of the Catholic Church

First, I'm not sure what the heck it's supposed to mean. I'm familiar with the "divine right of kings", but this is clearly something different. The "Catholic Church" is usually understood to mean the Roman Catholic Church, which at this point in time was still several hundred years shy of being independent of the rest of Christianity. Is there a better way to phrase this, or should it just be left out? Wesley 06:29, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think the intent might have been the first meaning listed at the catholic page.- Will2k 17:17, Nov 7, 2004 (UTC)

Meaning it paved the way for the universal or whole church? Sorry to sound dense, but this doesn't make much sense. Could someone spell this out a little more clearly for a simpleton such as myself? Maybe it will lead to something even more helpful and clear for the article. Wesley 04:13, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

That might have been the intent. Still, leave it out, I don't think it's necessary.--Will2k 04:27, Nov 11, 2004 (UTC)

AD vs CE

I see that DannyMuse has changed all of the BC and AD in the article to BCE and CE. Despite what the supporters of the CE would like to belive, BC and AD are the accepted labels in use in the world. The CE article even states that "few know[] what the designation means." Be it Christo-centric or not, they are the most common lablels. Fursther, I think that the fact that this is an article on Christianity, I cant come up with a better place to use the Christian labels? I haven't yet reverted them as that I know that it would start an edit war. What do ya'all think that the appropriate labels should be? Cavebear42 17:29, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Cavebear42. BCE/CE is not well understood (I have never even seen a reference to it in a British English usage guide, for instance), and google searches show its usage to be small in comparison to AD/BC. The terminology AD/BC (I changed it back) is used consistently on this page, in accordance with Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers). DannyMuse should take the commonsense option and use terms that everyone can understand. jguk 19:19, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)