Template talk:Bit and byte prefixes

Latest comment: 2 years ago by Dondervogel 2 in topic Terabyte is binary as well

"Note that the IEC names are defined only up to exbi-, corresponding to the SI prefix exa-. The two SI prefixes zetta- (1021) and yotta- (1024) have no corresponding IEC binary prefixes, though the obvious continuation would be zebi- (Zi = 270 = 10007 × 1.180 591 620 717 411 303 424) and yobi- (Yi = 280 = 10008 × 1.208 925 819 614 629 174 706 176)."

This standard was developed specifically to meet industry’s needs in data processing and data transmission. It eliminates confusion by setting out the prefixes and symbols for the binary, as opposed to decimal, multiples that most often apply in these fields. Zebi and yobi are the latest in this evolution. The term zebi means “two to the power 70”. The term yobi means “two to the power 80”. [1]

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{{Tfd|Quantities of bytes|Data unit templates}}

Terabyte is binary as well

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This link here from the JEDEC clearly mentions tera in the binary context. [2]. I don't see any good reason to revert that binary context since it is referenced. Do you have a good reason Woodstone? Fnagaton 05:48, 11 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

This is because it is obvious the JEDEC show mega binary here "A multiplier equal to 1 048 576 (220 or K2, where K = 1024)" and in the second line of the table "220 mebi Mi mega + binary: (210)2 = 1 048 576 mega: (103)2". Logically then the JEDEC fourth line of the table "240 tebi Ti tera + binary: (210)4 = 1 099 511 627 776 tera: (103)4" references tera as binary. Hence it should be included in the table. Is there any logical refutation of that point? Fnagaton 05:50, 11 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
If you want to disagree that the JEDEC link above does not show "tera" as binary then you'll need to explain how there is any difference between the second and fourth lines of the table. In other words you'll need to explain how while the second line "mega" is obviously binary when the fourth line "tera" is supposedly not obviously binary. Logically I don't think you can. Fnagaton 05:52, 11 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
The JEDEC standard document [3] JESD 100B.01 also clearly defined tera in the binary sense as 1099511627776 bytes. In the "origin" column of the table on page 8 is clearly shows the text "tera + binary: (210)4 = 1 099 511 627 776" bytes. This PDF version clearly separates the binary tera from the other columns. There is no ambiguity that the JEDEC defines tera in the binary sense. Leaving out that fact from the table is illogical and inaccurate. I can supply a screen shot if you like but it's better that you download the document yourself Woodstone so you can see for yourself Fnagaton 06:06, 11 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
This link also correctly shows the context of the same standards document with the bullet point "tera (T): A multiplier equal to 1099511627776". Fnagaton 06:07, 11 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Also another JEDEC standards document JESD84-B42

[4] on page 86 clearly mentions tera in the binary sense "2 Tera bytes (4 294 967 296 x 512B)". Once again showing that JEDEC defines tera as a binary quantity. Once agains showing that it's inaccurate and illogical to not include tera as a sibnary quantity in the JEDEC column. Fnagaton 06:19, 11 July 2015 (UTC)Reply

  • Since nobody is going to talk and respond to the questions above then I'll assume they don't disagree that these prefixes should include the binary use.Fnagaton 12:38, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Let's not go overboard and include the whole list. There definitely is no semiconductor storage of petabytes. JEDEC mentions as prefix only K, M, G and explains the binary values of kibi, mebi, gibi and pebi. Further extension is definitely speculative. We should reach agreement here first before moving on. &minus:Woodstone (talk) 13:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Isn't the quality bar for references in Wikipedia that they are reliable and that they don't always have to be "standards organisations"? Other sources, such as major computer and software companies can be considered. Limiting the table to only three references (SI, IEC and JEDEC) doesn't help much with improving the template when there are other suitable references that can be used. Fnagaton 14:08, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
The column heading is "JEDEC", not "traditional binary prefixes". This column lists prefixes that are defined by JEDEC for use by its member companies for the products covered by its standards. References for the entries in this column are here for kilo, here for mega, and here for giga. We can't say that JEDEC defines tera correspondingly until this page exists, (edit-added:) or until "tera" appears on this page. (end added text) Mere mentions of tera "in a binary sense" within JEDEC's other pages is not at all at the same level as an entry for "tera" in their dictionary of terms, as they have for "kilo," "mega," and "giga." I consider this point definitive. Jeh (talk) 14:38, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I can't believe this discussion is even happening. There is clearly no justification for including tera and higher prefixes under JEDEC because such a prefix is not defined in any formal sense by that organization. And their tone even for (their binary definitions of) kilo, mega and giga is distinctly apologetic, along the lines of "we don't like it any more than you do, but we recognize this how it's been done in the past". For this reason I would go further than that and delete the entire column, as Kbrose proposed. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 17:39, 14 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
It is clear that the column only exists to appease those who want to convey the impression that the binary interpretation still has some sanction by at least one standards body. However, JEDEC makes it clear that it is only including the three units to document historical usage, and that such use is in fact undesirable. After all, JEDEC does not define any units by its own initiative, it follows the larger metrology committees. The column is confusing to the general public who doesn't know what JEDEC is and its role. It opens up more questions than it answers. The mentioning in this context is in fact irrelevant. All relevant WP articles mention the binary interpretation dilemma amply in prose, no need for a cryptic column that most certainly needs extra explanation. Kbrose (talk) 03:02, 16 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
The links I provided clearly show the JEDEC standards document (JESD84-B42) that defines tera as binary. Removing that reliable source is against Wikipedia policy.Fnagaton 12:03, 17 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
All the prefixes have commonly used binary meanings in use in the modern real world. Insisting on having JEDEC in the column name and ignoring the common binary use is also against Wikipedia policy because the table does not reflect real world usage. The simple solution is to change the column header to "binary prefixes" or "common prefixes". Does anyone have any good reason relevant to Wikipedia policies not to change the column header to this? Fnagaton 12:09, 17 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
The most common desktop operating system [5] uses binary prefixes for terabyte etc. [6] Is there a good reason not to include this most common form in the table? If there isn't a good reason then the edits to include binary usage cannot be opposed according to Wikipedia policy. Fnagaton 12:15, 17 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I would remind people that consensus is made of good reasons, not people voting for bad reasons. It's a good idea and a strong reason for Wikipedia to reliably reflect common real world usage by reliable sources. Microsoft use in Windows is such a reliable commonly use source. Fnagaton 12:33, 17 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
There is clearly no consensus here for your position. That people are "voting for bad reasons" is purely your evaluation, and you are hardly an unbiased judge in this case. If the subject column is to "reflect real world usage" by adding e.g. "tera" then the column heading needs to say "traditional binary prefixes" or some such, not "JEDEC", as JEDEC's definition pages do not include anything but kilo, mega, and giga. Furthermore, if that is done, then I will insist on retaining the JEDEC column with only these three prefixes; the "traditional binary prefixes" will have to go in a new column. As I noted above, a mere mention of a usage is not at all the same thing as JEDEC defining the term, so your continued claim that JEDEC "defines" tera is flat-out wrong. And this entire campaign of yours, based as it is on such flimsy arguments as that, smacks of POV-pushing. JEDEC does not have a page for the term "tera" in their dictionary, and that's that. Jeh (talk) 15:42, 17 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I've said this before but apparently I need to repeat myself. The JEDEC sources mostly define tera as 1000^4, so the rare odd one using 1024^4 proves nothing. There is no justification in adding tera to the 'JEDEC' column. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 16:16, 17 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
JEDEC does not even claim a formal definition of the units. They clearly state that the binary interpretations are only listed to reflect historical usage. They also clearly state the confusion this has created and that this should be avoided. They sanction the implementation of IEC units to do so. To claim otherwise is simply intellectual dishonesty/fraud. I maintain that the column of this table should simply be deleted to simply show the two sets of units in existence, free of controversy. The arguments of common, historical, present usage and interpretations should happen in prose in articles where it can be presented in historically correct manner and appropriate context, but not in an isolated table column that opens more questions than it answers for the vast majority of readers. Kbrose (talk) 16:26, 17 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
The JEDEC links above do contain formal definitions of kilo, mega, giga and tera with binary quantities. Denying facts that are obvious and well documented is not good consensus. The JEDEC continues to use these in the binary sense in recent standards documents so they have not been deprecated at all. Even if they had been formally deprecated by the JEDEC (which you have zero proof of by the way) it doesn't change the fact that most sources still use them and they should be included in the table. Saying the JEDEC does not formally define them is an egregious mistake. Wikipedia editing rules means they should all be included including tera. I will edit the table to say "traditional binary prefixes" unless someone has a substantive objection to that? Glider87 (talk) 14:15, 20 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
First, your claim about JEDEC definitions is wrong. Since you apparently missed it, I will repeat what I wrote above, with a couple of slight stylistic mods:
The column heading is "JEDEC", not "traditional binary prefixes". This column lists prefixes that are defined by JEDEC for use by its member companies for the products covered by its standards. References for the entries in this column are here for kilo, here for mega, and here for giga. We can't say that JEDEC defines tera correspondingly until this page exists. Mere mentions of tera "in a binary sense" within JEDEC's other pages are not at all at the same level as a dedicated page for "tera" in their dictionary of terms, as they have for "kilo," "mega," and "giga." I consider this point definitive.
Be sure to click on the links - they're important. Especially the one that's a dead link because JEDEC has not formally defined tera.
Second, I object to the term "traditional binary prefixes". "Metric" is a reference to (and is linked to) SI and the corresponding international standards bodies that support it. So is IEC. JEDEC is merely an association of manufacturers (IEC has a much broader scope) but, still, is an internationally recognized organization. "Traditional binary prefixes" is not analagous to SI, IEC, or JEDEC and so does not belong in the same table with them. Moreover, the point that no internationally recognized standards body other than JEDEC has officially recognized the "traditional binary prefixes" other than kilo, mega, and giga, and even JEDEC says that their use promotes confusion, is extremely relevant; this point would be obscured if we included these non-standardized usages.
Third, others have already posted substantive objections to renaming the column... so if we can take you at your word, I guess you'll not be doing that. Jeh (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
As Fnagaton reached super-critical levels of 3RR, Glider87 appears from a several-year hiatus to continue the very same argument in identical style. When is someone, an Administrator, going to end this farce and checkuser these types along with their originator. Kbrose (talk) 18:40, 20 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Yes, this is a return to old patterns. Glider87 is just another sock from the same stable as David thingy Hamilton. There is nothing to be gained from engaging with him. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 21:58, 20 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
  • Dondervogel's recent edits to MOSNUM alerted me to his continued pattern of pointy edits. JEDEC has formally defined tera as binary by including it in standards documents the links above include those references. There are no substantive reasons against putting "traditional binary prefixes" in the table because "I don't like it" is not a substantive reason. So there is nothing stopping me from editing the table. Adding or changing the JEDEC column to include commonly used binary prefixes improves the table for the articles referencing the table.Glider87 (talk) 13:12, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
This image from the JEDEC document JES100B shows binary tera being defined. [7]Glider87 (talk) 13:54, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Your continued attempt to waste everyone's time is noted, but this is not a successful strategy to get your weird view points into WP, especially not while transmorphing between the types of your army of sockpuppets.
Indeed the line quoted specifies the binary multiple tebi as originating from tera+binary, having the value 240, and the line correctly shows tera as being 1012.
For the record lets see just what JEDEC does state in its dictionary of terms (less formatting and markup).
mega (M) (as a prefix to units of semiconductor storage capacity)
A multiplier equal to 1 048 576 (220 or K2, where K = 1024).

NOTE 1 Contrast with the SI prefix mega (M) equal to 106, as in a 1‑Mb/s data transfer rate, which is equal to 1 000 000 bits per second.

NOTE 2 The definitions of kilo, giga, and mega based on powers of two are included only to reflect common usage. IEEE/ASTM SI 10‑1997 states "This practice frequently leads to confusion and is deprecated." Further confusion results from the popular use of a "megabyte" consisting of 1 024 000 bytes to define the capacity of the familiar "1.44‑MB" diskette. An alternative system is found in Amendment 2 to IEC 60027‑2: Letter symbols to be used in electrical technology - Part 2:

Prefixes for binary multipliers
____________________________________________________________________
Factor Name Symbol Origin Derivation
210 kibi Ki kilo + binary: (210)1 = 1 024 kilo: (103)1
220 mebi Mi mega + binary: (210)2 = 1 048 576 mega: (103)2
230 gibi Gi giga + binary: (210)3 = 1 073 741 824 giga: (103)3
240 tebi Ti tera + binary: (210)4 = 1 099 511 627 776 tera: (103)4

IEC suggests that, in English, the first syllable of the name of the binary-multiplier prefix should be pronounced in the same way as the first syllable of the name of the corresponding SI prefix and that the second syllable should be pronounced as "bee".

References:
JESD21-C#, 1/97
JESD100-B, 12/99
The entry is referred to from the other entries for kilo and giga, so applies to all of them. First of all, let's recognize that the entry explicitly states in the title line that the term is only valid for "semiconductor storage capacity", not for any general use. Therefore the table column in the WP template should include that qualification as well, so readers aren't deceived with the impression of general applicability.
Furthermore, the dictionary entry overwhelmingly states the industry consensus that these units are ambiguous and the binary interpretation should be avoided. It notes that they "are included only to reflect common usage". If JEDEC preferred or recommended this practice, they would have stated so in an equally unambiguous manner.
How much clearer can it be?
The current table column in the WP template does not adequately reflect the true meaning and intent of the JEDEC dictionary, and it doesn't seem practical to add a footer to the table to explain the reason for the inclusion of the column. I am therefore, once again, proposing the deletion of the column, so that it simply states the two existing definitions of units and leave any other interpretations and contradictions to the prose of each article in which the table is used. Kbrose (talk) 14:43, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I'm not a sockpuppet and please stop your personal attacks. You are misreading what the JEDEC says because it has not deprecated terabyte binary use. In JESD84-B42 you will see terabyte used with binary quantities. This standards document was published after JESD100-B. It therefore clearly shows the JEDEC have not deprecated terabyte used with binary quantities. It is a fact supported by many reliable sources that kilobyte and all the rest are used with binary quantities. Removing the binary use column is wrong because it harms the accuracy of articles. The binary column needs to reflect reliable sources and that means expanding the binary column to include kilo etc. The common use of binary kilo etc is far too common to relegate it to the articles. The table should reflect common use first and foremost because that neutral thing to do. It is against WP:NPOV to try to advance an idea that is contrary to the found in reliable sources. Glider87 (talk) 22:33, 21 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I do not see any "substantive objections to renaming the column" and including a full table of binary prefixes to reflect common use. Does anyone have any counter argument that is neutral and reliably sourced? Fnagaton 15:04, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
That you claim not to see it doesn't mean it isn't there. You keep ignoring the fact that for each term JEDEC defines, they have a separate page in their "definitions" document for that term. They don't have one for "tera". When they do, we can put "tera" in the JEDEC column. You have never answered this on-point; you simply continue to point to mere mentions of tera elsewhere in their documents. It has been pointed out repeatedly that these are not on the same footing with their formal definitions. You haven't answered that point either; you simply ignore it. That doesn't work for your side.
I would have no objection to adding a fourth column labeled something like "customary usage". That column head could be WL'd to the section in Binary prefix that describes those prefixes. Alternately, we could have that column, and a "JEDEC" column to its right with a notation of which of those appeared among JEDEC's official definitions (which would not include tera). Jeh (talk) 17:47, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
I am against an additional column. That would be too much clutter and only add to the confusion. Clearly "tera" in binary sense is not defined by JEDEC, but still used occasionally. Why not add it in that column with a footnote stating "used, but not formally defined". −Woodstone (talk) 19:32, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Suppose the existing entries in the JEDEC column were referenced to the respective pages in the JEDEC definitions document? Then there would be no question that tera does not belong there, as there is no corresponding page. Then let's change the title bar to "Standards for bit and byte prefixes". Since there is no widely recognized organization that has formally defined the "customary binary prefixes" they would then not belong here at all.
A less radical solution would be to add the additional column but then add a grouping. The existing columns would be grouped under "formal standards", and the column that includes tera=1024^4, etc., would be by itself, labeled "informal usage". Jeh (talk) 20:31, 23 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
What would be the reliable source to support the "informal usage" column? I suppose we could go back to FOLDOC or similar, but I think FOLDOC was dropped from the table because it is not subject to a formal review process. Is there an alternative source? 23:10, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
If the column heading is something like "informal usage" then we don't need what would be considered RSs for definitions. All we need are a few examples of usage, such as are already in the Binary prefix article. We can copy them from there. Jeh (talk) 02:37, 24 July 2015 (UTC) Jeh (talk) 02:54, 24 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Meanwhile, let me state my position re. JEDEC's definitions as clearly as possible: Yes, JEDEC refers to the binary definition of "tera". But JEDEC flatly does not include "tera" as a term defined in their "dictionary of terms". Until "tera" appears on this page (likely just before "terminal (1) (of a semiconductor device)"), we can't say that JEDEC has formally adopted and endorsed the binary meaning of "tera", as they have with "kilo", "mega", and "giga". Had they done so, "tera" would have its own page. It does not. Once again I will point out that Fnagaton and Glider have never even attempted to counter this point; they just continue to cite the mentions of tera as if they were on an equal footing with JEDEC's formal definitions of terms.
btw, another fix I would support would be to rename the JEDEC column to "customary binary prefixes" and have some sort of notation like "(JEDEC)" after the three that JEDEC defines. The word JEDEC could call up a footnore and/or be referenced to the corresponding definition pages linked above. Jeh (talk) 02:54, 24 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Without a reliable source, what is the difference between an informally defined (binary) yottabyte and an informally defined brontobyte or geopbyte? Dondervogel 2 (talk) 07:49, 24 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
The JEDEC and IEC say terabyte, kilobyte etc as binary are to reflect "common usage", see above links. To try to call it "informal usage" would not be neutral and would not reflect the reliable sources that call it "common usage". The picture I linked from the JEDEC document clearly shows "tera" as a binary quantity. That is a reliable source for the usage and also a reliable source for the term "common use" for the extra column. The other JEDEC document uses terabyte with a binary quantity. Another reliable source. Many links to books and Microsoft websites also show all the prefixes defined with binary quantities, also reliable sources. Wikipedia and this table should reflect that common use. Glider87 (talk) 13:44, 24 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Tera and the larger traditional binary prefixes are not defined by any recognized standards body, and this table should reflect that fact. Jeh (talk) 18:42, 26 July 2015 (UTC)Reply
Glider87, youe say "The JEDEC and IEC say terabyte, kilobyte etc as binary are ...". Which link give 'tera', especially by JEDEC? Or are you inventing things? 192.12.181.166 (talk) 13:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)Reply
You can see it in this PDF for JESD84-B42 (archive link). Search for "tera". You may also want to WP:AGF and try reading the thread, the linked file was above. —Locke Coletc 17:55, 27 September 2022 (UTC)Reply
This is not the best place for this discussion. The above thread was dominated by disruptive editors and their socks (now banned) and had been dead for 7 years before it was restarted by a single purpose IP. See 'Quantities of bits' talk page. Dondervogel 2 (talk) 11:01, 18 December 2022 (UTC)Reply

New prefixes

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Editors might like to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics#Add ronna- and quetta- to units articles?. NebY (talk) 23:21, 18 November 2022 (UTC)Reply