Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Alf Milner

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Ultimately, the argument to delete is significantly more convincing, owing to the complete lack of sources that establish this individual's notability. While we do need to keep in mind that available sources might be harder to find for someone that played 80 years ago, it's difficult to find a justification to keep the article at AfD when not even a single source with significant coverage can be provided. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 05:22, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alf Milner

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Not notable; fails WP:GNG/WP:SPORTBASIC. Sources 1 and 2 are trivial database entries and thus do not contribute to establishing notability, and source 3 only mentions Milner in passing (not WP:SIGCOV). Actualcpscm (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Sportspeople, Football, and England. Actualcpscm (talk) 17:18, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:32, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per COMMONSENSE/IAR - 35 appearances in English's professional football league 80 years ago? There will be plenty of offline coverage out there. Giant Snowman 18:43, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that's necessarily true. Not all players, even at the professional level, are covered in-depth by reliable sources, especially if they played for a handful of seasons. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:46, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep I don't see much in an initial search, but I feel there are sources between primary and secondary, enough to pass WP:BASIC from [1], [2], [3], and I recon a newspaper archive search will reveal enough on his time at Darlington FC to warrant an article. Regards. Govvy (talk) 21:12, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Primary sources do not ever contribute to notability... JoelleJay (talk) 23:10, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@JoelleJay: Primary sources can be used to support content in articles! Which is clearly part of WP:BASIC which is part of my argument to keep. So I don't know why you feel you have to tell me about notability! Govvy (talk) 07:40, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But primary sources have zero bearing on a discussion about notability (including BASIC) and should never factor into anyone's notability determinations. Being able to use primary sources is not a factor in meeting in BASIC, it's only a reminder that they can still be used even if they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject. JoelleJay (talk) 16:13, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep I can't do a historical source search at the moment, but the Northern Echo article talks about the goal he scored to win an FA Cup game in front of 12,000 people. Not all sports stubs need to be purged. SportingFlyer T·C 23:39, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per above. Thanks, Das osmnezz (talk) 00:12, 23 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Obviously fails WP:GNG as it stands. No significant coverage has been presented here, nore could I find any during a search. The little information we have on the subject does not indicate that he gained any notability. Playing professional football, even in England, is far from a great indicator of notability. This was not a national team player or a player who had a career in the top-tier. On the contrary, he seems to have had a short stint in the lower leagues. Using WP:COMMONSENSE, there is no way to assert that he is notable based on these facts Alvaldi (talk) 10:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Alvaldi: The league he played in wasn't the top tier of English football? Then what was at the time? BeanieFan11 (talk) 14:47, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  - @BeanieFan11: - the top tier of English football at the time he played was the Football League First Division. Milner played in the Football League Third Division South (for Aldershot) and Football League Third Division North (for Darlington), the two parallel halves of the third tier of English football -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:54, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  @BeanieFan11 Football League First Division was the first tier in England from 1888 until 2004, but Darlington F.C has never played higher than the Football League Second Division and Aldershot F.C. seems to have been in the Football League Third Division South during Milner's stint there if I'm understanding this correctly. Alvaldi (talk) 15:07, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Alvaldi: - a minor correction, the First Division was only the top tier until 1992, when the Premier League was created, but you are correct in everything else you say. Both clubs were in the third tier when he played for them -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude Thanks, even though I knew it I still blindly copied it from the League's article :) Alvaldi (talk) 15:27, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. No SIGCOV sources have been uncovered, as is required for NSPORT. "Keep" reasoning based on playing any level of professional football has been rejected by wide consensus both as a direct notability criterion and as a predictor of GNG, and so should be disregarded. JoelleJay (talk) 19:14, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Article fails WP:GNG as no SIGCOV has been presented here and I couldn't find anything in my BEFORE search. Jogurney (talk) 14:41, 29 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.