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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Angos (constructed language)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. after userfying to User:Razlem/Angos. This is not a long-term solution: I draw the article author's attention to WP:FAKEARTICLE: "Userspace is not a free web host and should not be used to indefinitely host pages that look like articles, old revisions, or deleted content, or your preferred version of disputed content." JohnCD (talk) 19:30, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Angos (constructed language)

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Angos (constructed language) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Zero notability Angos falls afoul of WP:N. In the article's talk page the language's lack of notability is explored in depth. Out of the seven total references (one appears in both References and External links), two are from the language's official website, one is a YouTube video made by User:Razlem, one is a personal website, one is a private wiki, one is a link to Reddit, and one is an article from the Journal of Universal Language. It is my understanding that Reddit is essentially a large forum, and any user can create a group there, so the presence of one for Angos is no indication of notability, and it appears that Razlem wrote more than half of the posts there in any case. As the the journal article, it turns out that the journal is published by Sejong University, which created Unish, and the the journal itself appears to be a vehicle for the promotion of that language. The article itself is a list of conlangs which have words of Uralic origin, and the citation for the Angos material is "personal communication". Hermione is a dude (talk) 08:52, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Language-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 17:11, 5 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The lack of notability is discussed in depth until the publication in the Journal of Universal Language.
The main reference is a complete grammar, published by the author of the language, which other notable constructed language pages have (Ro, Sona, Unish, Idiom Neutral). What those pages lack, however, is a reliable, secondary source that accords with Wikipedia's standards, which Angos does have.
The reddit link is provided for additional information about the language and its community, not as a reference for the article. Of the 17 reddit posts on /r/angos, 9 were submitted by razlem (who, in fact, did not create the subreddit), 8 were submitted by others.
The claim that the Journal of Universal Language is a vehicle for the promotion of Unish is completely unfounded.
What makes personal communication an invalid method of gathering information?
Razlem (talk) 00:58, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, just because no one replied to your update on the talk page does not mean that there is consensus about the article's notability. Given the three month gap between that update and the next youngest, it seems more likely that no one was paying attention to the article anymore. Your comment about Ro, Sona, etc is an example of WP:OSE; if you find those articles to be a greater priority than Angos then you are free to nominate them. It's interesting that you list Unish as an article with no proof of notability, since all of its citations are from the Journal of Universal Language. Why is that not proof of notability for Unish when it apparently is for Angos, unless you actually do believe it exists for the promotion of Unish? Edit: the personal communication source with the creator of the language makes the article even more problematic because it suggests that there is no other source save for the author. In any case I believe that article is a good candidate for deletion, too, although the circumstances for Ro and the others are different and I do not believe deletion would be proper for them. Finally, regarding the Reddit page, nine is indeed greater than eight, and you said on the talk page that the Reddit page was there to establish notability. Hermione is a dude (talk) 01:52, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It was my understanding that when a secondary source was provided, the language would become "notable". I find it hard to believe that the page was not visited by anyone else involved on the talk page for 3 months, given the extent of the discussion. I find WP:OSE to be a strange policy for Wikipedia; doesn't it conflict with WP:NOT? The Unish references are unreliable because they were published by Sejong University, the developer, making the journal a primary source in this case (if I'm not mistaken). But the journal's reliability applies only for Unish. Any other languages detailed in the journal makes it a secondary source for those languages (and seeing as none of the 15 articles in the past 1.5 years have been about Unish, you would be incorrect to assume that it exists for the language's promotion). Personal communication was not the only source. Listed in the article's reference section, page 142, is a link to the wiki. Then I can dissect the Reddit posts. Of the 9 posts made by razlem on /r/angos, 5 were text posts, 4 were links to Angos material. Of the others', 5 were links to Angos material, 3 were text posts. More than half of the Angos material was submitted to the subreddit by users other than razlem. During the discussion I had with IJzeren Jan about using Reddit and Facebook as a reference, I assumed I could use the readership as proof that people that I was not affiliated with were using the language and disseminating material with others. IJzeren Jan then showed me why these could not be used as sources of notability (which I still do not quite understand), and I ceded the argument. Razlem (talk) 03:02, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I forgot to point out that WP:OSE is not a policy. Rather, it is partly a rebuttal of the fallacious argument that an article's deletion is somehow unfair or improper because of the presence of some other articles on the site. You haven't violated any rules by making that argument, but it's unlikely to persuade anyone. You make an interesting point about the Journal of Universal Language, and I admit to not having read many papers there. My suspicion was triggered by its not being cited or mentioned anywhere except here, including journal ranking sites and JSTOR. Also, you say that the paper also cites the wiki, but the wiki is listed as the work of Angos' creator. Furthermore, the wiki's member list lists you as "founder and creator", and you seem to be responsible for almost every edit there. Are you the creator of Angos? That is definitely something that should be disclosed. Hermione is a dude (talk) 13:28, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
How else is one supposed to get accurate information about a language? If you wanted to know more about a language, you would almost always choose discussion with the creator over a secondary/internet source. I am the creator of Angos, and that has little to do with this language's notability. All the information in Angos (constructed language) is presented clearly and objectively, and referenced where appropriate. Like I said in my previous response, when I had started writing the wikipedia article on Angos, I had been assuming I could use the online readership as evidence of notability. I was informed I could not, and the article was proposed for deletion. But now, the article has a secondary source by a reputable author unaffiliated with the creator or the language itself. Razlem (talk) 16:34, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that you are the only source of almost all information about Angos; WP:N states: "Material available from sources that are self-published, or primary sources, or biased because of a conflict of interest can play a role in writing an article, but it must be possible to source the majority of information to independent, third-party sources." That clearly isn't the case here, as the relevant part of article you cite is mostly a quote of your wiki and a list of words you emailed to the author. The coverage of Angos here is trivial. Hermione is a dude (talk) 06:27, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm also a little bothered by your not disclosing your being the creator of Angos earlier. You aren't always required to tell people that you are intimately connected to an article that you're editing, but you have written most of the material on the page and cite yourself extensively, meaning that you may be falling afoul of WP:SELFCITE.Hermione is a dude (talk) 06:48, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The wiki is referenced by the journal article, meaning it was reliable enough to the author to be used for a linguistic study. The grammar is a published document available to the public ___domain (meaning everything in the article can be checked for accuracy by anyone). There should be no problem with me writing the article (though I thought it was fairly obvious I was the creator); everything is objectively written and referenced. And I have not taken control of the article; anyone can add information or criticism to the page so long as it's referenced. I would also like to request that Ro, Sona, Kēlen, Láadan, Tsolyáni, Barsoomian, Teonaht, and Unish be grouped with Angos in the deletion process, for reasons of sourcing and notability outlined in this discussion. I feel like Angos has received unequal treatment in this manner. Razlem (talk) 16:34, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Posting your own material on Scribd does not make it published. If you think those other articles merit deletion then you are free to nominate them yourself - I definitely agree that some should go! This page isn't about those other languages, though, and it's rare for multiple articles to be "bundled" (I've only seen it happen once). Also, please be aware that no one is picking on Angos, it has been nominated for deletion because I don't believe it meets the criteria for inclusion on Wikipedia. Hermione is a dude (talk) 20:49, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Those conlangs have few to no secondary sources, yet they have been on Wikipedia for years. Angos has one notable, reliable secondary source added several months ago and it's branded for deletion. This article has received more critical attention in the last half year than some of these pages have for almost a decade (Láadan). From my point of view, it has been unfairly scrutinized. Since it is unlikely that the article will be up much longer, I'm going ahead and nominating the above pages for deletion, citing the deletion of this article as precedence. Razlem (talk) 21:26, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Your tone suggests that you think you're, I don't know, taking revenge on Wikipedia. You should know that if those articles are nominated for deletion it is unlikely that they'll be rushed through the process. This isn't a court, precedence doesn't matter. Again, I refer you to WP:OSE, as you are making the argument in the negative now.Hermione is a dude (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, it isn't true that the article has been subjected to excessive scrutiny. The talk page for Angos is mostly people trying to explain Wikipedia policy to you and show why your citations are not usable.Hermione is a dude (talk) 22:28, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I understand that. What I don't understand is why this has not also happened for the pages listed above. I have no interest in seeking "revenge on Wikipedia". What irks me is that pages in the exact state (and/or worse) as Angos have been virtually untouched for years. I believe the argument of OSE is valid in this case. I'm not saying that every conlang should have its own page, but I have shown the journal article to be a reliable source, which is more than some other conlang articles have. This is a surmountable problem, and since the information on the page is not harming anyone, verifiable, but not yet notable, I move to keep the page. The language community isn't dead, and notable sources may come up in the future. (also there's a Japanese version of the article???). Razlem (talk) 23:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, I don't have any obligation to nominate every bad article for deletion. What dragged me out of lurkerdom here was a combination of things, not just the clear lack of notability. I see no indication that Angos will ever reach the low bar that's been established for that, and even if it were, Wikipedia is not a crystal ball, and the article's harmlessness is not a valid reason for keeping it. Hermione is a dude (talk) 00:05, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Also, that journal article is not significant coverage. It is slightly more than an admission of the fact that Angos exists. Hermione is a dude (talk) 00:09, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a crystal ball does not apply here. None of the information put forth in the article requires a future event to verify. It's already all verifiable. And this factors into WP:NOHARM: "As for articles about subjects that do not hold to our basic tenets (verifiability, notability, and using reliable sources), keeping them actually can do more harm than one realizes – it sets a precedent that dictates that literally anything can go here. (See below for that.)" Angos has verifiability and a reliable source down, all it needs is notability. The conlangs I've noted above? Some of them are verifiable at least. But some don't have any sources at all! Also, the article is significant coverage. It is more than a trivial mention or an admission of existence. It was one of a number of languages focused on by the author. In the article it mentions the author and gives a brief introduction, in addition to the data from the linguistic survey. Razlem (talk) 00:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but can you please stop complaining about other articles? If you think they're so much worse than Angos and need immediate attention, go ahead and nominate them so they can be discussed on the appropriate page. Insisting that a two paragraph summary is significant coverage does not make it true, by the way. Hermione is a dude (talk) 00:58, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well this is an interesting twist... What if I've found another secondary source, but it's in Japanese? Razlem (talk) 23:25, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That article looks like someone's personal site and wouldn't be a usable source or link. I don't mean to disparage other Wikipedias' editors, but many of them aren't as well cared for as the English Wikipedia. I believe there is a policy somewhere relating to this. Hermione is a dude (talk) 00:05, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You may be right, but this shows that there may be other reliable secondary sources out there. Razlem (talk) 00:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • FWIW, this is not an analysis or description of the language; it is a translation of content from angoslanguage.wikispaces. Translation of the first sentence: "Angos language (Angos means 'man-made language' with 'language' added to the [Japanese] name) is a universal constructed language begun in 2011, namely the type with vocabulary assembled from world languages." (Compare this from angoslanguage: "Angos is a constructed universal language created in 2011. It is an a posteriori language, meaning the majority of the vocabulary is borrowed from existing languages.") Cnilep (talk) 01:23, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Given its editorial board (which includes Jared Diamond, UCLA), I assert that the publication is both reliable and notable. Razlem (talk) 21:26, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Angr is questioning your reliability. Also, it doesn't really matter if Jared Diamond is connected to this journal, the article would fail to establish notability even if Diamond had written it himself!Hermione is a dude (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My mistake, I thought Angr was referring to the reliability of the journal. Razlem (talk) 23:17, 7 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, that the author of the article is also the author of the language, that's something I have never actually doubted at all. But I can see no harm in that either. If you look at, for example, the editing history of Lingua Franca Nova, you'll notice the same thing. As long as the article is written in a factual, neutral way, the question who wrote it shouldn't matter at all.

I have already exposed my views on the talk page. What originally raised my suspicion was the fact that a language that had been started only a year earlier claimed to have a certain number of fluent speakers. I know by experience that creating a language complete enough to be fully functional and doing that job decently is virtually impossible in one year's time, but creating a language ánd gathering a group of people ánd them becoming proficient in it, that's something I really refuse to believe. That's why I asked a few questions and raised various issues regarding notability and verifiability. It must be acknowledged that Razlem has been very cooperative and done his best to address these issues.

Let me note that Alan Libert – university professor in (IIRC) Manchester, author of several books about constructed languages – is definitely an authority in the field, and therefore his article surely counts as a reputable and reliable third-party source. There's little point in denying that. As for the "Journal of Universal Language", well, I am not familiar with myself, but if it's being published by a university, I can see no reason to discard it. In my view, the article undoubtedly adds up to notability. The question is only if one source with non-trivial coverage (albeit not entirely non-non-trivial either) is really enough. And this, I'm afraid, is the biggest problem here. One of the few criteria that seem to be generally accepted when it comes to constructed languages, is that two reliable third-party sources with non-trivial coverage of the subject are the absolute minimum. The Libert article is a good source, but not enough to tipple the balance. Besides, it provides very little actual information about Angos itself and only lists a few Uralic words. References to the article were added to bits of text that were already here before the article was written.

All the rest is either original research or supported by primary sources only. And that is a bad thing. Just imagine what would happen if the author of the language forgets to pay his bill and suddenly the whole website is gone? Or - and this happens more often - after a few years gives up on the project and starts something new? Then Wikipedia is stuck with an article nobody cares for, with hardly any proof at all that its subject has even ever existed. That's why information on Wikipedia should be either unquestionable or verifiable, also on the longer term. Sure, we have to be realistic, and writing an article about a constructed language without resorting to primary sources at all is hard. But at least the basic framework should be based on reliable sources, and primary sources should only be used for filling the gaps (f.ex. a description of the grammar). Otherwise, what you'll get is the strange situation that the only sources of information are: a) a website, b) a WP article that merely duplicates information from that website, and c) the author of both – in other words, all information goes back to one person only, one who has an obvious conflict of interest to that. In such a situation it may happen that external sources start copying this information without actually verifying it, and subsequently these sources are used as proof that it is true. In other words, the article itself becomes the source of all notability AND the source of all evidence that the information contained in it is correct. Obviously a situation we want to avoid.

Now, I have all reason to believe that Ben Wood is a friendly and honest person, and I am perfectly willing to take his word for anything he writes. He has done an amazing piece of work and I definitely wish him success. It's not like I really WANT this very nicely written article deleted either. But I also believe that this article in its current form has no chance for survival, because notability is still below the point of reasonable doubt AND verifiability is a major issue. My suggestion would be: don't delete this page, but turn it into a subpage of Razlem's user page (f.ex. User:Razlem/Angos), removing the categories of course. Let it hang in there for a while, and once more sources turn up, then I think it could be adapted and placed back. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:05, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding OSE: the languages mentioned here (Sona, Ro, Láadan etc.) all have a long history. Remember, if an article does not provide sources, that does not mean they don't exist. Verifiability does not necessarily mean that everything must be offered on a plate. There's plenty of literature where these languages are discussed.

I also disagree with the "no harm" argument. One example is Slovio. When this article first appeared, the only source was the website of the language, which was full of exorbitant claims and outright lies about its successes. Shortly afterwards a few articles in the press appeared, usually multiplying this false information, Wikipedia articles were translated into other language editions, and all this unverified info started spreading like a virus. Even today there are still articles in 31 language editions (much more than there have been users, ever), and even now that the language is dead, it keeps appearing in publications as if it were something new and unique. In the meantime there have been enough publications about the subject to make its notability unquestionable, even though the whole thing was based on lies. And this is precisely the sort of thing that Wikipedia should NOT be doing. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 01:49, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Hermione is a dude (talk) 22:46, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've relisted the debate because so few people have commented, and of those who have only one has actually done the bold thing. I have a feeling that all the stuff that's been written already might be scaring some editors, or they may assume that there has already been significant input from the community. For the skimmers: so far only five people have commented here, including myself and the creator of the article in question. Hermione is a dude (talk) 23:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. A Google search for ("angos" language) yielded nothing that would tend to confer notability. I ran a JSTOR search for (angos language), and none of the titles that I found suggested that they might cover Angos-the-language in any depth; unfortunately, I don't have access to the articles, but I saw nothing that I'd have been inclined to investigate if I had.
The Libert article in Journal of Universal Language consists of three paragraphs (one almost entirely a quote from Angos designer Benjamin Wood) and two short tables; it only addresses one small aspect of Angos, viz., that it contains some words with Uralic roots, in the course of a survey of many artificial languages. This does not meet the standard of "significant coverage" at WP:GNG.
If Angos acquires a community of speakers or body of literature that draws in-depth coverage in the popular or academic media, a WP article will be justified. For now, it's WP:TOOSOON. Ammodramus (talk) 23:37, 8 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Absolutely, I wasn't aware this was an option until you had brought it up. Razlem (talk) 15:34, 10 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It looks more official. :P Hermione is a dude (talk) 21:01, 12 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Wouldn't "Userfy" be the appropriate word to use when recommending a move to the creator's user page? Ammodramus (talk) 00:14, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Probably, I'm not really familiar with Wikipedia jargon. In any case, would the nominator have a problem with it if somebody moved both the article and the corresponding talk page to Razlem's user space? That way we preserve the page history and the discussion (which contains quite a lot of stuff I've written myself). The resulting direct should of course be deleted, and the categories should be removed. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 18:13, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with that. A user space is a private spot for experimentation and preservation, so it would be appropriate, although the text was already copied to Frath so there wouldn't be any loss if it were deleted. My concern isn't that Angos stuff is being hosted on Wikipedia, but that this article's purpose is to establish Angos' notability rather than educate people about something that is already notable. Hermione is a dude (talk) 20:31, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! I've taken the liberty to make the move myself. The page Angos (constructed language) can safely be deleted now. —IJzeren Jan Uszkiełtu? 22:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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