- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was merged. Johnleemk | Talk 13:24, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
AfDs for this article:
- BTHS Math_Team (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
The article is about a high school math team. Only notability is placing high in a New York City interscholastic league. Only sources are from the school's website and the league's website. Clamster 02:27, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- More sources if that pleases you, my friend
- national contest, not just in the city
- http://www.unl.edu/amc/e-exams/e6-amc12/e6-1-12archive/2007-12a/07-4_01-1012SchMR.shtml
- Please look at "From the Indicator"
- http://65.104.11.121/Math1966.html
- It's from another school
- It is hard to explain to outsider(either math nor science) the notability of the top math teams in the nation.
- Online sources are not abundant.
- Offline sources--need time--not a few hours to fight for the case.
- This topic SHOULD NOT be discriminated due to the low number of overall online secondary sources.
- This is not the same as some small companies putting their insignificant title in wiki. You can find comparision in businesses :reports but no one has ever compared math teams all over the nation. The only reliable way is to look at the results from some :nation-wide contest like American Mathematics Competition.
- Clamster5, under what circumstances do you think that a math team is remarkable, significant?
- Um, just so you know, AFDs last 5 days, which is over 100 hours, and the standards for notability can be found at WP:N and WP:ORG. If there are indeed more offline sources, feel free to produce such as you can find. FrozenPurpleCube 03:13, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete First, the editor is a clear conflict of interest concern. See WP:COI Second, it's a high school team. If it merits mention, that would be on the High School's own page. There may be enough sources to cover that, but I just don't see it meeting the standards of WP:ORG very well. Especially since it's unlikely that the article will be truly historical. There's enough problems with covering high schools. Covering their various academic and athletic teams? I don't see that working out too well. FrozenPurpleCube 03:12, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank You for the COL Note
- Read the article carefully and it is assured that the article is unbiased.
- The idea of "that would be on the High School's own page" has never been disregarded.
- However, AfD is the wrong tag for that. It should be a {merge} tag instead.
- Also, notability tag itself is not adequate for a topic like this. {expert-subject} should be used.
- No one is blamed for not understanding the statistics behind the records.
- Please be more specific about "it's unlikely that the article will be truly historical." Which part is not true?
- "If the article is about a specialized field, use the {expert-subject} tag with a specific WikiProject to attract editors knowledgeable about that field, who may have access to reliable sources not available online."--from Wikipedia:Notability
- "Online sources are not abundant"--as expressed above
- Bthsmathteam 03:36, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, first I'm going to request you stop using section headers in the discussion here. They mess up the formatting of this page and make it hard to read and reply to you. Please use : or * instead of ===, it will look a lot better. And while your edits may be neutral, conflict of interest concerns are quite valid. There have been a lot of problems with that sort of thing before, so the best thing to do is to not even come close to breaching it. If you want to place the information on the High school's article, that's a valid argument to make in AFD, but I can understand how the original nominator would prefer AFD instead. There's a lot more eyes here. And expert? For a High School math team? I'm sorry, but this is not something that I would expect to be obscure or difficult to fathom. If it's indeed notable, it should be covered in readily available sources. As for what I meant about "truly historical" what I'm saying is that it's unlikely that this article will cover the history of the team in any systematic way. Right now, for example, it focuses on a couple of years. That's not convincing of the comprehensiveness of the coverage. Instead, it feels like some member of the team has decided to discuss their immediate experiences with it. That's not a good thing. It's not a bad thing like vandalism, but it's less than ideal. FrozenPurpleCube 04:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- BTW, I'm concerned about your username, since it is associated with a particular group. That may be a violation of existing policies, so I'm going to ask an admin to look at it. FrozenPurpleCube 04:03, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Good Comments. Your help is indeed appreciated. The username part is a good insight. What needs to be done is to improved its the historical content, which is not impossible. More info can be added later but there is no need to delete the article before people, such as the high school students from decades ago, can provide the proper info. Bthsmathteam 04:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Um, having the high school students from years ago providing the "proper" info would actually be a problem in itself, as that be a primary, not a secondary source, and as such, not appropriate for Wikipedia unless published in a reliable form. And while I suppose that lack of historical coverage might not be a reason to delete, the lack of significant third-party sources right now is a valid concern. FrozenPurpleCube 04:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I meant that they know where to find the old articles and prints. Bthsmathteam 05:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Ok, I misunderstood you then, but I'm honestly doubtful you would succeed in that endeavor anyway. FrozenPurpleCube 05:17, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I meant that they know where to find the old articles and prints. Bthsmathteam 05:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Um, having the high school students from years ago providing the "proper" info would actually be a problem in itself, as that be a primary, not a secondary source, and as such, not appropriate for Wikipedia unless published in a reliable form. And while I suppose that lack of historical coverage might not be a reason to delete, the lack of significant third-party sources right now is a valid concern. FrozenPurpleCube 04:40, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Good Comments. Your help is indeed appreciated. The username part is a good insight. What needs to be done is to improved its the historical content, which is not impossible. More info can be added later but there is no need to delete the article before people, such as the high school students from decades ago, can provide the proper info. Bthsmathteam 04:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge into parent article Brooklyn Technical High School. This is an excellent math team but the article is almost without content.
--RandomHumanoid(⇒) 04:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you! Finally someone is more familiar with the topic. SIBL (Science, Industry & Business Library) in Manhattan is closed tomorrow. The database there can provide great help. Clamster5 tagged the topic less than 30 minutes after this article started. Please allow time for improvement.Bthsmathteam 05:10, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I still think the article should be merged into Brooklyn Tech's. Truth be told, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, and Hunter have historically had better math teams but their math teams don't have their own articles either. --RandomHumanoid(⇒) 05:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- RandomHumanoid, I am not against merging as I have said above in reply to FrozenPurpleCube. I am only against delete.
- FYI, Bronx Sci's Math Team has been inactive for a few years.Bthsmathteam 05:35, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Didn't know about Bronx Science's math team; that's a shame. It was quite good when I was in high school, although I went to one of the other aforementioned schools. Anyway, you don't need anyone's permission to include math team info in the Brooklyn Tech article. You can simply add a section about it within the larger article and forget about this AfD.--RandomHumanoid(⇒) 05:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If it's considered "not notable", wouldn't it still be subjected to delete from the larger article?Bthsmathteam 05:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Not at all. What is being questioned here is whether it merits its own article. It would certainly be a reasonable addition to Brooklyn Tech's article, as long as the mention isn't overly long. You'll find that you have much more leeway here adding content to articles than you do in creating new ones. By the way, you really do need to change your user name to avoid conflict of interest WP:COI accusations. --RandomHumanoid(⇒) 05:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Can I delete this article? Bthsmathteam 05:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- No, but you can request speedy deletion of the article, with the understanding that you're going to merge with its parent. I'm sure an admin will close this discussion early in that case. Post a message at the top under the nomination for deletion. --RandomHumanoid(⇒) 06:04, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Can I delete this article? Bthsmathteam 05:58, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Not at all. What is being questioned here is whether it merits its own article. It would certainly be a reasonable addition to Brooklyn Tech's article, as long as the mention isn't overly long. You'll find that you have much more leeway here adding content to articles than you do in creating new ones. By the way, you really do need to change your user name to avoid conflict of interest WP:COI accusations. --RandomHumanoid(⇒) 05:55, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- If it's considered "not notable", wouldn't it still be subjected to delete from the larger article?Bthsmathteam 05:50, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Didn't know about Bronx Science's math team; that's a shame. It was quite good when I was in high school, although I went to one of the other aforementioned schools. Anyway, you don't need anyone's permission to include math team info in the Brooklyn Tech article. You can simply add a section about it within the larger article and forget about this AfD.--RandomHumanoid(⇒) 05:47, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- I still think the article should be merged into Brooklyn Tech's. Truth be told, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science, and Hunter have historically had better math teams but their math teams don't have their own articles either. --RandomHumanoid(⇒) 05:26, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge or DELTE this article is not Read the article carefully and it is assured that the article is unbiased The team doesn't meet notability requirements---and it isn't because it's a math team---it wouldn't meet them if it was a sports team. Sorry.Balloonman 05:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.