Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Big Spring Cafe

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Relisting request is denied as there is sufficient consensus. Stifle (talk) 15:33, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Big Spring Cafe

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No coverage beyond local (Huntsville pop <200,000). ^Bongo_matic 13:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nominator. WP:N and more specifically WP:CORP state that we need non-local coverage from independent sources to establish notability.Griswaldo (talk) 13:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as subject is the focus of decades of news articles and meets the explicit WP:CORP standard of "one regional, national, or international source" with regional coverage by the Alabama Department of Tourism. Opened in 1928, Big Spring Cafe is the oldest restaurant in a metro area of a half-million people and one of the oldest in the Southeastern United States. - Dravecky (talk) 18:14, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Alabama-related deletion discussions. —Dravecky (talk) 18:17, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Promotional materials from the Alabama Department of Tourism do not qualify as a reliable source of notability.Griswaldo (talk) 18:38, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is the source in question and it certainly does not qualify.Griswaldo (talk) 18:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is your assertion that the State of Alabama is not a reliable source of information or that it is not independent of this restaurant? The brochure is not an indiscriminate directory but a carefully selected, very exclusive listing. (Only 4 Huntsville restaurants made the cut and only 1 in Birmingham, Alabama's largest city.) I contend that it certainly does qualify as a reliable, independent source for this purpose. - Dravecky (talk) 20:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not only does promotional material of this nature not constitute reliable sources, but "Chili burger & slaw dog at Big Spring Cafe, 256-539-9994" (the entire mention of the restaurant in the brochure) does not in any case constitute "significant coverage". To the contrary, it is explicitly excluded under the "Depth of coverage" section of WP:CORP. ^Bongo_matic 20:20, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Food and drink-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:32, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 19:33, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It's not about simply counting sources; it's about determining historical and cultural significance of the sort that makes for long term historical notability. This article establishes that this restaurant has been in operation since 1928 and as such is a local landmark that's influenced its town's cuisine for several generations. That's the kind of significance we need to be looking for in an article about a commercial business. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 20:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You're clearly describing only local "historical and cultural significance" -- "local landmark that's influenced its town's cuisine for several generations". The guideline you linked, WP:CORP asks for non-local sources precisely to establish notability outside of small localities like Huntsville. I'm not sure I understand your rationale. It appears to shoot itself in the foot.Griswaldo (talk) 04:05, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Huntsville is not a "small locality". It is, in fact, the third-largest city in Alabama and the population of the metro area is comparable to the population of Washington, DC, or the entire state of Montana. Even so, is the size of the city a determining factor? Not to run afoul of WP:OTHERSTUFF, but would the same logic be used against Cole's Pacific Electric Buffet, the oldest restaurant in Los Angeles, which is also sourced to 'local' news sources? - Dravecky (talk) 05:39, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This is exactly why we have WP:OTHERSTUFF - because while these entries seem similar in your comparison they are not. A quick google books search shows that Coles is clearly quite notable. The current state of the entry needs to be improved, but it can be improved with non-local material where the Big Spring entry cannot.Griswaldo (talk) 11:47, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, significant coverage in secondary WP:RS sources. -- Cirt (talk) 01:45, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Request re-listing as opposed to closing this now in order to get more community input. There is an ongoing discussion about restaurant notability, and another recent AfD closed with no consensus. It would be good to get more comments here too.Griswaldo (talk) 04:05, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question Where else could one seek input without it being considered canvassing? Would notifying the people involved in the discussions about restaurants at the relevant policy page, WP:CORP be OK? Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 04:26, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's been listed in the business-related deletion discussion for more than a week so any genuinely interested editor has had plenty of notice and time to weigh in. WP:CORP is not the only policy at work in this discussion. - Dravecky (talk) 06:34, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Huntsville is not a small community — it's not as if this were a newspaper from Huntsville, Ohio — and thus its major newspaper is a major regional source. State government sources are definitely reliable, and there's more to it than the menu and phone number: by including the restaurant at all, the state source is saying that this is a highly important restaurant. We have enough coverage from the Huntsville Times upon which to establish an encyclopedia article, and statewide coverage to show that it's not just locally known. Yes, restaurants aren't all notable, but if one gets this kind of coverage, there's no good reason to say that it's not worthy of an encyclopedia article for notability reasons; deleting it won't help the encyclopedia. Nyttend (talk) 14:49, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: There is not state source calling this a "highly important restaurant". There is a tourism source that names it as a ___location to eat at when in the state ... for marketing purposes. The source does not discuss the importance of the restaurant at all, it advertises it when advertising the state.Griswaldo (talk) 14:56, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also, please note that Huntsville, Alabama is not a region, it is a locality, however big or small one claims it is. WP:CORP asks for regional coverage as the bare minimum, not local coverage. The Huntsville Times has a circulation of 57,000, btw.Griswaldo (talk) 14:58, 5 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.