- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. No prejudice towards a merge discussion. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:00, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Commando Cody (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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No out-of-universe notability. Beerest355 Talk 23:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. Beerest355 Talk 23:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Beerest355 Talk 23:09, 12 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- (Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)
- Keep My first question here becomes "would we expect the lead character of multiple 1950s movie serials and films, as well as being the inspiration for later projects, to have real-world relevance in 2013?" Surprisingly, research shows this character has indeed received special note in multiple independent sources[1][2] thus justifying a keep. This understood however, after a keep, I suggest we use the article's talk page to discuss a merge and redirect to the more comprehensive Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe where the character is properly spoken of in relationship to the films in which he featured or inspired. As far as "in-universe"... and while some of the available coverage is "out of universe"... it is expected and quite logical that a character be spoken of in relationship to the works in which he appeared or inspired. After all, we will not hear real-world news about a fictional character running for president or winning an Olympic medal. By way of example, coverage of Luke Skywalker and Han Solo is also mostly "in-universe", without detracting from these characters firmly established notability. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:30, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but I can't see how those books and sources listed justify a keep. All of the coverage relates to the character in the serials he appeared in, with little on the character and how he is notable. Also, for the Skywalker and Solo articles, note the Reception section, which proves they have out of universe notability, as they, the characters themselves, have been covered in different articles, unrelated to the films. Beerest355 Talk 18:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- See response below. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but I can't see how those books and sources listed justify a keep. All of the coverage relates to the character in the serials he appeared in, with little on the character and how he is notable. Also, for the Skywalker and Solo articles, note the Reception section, which proves they have out of universe notability, as they, the characters themselves, have been covered in different articles, unrelated to the films. Beerest355 Talk 18:38, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science fiction-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 03:14, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. The character made a significant impression on George Lucas, a musician and others. Clarityfiend (talk) 20:56, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Does that provide notability? The way the section's worded, it seems most people were more inspired by the serials themselves than this non-notable character. If sources can be found that establish the notability of this character on his own, then the article should stay, but for now it seems he's really not notable. Beerest355 Talk 21:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, as it shows the wished for real-world effects of a fictional character. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems most of these are about the serial. Heck, the article even uses a television template. Where are the sources that show notability? Beerest355 Talk 22:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Changing a template is a matter for regular editing, not deletion. Fictional characters are naturally discussed within Wikipedia in context to their works of fiction. We do not mandate that Han Solo be covered only if we have coverage of Han rescuing a bus full of nuns or for running for political office. While the matter of covering fictional elements returns to AFD for discussion on a regular basis, notability of a fictional character is not found simply through anything the characater has done, but rather though the contextual coverage of the character within those things that were done. If there were no coverage, then your assertion of non-notability would make sense, but wide coverage over many years in in multiple independent sources meets our most basic notability guide. Of course, this still might be best covered at Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe... but per Deletion policy, a merge discussion does not require a deletion. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The coverage of Han Solo is far more then this character. Also, I'd like to see those reliable sources you're talking about, as I found about zero that cover Commando Cody exclusively. Note that fictional characters need to be notable outside of having a large role in notable media. Beerest355 Talk 22:54, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry, but "topic exclusivity" of a source is not per guideline... guideline which instead specifically tells us that a topic being discussed need not be the main topic of the source material.
- Note, we do not expect that fictional characters be notable for running for public office or doing some real-world event. Topic notability for fictional elements is logically and rationally based upon coverage of that character in relationship to their notable works of fiction.... not coverage that ignores their works of fiction.
- IE: Without his relationship to Star Wars Han Solo has no real-world notability. Without his relationship to Star Trek, James Kirk has no real-world notability. Without their relationships to their notable works of fiction, such as Chewbacca or Winnie the Pooh have no out-of-their-universe notability. Their notability is because of their fictional works. And yes, in those other articles, other-than-in-universe analysis is offered due to the recentism and popularity of those fictional works... but such would not be available if the related fictional works did not exist ih the first place. It's chicken or egg. One is dependent on the other's existance.
- The cogent essay WP:FICTION tells us "There is no special guideline for the notability of fictional elements (such as characters and episodes) on Wikipedia. See other relevant policies and guidelines in order to determine which fiction-related articles are appropriate for inclusion on Wikipedia. In particular, editors should review:
- The general notability guideline
- The policy on what Wikipedia is not
- The manual of style for writing about fiction
- Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Just hold up a second here. "Exclusivity" isn't what I'm trying to say - I'm trying to say that sources that discuss more than just "Commando Cody is a character in Radar Men from the Moon" are needed. From WP:FICTION: "Articles on fiction elements are expected to cover more about "real-world" aspects of the element, such as its development and reception, than "in-universe" details." Also, please stop bringing up all those other articles, which clearly have segments devoted to the reception, proving their notability outside of the franchise they belong to. Commando Cody's only sources only discuss the fact that he, yes, appeared in some serials. Unless you can prove me otherwise, because I failed to find any. Beerest355 Talk 01:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I was responding to your writing " I found about zero that cover Commando Cody exclusively." and your also writing "fictional characters need to be notable outside of having a large role in notable media". As I illustrated, your first point runs contrary to existing guideline and your second point ignores that fictional characters have their notability in direct correlation to to their notable fictions and are not expected to have the same real-world coverage as do real people. That isue aside, I feel that Clarityfiend offering "The character made a significant impression on George Lucas, a musician and others" shows this "fictional character" as actually having real-world ramifications beyond his films. Also a point of logic is that film heroes of the 1950s do not have quite the same level of analysis or commentary as do their their modern counterparts.
- Further your debate has not at all addressed the possible merge of material to the more comprehensive Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe. Please read that that article to see that it is a suitable merge target. Hmmm? Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 04:33, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Just hold up a second here. "Exclusivity" isn't what I'm trying to say - I'm trying to say that sources that discuss more than just "Commando Cody is a character in Radar Men from the Moon" are needed. From WP:FICTION: "Articles on fiction elements are expected to cover more about "real-world" aspects of the element, such as its development and reception, than "in-universe" details." Also, please stop bringing up all those other articles, which clearly have segments devoted to the reception, proving their notability outside of the franchise they belong to. Commando Cody's only sources only discuss the fact that he, yes, appeared in some serials. Unless you can prove me otherwise, because I failed to find any. Beerest355 Talk 01:47, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The coverage of Han Solo is far more then this character. Also, I'd like to see those reliable sources you're talking about, as I found about zero that cover Commando Cody exclusively. Note that fictional characters need to be notable outside of having a large role in notable media. Beerest355 Talk 22:54, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Changing a template is a matter for regular editing, not deletion. Fictional characters are naturally discussed within Wikipedia in context to their works of fiction. We do not mandate that Han Solo be covered only if we have coverage of Han rescuing a bus full of nuns or for running for political office. While the matter of covering fictional elements returns to AFD for discussion on a regular basis, notability of a fictional character is not found simply through anything the characater has done, but rather though the contextual coverage of the character within those things that were done. If there were no coverage, then your assertion of non-notability would make sense, but wide coverage over many years in in multiple independent sources meets our most basic notability guide. Of course, this still might be best covered at Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe... but per Deletion policy, a merge discussion does not require a deletion. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:45, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- It seems most of these are about the serial. Heck, the article even uses a television template. Where are the sources that show notability? Beerest355 Talk 22:36, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, as it shows the wished for real-world effects of a fictional character. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 22:22, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Does that provide notability? The way the section's worded, it seems most people were more inspired by the serials themselves than this non-notable character. If sources can be found that establish the notability of this character on his own, then the article should stay, but for now it seems he's really not notable. Beerest355 Talk 21:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Question: Where will the "Confusion with other serials" and "references in other media" sections go, if this article is deleted. They're interesting, but they don't belong on either of the articles about the two serials, but they're not specifically about just that serial. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 23:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Which is why, after a "keep", a merge to Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe is well worth discussion to make that determination (and I would think that discussion should have been undergone first)...but, and please note, per deletion policy, a merge discussion does not require an AFD, AFDs which quite often and well-intended happen without first looking for better solutions. Schmidt, MICHAEL Q. 00:50, 14 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge to Radar Men from the Moon and Commando Cody: Sky Marshal of the Universe, as appropriate. Subject does not meet WP:GNG; sources are passing mentions. Miniapolis 13:33, 19 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.