Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Endogamy in the Spanish monarchy

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Sandstein 08:45, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Endogamy in the Spanish monarchy

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Unreferenced, inaccurate and indiscriminate genealogical trivia, representing the original research of a single editor using an unreliable on-line genealogical database. Agricolae (talk) 20:54, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Agricolae (talk) 20:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Spain-related deletion discussions. Agricolae (talk) 20:57, 2 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Potential Keep -- the fact that the Hapsburg dynasty, ruling in Spain and Austria were severely interbred was notorious, giving rise to the Hapsburg lip. This probably needs rather more work before it can be considered a decent article, perhaps eliminating monarchs who were not severly inbred. However the concept is not so ridiculous as to warrnat AFD deletion. I am not convinced of the merits of the present name. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:59, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so here is the problem - They were all significantly inbred, from the 9th century kingdoms of Leon and Navarre (both inexplicably left out) to the Bourbons, so the concept of there being endogamy is valid, but it has never been addressed, except in passing when reporting a single specific marriage, with two exceptions of which I am aware - an article on endogamy (actually using that term in the title) in late 9th - early 10th century Kingdom of Pamplona (which the compiler of these tables has decided not to include), and in the case of the Hapsburgs. That is not to say that there wasn't inbreeding in the kingdom of Leon (10th - 11th centuries, ignored), the autonomous county of Castile (10th - 11th centuries, ignored), the kingdom of Castile (12-16th centuries, ignored) and the kingdom of Navarre (10th - 16th or 17th, ignored), but I am unaware of it being addressed except in passing (e.g. when reporting a marriage to say something like 'Ramiro then married Adosinda, daughter of the Galician count Gutierre Osoriz and his own first cousin', or when it served as pretext for subsequent divorce). That is also not to say the compiler was aware of this body of scholarly work - they simply looked at the on-line Roglo genealogy database (non-WP:RS) and compiled a table by WP:SYNTH. It includes people and relationships completely made up by 'genealogists' (the entire Asturias table is nonsense - of the five endogamous marriages shown, not a single relationship is authentic), and also includes highly speculative and completely irrelevant connections 9 generations back (in the Castile section, the relationship of the wives of Alfonso VI is based on noting more than 'here is an early 10th century person named Raymond and he named his son Bernard and in the mid-9th century there is a person named Raymond who named his son Bernard, so the second Raymond was probably grandson of the first' - Alfonso and his wives in the late 11th century would have been completely unaware, while the pope tried to force Alfonso to divorce his second wife for being too closely related to his first, a much more relevant connection). I do not think that there exists sources to do a comprehensive article on the subject as a whole that is consistent with Wikipedia policy on sourcing. There could certainly be an article on the inbreeding among the Hapsburgs (which need not be limited to Spain), and maybe one on the inbreeding in early Navarre (although one obscure article in French does not necessarily establish notability for WP.en), but bridging the two with 600 years of unreliable arbitrary original research just doesn't cut it. What we have here is just an exercise in 'look what I found in the database'. Agricolae (talk) 16:23, 4 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per Agricolae's comment that "I do not think that there exists sources to do a comprehensive article on the subject as a whole", meaning on the subject of the Spanish monarchies. An article on Habsburg endogamy would, if properly done, be acceptable. And I think the article you are referring to is "Endogamia en la dinastía regia de Pamplona (siglos IX–XI)" by Cañada Palacio, which is in Spanish, not French. Srnec (talk) 04:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but absolutely not! I see that I got the two confused/combined in my mind - the one you mention (available here [1]) uses the term endogamy, but I was actually thinking of "Consanguinity et Alliances Dynastiques en Espagne au Haut Moyen Age: La Politique Matrimoniale de la Reinne Tota de Navarre" by Thierry Stasser (which, obviously, doesn't use 'endogamy' but is in French). So, we have two scholarly articles on royal Iberian endogamy, other than the Hapsburgs, and they both deal with the same minor kingdom (Pamplona/Navarre, a kingdom not even included in the current page), during the same time period (9th-10th in one, 9th-11th century in the other), and nothing on the 500 years in between, nor any of the other kingdoms (Leon, Castile, Aragon). Agricolae (talk) 05:25, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Historically inaccurate, as mentioned by Agricolae above. Further, it is not an article in the style of Endogamy in the British monarchy but is a piece of original synthesis in list format. I am skeptical that such topics are appropriate for WP articles; a great deal of original synthesis is needed, and sources directly discussing the articles' subjects are rare. dci | TALK 02:17, 9 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.