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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gyula J. Obádovics

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. This nomination has been relisted for about a month and its clear there is non-consenus (non-admin closure) JayJayWhat did I do? 02:53, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Gyula J. Obádovics

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Gyula J. Obádovics (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The subject of the article seems clearly to fail WP:PROF. Few of his publications seem to be indexed by Google Scholar, and still fewer have received any citations. Only one of his publications seems to be indexed by MathSciNet, and only three by Zentralblatt. None of them jumps out as being especially notable or significant. Sławomir Biały (talk) 02:49, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. Sławomir Biały (talk) 02:50, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. Sławomir Biały (talk) 02:52, 29 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I don't know how significant the awards listed in the article are but as a member of the Hungarian Academy of Sciences [1] he passes WP:PROF#C3. I suspect that the lack of coverage in Google scholar is more due to his work being pre-internet and not in English than in its significance. The lack of coverage in MathSciNet and Zentralblatt is more of a concern, but I think his evident local notability within the Hungarian mathematics community should be enough to make up for that. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:05, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
He is a member of the Köztestület of MTA. Any Hungarian citizen can be a member, who has a Ph.D. or equivalent degree. There are, I don't know, maybe 20000 members. Eppstein's above ref mixed up two search engines of mta.hu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.181.202.103 (talk) 08:55, 4 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I am striking my comment, since it seems to be based on a mistake. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:43, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article conspicuously makes one of the common newbie mistakes: Give biographical details in chronological order first; mention anything that could constitute notability later. It should be exactly the other way around. Michael Hardy (talk) 17:40, 1 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 15:07, 6 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, -- Cheers, Riley 00:06, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. One of those awards is actually the highest ranking state order, the Order of Merit of the Republic of Hungary, but its name was translated differently in the article, that's why Google couldn't find it. He has several books and other publications, and according to the Hungarian wikiarticle he was instrumental in the spread of computer science education in Hungary. (I know it's not a valid argument but even I heard about him and I'm as far from mathematics as anyone can be.) The article needs some improving. – Alensha talk 23:50, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also, if he was born in 1927 then he spent most of his career under communist rule, and I'm not sure academics were allowed to publish in Western countries, so it's no surprising that an American mathematics review site doesn't list them. – Alensha talk 23:54, 14 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep per Alensha. Even allowing for difficulties of communication between Communist and non-Communist countries during the Cold War period, WP:PROF#C1 is fairly obviously not met - in fields like mathematics, at least some major academic journals from Communist countries were indexed in Zentralblatt or Mathematical Reviews, and publication in Western journals, while sometimes difficult, was not uncommon, so one would expect at least a little more evidence on GScholar than there is. However, the Order of Merit of the Republic of Hungary, together with GNews results (allowing for Hungarian name order) and some of the other biographical details, do suggest he probably meets WP:PROF#C7 (and quite possibly #C4) - but it would be nice for someone to confirm this from Hungarian sources. PWilkinson (talk) 01:25, 17 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, pending confirmation of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Hungary award. That award is sufficient in itself, regardless of strength of publication. (signing later -- forgot to sign at the time: -- Michael Scott Cuthbert (talk) 05:47, 21 December 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • Question is the award of the Order of Merit verifiable anywhere? I'm having trouble, but I don't speak or read Hungarian. RayTalk 20:53, 19 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, MBisanz talk 03:22, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: per all the above, if the Budapest University of Technology and Economics website is a reliable source: here (if my Google-Translated Hungarian is good) they mention Obádovics as one of two of their alumni to win the "Knight's Cross" class of the above-mentioned Order of Merit. (Also, if the Knight's cross class qualifies for #C7.) הסרפד (Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 04:24, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Delete: Changed !vote per consensus below (Tkuvho and Lankiveil) that the "knight" level of the Order of Merit does not meet Criterion #7, and there is nothing else going for keeping the article. הסרפד (Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 07:07, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Both the "order of merit" and his allegedly large publication list are entirely invisible from the point of view of the English wikipedia. Therefore they constitute an argument in favor of retaining the page in the Hungarian wiki, which is not the subject of this page. What year exactly did he get his "order of merit"? One wonders to what extent he may have gotten it as a result of being a well-connected party apparatchik rather than a notable scientist. Similarly, it is altogether unobvious that his allegedly numerous "publications" (invisible in the standard english sources such as mathematical reviews and google scholar) may not be merely teaching manuals that do not establish his notability as either scholar or professor. It is odd that someone with an h-index of about one-half should pass here. Tkuvho (talk) 09:48, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Firstly, notability does not have to be in English—either one is notable, as mentioned in any reliable source, no matter what language—or one is not. Secondly, had you followed the link I gave you would see that he received the Order of Merit in 2003—so which "party" are you referring to? הסרפד (Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 14:42, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • OK, I checked your source. It does mention Obádovics. But it also mentions several hundred other laureates of these prizes. Note that the "knight's" prize is not the first, nor the second, but the sixth level of this national prize. What you are essentially arguing is that several hundred wiki pages be automatically added for each of those names. I emphasize that there is no evidence of notability as a scientist. The link you provided is the best evidence that the page should be deleted. Tkuvho (talk) 14:58, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • A comparison with Vilmos Totik sheds light on the present academic. Totik has 170 articles in Mathematical Reviews, inspite of language problems. Tkuvho (talk) 15:06, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • That is precisely the question I asked (somewhat unclearly) in my first post above: is the Knight level of the Order of Merit a PROF-C#7–worthy award? (The other hundreds of laureates, though, seem to be those of even less noteworthy awards.) הסרפד (Hasirpad) [formerly Ratz...bo] 19:06, 25 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • lovagkereszt is the level he got. According to the hungarian page, this is the last of the six levels of this national prize (I assume the hungarian page is more accurate than the English page which lists additional levels). I don't think that kind of thing establishes notability particularly if no other factors are present. Tkuvho (talk) 16:40, 26 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, notability seems to rest on the "Order of Merit" prize, but that prize is at the sixth and most minor level. With no disrespect intended to the subject of this article, that's not quite good enough. Lankiveil (speak to me) 00:20, 29 December 2012 (UTC).[reply]
  • Delete per discussion above of the level of notability of the Order of Merit at the most minor level; there were no other grounds for notability. RayTalk 21:59, 30 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. Appears notable, but sourcing for a WWII / cold war era Hungarian mathematician is difficult to come by. I think we should defer to https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob%C3%A1dovics_J._Gyula Tha Hungarian Wikipedia needs attention and improvement, and this is not helped by our rejecting tranlations of their articles. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:57, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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