Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Halime Sultan

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep (non-admin closure). Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:16, 17 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Halime Sultan

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Appears only in a Turkish TV drama "Muhteşem Yüzyıl: Kösem", not mentioned by academic sources, likely never existed. kashmiri ^TALK 11:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Musa Talk 14:39, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep, speedy close. The nominator provides nothing to back up their argument, and makes no effort to refute the substantial reliable sourcing provided as article references. There may be a dispute over the appropriate name for the article, and there may be questions about the use of the historical drama as a source for article content, but neither of these content issues justifies deletion. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) (talk) 15:07, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Seems to be a well-sourced article and if she was Valide Sultan she's obviously notable. Would the nominator like to specify why they think she never existed? -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It's up to the article creator to prove that the person did exist. The sources quoted do not mention this, and the name seems a speculation as well. See also article's Talk page. kashmiri ^TALK 20:40, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So, you've checked every print source cited have you? Obviously she did exist (everyone has a mother!) and was Valide Sultan (and is therefore notable) - it seems to be only her name that's in doubt. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 15:19, 10 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strong keep @Kashmiri@Necrothesp@The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo) This person actually existed and the sources also mention her. For example take a look at page 127 of The Imperial Harem: Women and Sovereignty in the Ottoman Empire published by Oxford University Press and written by Leslie P. Peirce which is also used as a source on this article (click on the book's link). It is stated that: "When Ahmed's brother Mustafa became Sultan in 1617, his mother - whose name is unknown to history - received 3000 aspers as Valide Sultan although her mother-in-law Safiye was still alive. However, she received only 2,000 aspers during her retirement to the Old Palace between her son's two reigns; during the first months of her retirement Safiye was still alive, perhaps a neighbour in the Old Palace, receiving 3,000 aspers a day." So she existed but her name is a speculation. And if I were you, I wouldn't take those comments on the talk page so seriously. That person claims to be of Ottoman royalty and has deleted all the sourced information based on his own views. I have reverted his edits so many times. Keivan.f^Talk 08:36, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: As the academic sources mention her existence but not her name, now we have to decide about this article's title. Actually the name of this historical figure is "Halime" in historical drama series "Muhteşem Yüzyıl: Kösem". I don't know from where the writers of this show have found this name but I think we can't rely on it as a source. Keivan.f^Talk 08:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So, you've checked every print source cited have you? Obviously she did exist (everyone has a mother!) and was Valide Sultan (and is therefore notable) - it seems to be only her name that's in doubt. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:40, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Necrothesp Yes, she absolutely existed and was a Valide Sultan (Queen Mother) during her son's reigns. But it seems that her name is unknown. Keivan.f^Talk 12:59, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

So, in fact, you're not questioning the notability of the article, but its title? In that case it should have gone to WP:RM and not WP:AfD. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:46, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Necrothesp Well actually I haven't given this deletion request. User:Kashmiri did it. Now that it has become clear that this person existed and was notable enough to have a separate article, I think this request must be closed. Keivan.f^Talk 16:24, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, sorry, but my comment appears to have been moved from the person I was actually replying to, which confused me as to who I was talking to. I was initially replying to Kashmiri's comment immediately beneath my first post and you moved my answer, which is most strange - not sure why you did that! Was it a mistake? -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:26, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved my post back to the place I originally put it, hence the striking-out above. -- Necrothesp (talk) 16:33, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Necrothesp Eh, sorry. It was just a mistake. I was trying to move my own comments below the notes that you had added and it seems that I had become confused about the actual place of your message. :) Keivan.f^Talk 19:00, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - seems reasonably well sourced. If there are issues on the name, take it to RM. 1bandsaw (talk) 16:29, 11 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- As regent of the Ottoman Empire, surely she was notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:04, 13 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- As valide sultan, she was the most powerful person in the Ottoman dynasty after the sultan himself. Letempsviendra (talk) 22:31, 14 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. In Agaston-Masters (a source of this article) for Mustafa I, it reads "son of Sultan Mehmed III and an Abkhazian royal concubine, whose name has not been determined" (p.409). Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 10:50, 16 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.