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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ido and Novial compared

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was NO CONSENSUS. I'm closing as a default keep for now. Wikipedia cannot make a comparison between two things. No matter how well referenced each of the things compared it, it will still be original research. All we can do is report comparisons made by other scholars. We report research, we don't do it. That's a fine but important line. I'm closing as keep for now to allow the article to be re-written with citations to comparisons being made elsewhere. If such cannot be added after a reasonable time, then the article MUST be deleted. If it isn't properly cites, I invite someone to re-nominate it after, say, two months, or alternatively an admin to delete it on the strength of this debate. -Docg 22:37, 20 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ido and Novial compared

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Ido and Novial compared (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Contested prod. Page is WP:OR, and at first glance is probable to stay that way (more contents, but still original research). No WP:V sources given, and none seem available as far as I can see (see e.g. the 410 Google hits, which don't look to be really about the subject[1], and the fact that there are no Google hits for any text containing either "novial and ido compared" [2] or "ido and novial compared" [3]. For the moment, no encyclopedic content at all. Oh, not a reason for deletion, but using a Christian prayer as the comparison text in the article (and similar ones) is probably not the best choice for a neutral text about languages intended to unite the world in friendship. Fram 21:58, 15 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and expand. This is evidently a nascent form of something much like the article Esperanto and Novial compared. A link needs to be added from the Novial page once this reaches an equivalent form. I'm puzzled how this could be considered original research any more than a table of corresponding identities of circular and hyperbolic functions. Nothing has been made up and all is well known. Links should be added of course, but this page has just started. To see what it will probably evolve into, look at Esperanto and Novial compared.

Perhaps some more explanation as to why this is neither frivolous nor trivial is in order. Otto Jespersen was by far the most sophisticated and scholarly of the creators of auxiliary languages. Today he is best remembered for his profound and extensive work on English grammar. His creation of Novial was driven by the inadequacies of Esperanto and Ido. He wrote on this in An International Language, referenced on the Novial page. References to this will undoubtably be added as the article expands.

In comparing Ido and Novial, we can see why Novial is what it is, and more importantly, we can see what a first-rate linguistic thinker thought had to be changed. The topic is of interest even though nowadays the notion of an artificial international auxiliary language seems hopelessly quaint.

Finally, let me address the paternosters that Fram found offensive. In fact, this is a tradition of comparative linguistics, perhaps because a translation is almost always readily available. (Another traditional comparison is the fable of the Sun and the North Wind.) Furthermore, Novial was not intended to unite the world in friendship, though I'm sure Jespersen wouldn't have minded if it did. It was intended as a practical language for international business and science. It may not sound practical today, but when it was created it sounded like plain good sense to many level-headed people. OinkOink 03:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: Esperanto and Novial compared, the page you use as an example for what this will become, has no sources or references at all. References to the work of Jespersen, if added, are no secondary sources of course, as he is the creator of Novial (and involved with Ido as well). How do you judge that this is not WP:OR? As for the "unite the world in friendship", this comes from the introduction to the page Novial: "He devised Novial to be an international auxiliary language (IAL), which would facilitate international communication and friendship, ". As for the prayer, from Talk:Esperanto and Novial compared, it looks to me as if people are making up their own translation of the prayer, not using a standard version. So what is then the value of it, and why not use some neutral text? I don't really care about tradition, especially not when it is non-neutral. Fram 20:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"He devised Novial to be an international auxiliary language (IAL), which would facilitate international communication and friendship, " I've read a great deal by Jespersen about Novial. I doubt whether he ever made such a statement. That's probably the personal opinion of the editor who wrote it. Wikipedia has a lot of opinion and clearly erroneous statements are sometimes made. It's best not to use Wikipedia articles as if they are sources: I thought that was policy. Nov ialiste 18:56, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a breezy dismissal of the entire field of comparative linguistics! A comparison of, say, Novial and Turkish would indeed not make sense. But a comparison of related languages, such as Middle English and Modern English does make sense, and is necessary to understand the history of English and the effects of the Great Vowel Shift. Likewise, a comparison of High German to Low German, Dutch, or English does make sense, and is necessary to understand the effects of the High German consonant shift. This article does not compare Novial with just any random language, but with one of the languages that closely inspired it, which in the realm of constructed languages, is as close to a genetic relationship as you can come. OinkOink 23:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No, this is only a dismissal of almost empty articles with two versions of Paternoster written in almost non-notable constructed languages. I think that such things should be in Wikisource, not in Wikipedia.--Ioannes Pragensis 17:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and expand. Several articles comparing the most influential AILs already exist:

The first 3 are linked from the Esperanto navigation box. In "An International Language (1928)" Jespersen critiques the major IALs including Ido. This type of article is very informative, helpful and interesting to people seriously interested in IALs. Novial is one of the most influential IALs. If this article deserves deletion so do those other articles some of which are quite old and well developed. Nov ialiste 02:42, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reply: "if this article is deleted, then so should those" is an old argument in AfD's and usually considered invalid. As I have discussed above, none of these articles has WP:V sources discussing these comparisons (making them for the moment WP:OR), and only one of them has any sources at all. Being linked from a navigation box is not a reasdon to keep any articles, being helpful and interesting is not a reason for keeping either, being old and quite well developed isn't either. Do these articles follow Wikipedia policies? No. Can they be rewritten to be compliant to Wikipedia policies? Perhaps, but that has not been shown by the defenders of the article in question, and the "good" comparable examples don't show it either. So as far as I can see, this is still a WP:OR article. Fram 20:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
So why not nominate all for deletion? I was tempted to do so but that might have been viewed as disruption to make a point. All your arguments apply to *all* these articles. Why are the others not nominated for deletion? How many other articles comparing languages or dialects do your arguments apply to? Or is it more to the point that the newest article which I believe is less than 48 hours old is clearly a stub? Do all stubs get nominated for deletion?Nov ialiste 22:52, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Because I had seen this article via new pages patrol, and had not seen the others at the time, and because I wanted to try it first with this one, and could always come back to a second AfD for some of the others if this one was deleted. Fram 06:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


QUOTE: The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed.

Wikipedia:Verifiability is one of Wikipedia's three content policies. The other two are Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. Jointly, these policies determine the type and quality of material that is acceptable in the main namespace. They should not be interpreted in isolation from one another, and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three. The principles upon which these policies are based are negotiable only at the Foundation level. END QUOTE.

Note that all content in this article is readily verifiable - simply read the original sources which describe the languages. Nov ialiste 23:14, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What you describe is WP:OR: reading the original sources = original research. We need secondary sources. Thank you for confirming my point. Fram 06:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


The following are specific quotes from "An International Language" (1928) by Professor Otto Jespersen (the book which first described Novial: note that the book is about Novial, not Ido, but let's see how often Ido is mentioned).


"Therefore in Novial, as well as in Esp-Ido, we simplify the spelling in all words containing double letters in the national languages, from which the words are taken: pasa (E pass, F passer), efekte, komun (F commun, E common), etc. "

"This is especially the case with some more or less learned words, which it would be awkward to spell with j: geologia, geografia, and others with geo-, genealogia and others in -logia; further, gigante, gimnastike, tragedie, genie, general, original, geste; to these I count also rege 'king' on account of regal, regalia, though Ido has rejo."

"Imaje is better than image, and there is some justification for the Ido differentiation of this word and imagina vb imagine."

"The second pronunciation, [ts], is the one given everywhere to c in Esperanto and Ido, in the formerly undoubtedly on account of Zamenhof's Polish extraction; and in both languages c is used extensively with this value not only before e and i, but also before other vowels."

"In Ido we have the demonstratives ca, co, taken from F ce, but with a pronunciation and endings not found in F, and further a great many verbs like formacar, importacar, where the sound [ts] is taken, curiously enough, from the Latin (F E etc.) ending -ation, which has no place as such in the system."

" Ido alleviates these groups and has such forms as cienco, ecepter, ceno scene, etc."

". This means one sound less than Ido has, in the sc-words, and the group [ks] instead of [ts] in xc."

"Very often, where Ido has c, it is best to reintroduce the L ti, e.g. tendentie, silentio, natione, sientie, pretie - with the ordinary pronunciation of t, not with [ts] or [S]. in some of these ti is found in derivatives in some languages, e.g. D pretiosen, Dan pretiosa."

"This sh is found in Ido in a certain number of words, which seem worth of admission into our language on the principle of being known to a greater number of people than other expressions for the same ideas; some of them are common to E D Sc, others are found only in one or two of these languages; I give the most important of them, and quote them as above without any grammatical endings: sham, shark, shel, shild, shirm, shov, shovel, shu, shultr, shutr."

"In Esp and especially in Ido z is used extremely often, not only where F E write s between two vowels (rozo, amuzar, akuzar, fiziko), but also where the voiced sound is found only in one of these languages (krizo E crisis, bazo base, words beginning with iso- or ending with -ozo, E -ous), and even where neither language has the voiced sound (karezar caress, mazo mace, F massue, kazo case, F cas with mute s, komizo F commis, E salesman)."

"It is no exaggeration to say that this excessive use of the letter z is one of the features of Ido which are least liked in many countries, except perhaps by the few professional phoneticians. To the many millions speaking D I S it will always be a stumbling-block."

"This is D satz disfigured by writing z for the North-German initial sound and by the Polish-Zamenhofian c before the substantive ending -o, the whole thus a very strong argument for a revision of the entire Esp-Ido system."

"As we have seen, Ido is inconsistent; it is so even through writing s where according to its own principles it should undoubtedly have had z: frizo F frise E frieze, fusilo F fusil, gasoza F gazeux E gaseous (generally pronounced with z). "

"The result of this somewhat chaotic distribution of s and z is that in writing Ido one is constantly obliged to look up words in a dictionary, and in speaking it one cannot help hesitating now and then, for no one can remember each word separately."

"I suppose no one can doubt that this consistent use of only one letter where Esperanto and Ido have three, c,s, and z, constitutes a very considerable simplification and lessening of the burden on memory."

"But there may be many interlinguists who will think that this is only possible at the cost of clearness, because as a matter of fact these sounds are often used in Esp and Ido to distiguish words that would otherwise be identical."

"The alphabetical list on p. 174 will show how it is possible to get out of all serious difficulties without disfigurements of well-known words, for it can hardly be called a serious defect in Novial that musa means a female mouse as well as a muse! (Ido musino and muzo with unnatural -o.)"

"Here it is possible to pronounce the combinations of i and u with a following vowel either as one syllable (in which case the stress would fall on the preceding syllable) or else as two, with i or u stressed: the former is the system of Ido, the latter that of Esperanto."

"If we want to make things as easy as possible for everybody, we must therefore avoid the mistake of Idiom Neutral (and to a less extent of Occ) with its heavy groups of final consonants in many words, but must rather imitate Esperanto and Ido, which are made sonorous and pleasant to the ear by their numerous vocalic endings like Italian or Spanish."

"This ending was selected in Ido (with omission of the substantival ending of the singular, thus homi from homo man), the reason being twofold: a vocalic ending was wanted in order to make the addition of the (Esp) accusative -n possible, and on the other hand the s-endings were used as in Esp for the verb."

"NOTE.- Z quite properly gave to his definite article the same ending as to his adjectives: la bona, but he also felt that it would be unsupportable to inflect it like adjectives (lajn bonajn homojn etc.) and therefore made la invariable: Ido was more consistent and made adjectives invariable too (la bona homi). But then Ido had difficulties with "substantivized adjectives" (adjectives as primaries), and there invented the unlucky device of inflecting the article, plural le bona, neuter lo bona."

"It was an important step in advance, when Ido after having had for some years the Esp system established common-sex substantives, e.g. spozo husband or wife, patro parent, with derivative endings for both sexes: spozulo husband, spozino wife, patrulo father, patrino mother (though it yielded to sentimental reasons, which some look upon as prejudices, by also allowing the use of matro for `mother'). Ido also created a common-sex pronoun for the third person, lu by the side of masc. il (ilu) and feminine el (elu)."

And so on and so on and so on (I've only checked a few chapters of the book so far). The comparison of Novial with Ido has obviously been an object of careful consideration by one of the more influential 20th century linguists. Nov ialiste 23:43, 17 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Yet more quutes from the same book:

"But while the principle is sound, the way in which it is carried out in Ido does not deserve praise in every respect."

"It should be noted, also, that some words had to be changed, because the -in- found in national languages might be mistaken for the feminine suffix, thus Esp has rabeno instead of rabino, and Ido mandareno instead of mandarino (though -in- has been admitted in mandarino `mandarin orange'). As Ido has diciplino for `discipline,' it could not at the same time have diciplo for 'disciple,' and therefore took dicipulo for `disciple' or `pupil' of either sex, which makes dicipulino for a female and dicipululo (!) for a male pupil. Even stranger than this is the treatment of the word for `cousin'; Esp has kuzo for a male and kuzino for a female cousin, consequently Ido has kuzo as a common-sex word, and kuzulo, kuzino for the two separate sexes. "

"Esp and Ido have the prefix ge- for both sexes combined: gepatri parents, gesiori ladies and gentlemen. "

"This rule is carried through in E and must be ours in N (as Ido, but different from Esp): natural formes; ti forme es natural; ti formes es natural, etc."

" Z simply added his adjective ending -a to the personal pronouns: mia, via, lia, etc., which is systematic enough; and Ido took over the same system, adding -a to its personal pronouns, which are somewhat different from the Esperanto ones."

"These were not imitated by Ido."

"Ido keeps the acc. ending -n, but does not make its use compulsory and specially recommends it in the case of inversion: ilun me konocas, ne ilua spozino, him I know, but not his wife; mea amiko quan vu vidis my friend whom you have seen - thus very often with interrogative and relative pronouns."

"In Ido this play of vowels was extended to the infinitive amar to love, amir to have loved, amor to love in future, to be going to love."

"Several teachers of Esp and Ido say expressly that these six participles constitute one of the greatest difficulties for their pupils (cf. also estus estinta `would have been')."

"Now the corresponding construction would not do in a language of the Esp-Ido type, with an adjectival form of the participle and no indefinite article, because a sentence like me havas perdita klefo (or the plural klefi) would easily be misunderstood as meaning 'I have a lost key (some lost keys)' instead of 'I have lost a key (some keys).' "

"This was at first imitated in Ido (me esas perdinta, me esis perdinta), but to a West-European mind these must always seem clumsy roundabout expressions, and therefore most Idists took readily to the new synthetic forms with inserted -ab-, when these were allowed after some years: perdabis 'had lost', perdabos 'shall have lost', perdabus 'should have lost' (Why perdabas 'have lost' was not adopted at the same time, will ever remain a mystery)."

"It is, of course, possible to form participles of the auxiliaries: hant veni having come, salent veni = Ido venonta. "

"These compound forms may be freely used in apposition, but cannot easily be used as adjuncts in the same way as the Esp-Ido forms can, but then they are not often wanted and relative clauses are always handy."

"The existence of more than one passive participle in Esp-Ido creates some difficulties: what is exactly the difference between esas skribita and esis skribata, between esas skribota and esos skribata - in other words, should the time indication be added to the auxiliary or the main verb? "

" Now this rule was transferred by Z to Esp, and from Esp taken over into Ido, one of the reasons being probably that otherwise it would have been necessary to create a new tense for the shifted future in (3)."

"Now in Novial there is no necessity to follow the Russian rule, and we can easily form the shifted future missing in Esp-Ido, by adding -ed to the auxiliary sal: saled. "

"The Ido synthetic forms videsas, videsis, videsos, etc., are not good, because the most important element, that which should show the passive, is eliminated, and only the empty verb `be' is included."

"On the whole the synthetic forms of Ido are often cumbersome: it is possible to form such passives as naturaligesabis, elektrizadesabos, which are not far from outdoing certain Volapük formations."

"The chief differences between the Esp-Ido system and ours are (1) that in Novial the elements are separate words, in Esp-Ido inseparable word-elements: it is true that Z claimed that each of his suffixes, etc., was independent and separable (which leads to the curious use of suffixes like inda and igi as words in themselves), but this is not true of the verbal endings as, is, u, i etc. "

"The first of these endings is in Novial the same as in Esp and Ido, namely -o, but in our system it serves to denote substantives immediately derived from or connected with a verb and meaning the simple act or state denoted by the verb (nexus-substantives)."


"For the first sb Ido-dictionaries have rulilo, rulbloko, rulajo--rather unnatural formations. The word rule should be kept distinct from role, F rôle--etymologically the same word."

"Kronisa from krone 'crown' would therefore seem correct for 'to crown' (with kroniso coronation), but it must be admitted that 'to provide with a crown' is no fully adequate description of a coronation, and the formation krona with vbsb krono is less dangerous in our system than in Ido."

"It is claimed that this system is both clearer and more natural than those of Esp and Ido. "

"n writing Ido one is constantly confronted with the problem: am I here logical justified in using the immediate formation, or should I use a suffix and which?"

"But if Ido 's rules are too strict, those of Esp are undoubtedly too lax, as they allow any substantive to be made into a verb simply by changing the ending, and vice versa, without taking the meaning into account; each writer may thus follow the practice of his native language or his own individual fancy. "

"The same is the case to some extent in Ido, which has not -iono or -ationo as derivative suffix, but which has a certain number of words in -iono besides some in -aco, vb -acar, taken from national-language words in -ation in half-Russian dress, due to Zamenhof: formaco from formation (R formatsia), operaco, naraco; similarly atenco (= N atentione from atente). In other cases Ido has changed Esp -io into -iono: naciono, profesiono, prepoziciono, but without consistency: religio, ambicio. "

"Ido has the suffix -uro joined to verbal roots to denote the result or product as distinct from the act itself. "

" Note that our e/a/o-words make it possible to have simpler forms for many Esp and Ido ilo-words; in N -ilo is used only where it is absolutely necessary to start from the verb."

"The latter is the only way in which -izar is used in Ido, but the suffix is really much less widely used in national languages in this than in the first-mentioned meaning, corresponding to Ido -igar, Esp -igi. "

"-AD- taken from such substantives as F promenade, cannonade, fusillade, is used as in Esp and Ido with verbs and verbal sbs for the repeated or continuous act: frapada beat several times (frapado continued beating, frapo a single blow); kantada; parlada go on talking."

"-AN from L is found in a great many words in Romanic and other languages; it means inhabiting or belonging to a class or party: Roman (Romani, -e, -o, -a), Italian, Amerikan, urban, akademian, senatan, vilajan, partisan, leftano member of the "left" party; further the convenient Esp-Ido formations samlandane fellow-countryman, samreligionano, sampartisane, samideane; also altrilandano, etc."

"Esp and Ido have -ema, coined with some reminiscence of the F verb aimer. "

"This suffix is very convenient with adjectives: beleti pretty, varmeti lukewarm, maladeti poorly; it is used extensively in Ido and Esp with verbs, and -eta is of a certain utility in such verbs as rideta smile, dormieta take a nap, salteta caper, frisk about (whence of course verbal sbs rideto, dormieto, etc.); still the use with verbs should not be exaggerated, and there may in rare cases be a little danger of confusion with the passive participle of verbs in -e. "

"The Ido system of composite numerals (70 sepadek, 17 dekesep) is rather confusing."

"Ido has here the verb mariajar `to marry' with the derivatives mariajo or mariajeso `marriage,' mariajatulo `married man,' mariajatino `married woman,' with the variants mariajitulo, mariajitino; mariajo-festo `wedding'; further, the independent words spozo, spozulo, spozino for husband and wife."

"Even (E): by taking even and self instead of Ido mem (F) and ipse (L) we gain the advantage of having words which are known to several more millions of people and which are unambiguous, while mem is apt to induce all those who know French to use it in the meaning either of N self (F lui-même) or of N sami (F le même)."

"Jus just now, a moment ago (D . . . S, here as in Esp and Ido differentiated from justi, justim)."

"Non may also be used as a prefix, see Prefixes: nonrational irrational; nonnesesarieso (better than Ido neneceseso), etc."

"Ido went far away to Sanskrit to find ka, which, by the way, does not seem to be used in Sanskrit in exactly the same way; it might have been mentioned that Japanese has an interrogative particle ka, only placed at the end of the sentence."

"It may even be used put twice (as Z uses cxu . . . cxu) to denote two alternatives (Ido from L sive . . . sive), as in rendering Goethe's "Er liest es jedem froh und laut, Ob es uns quält, ob es erbaut!" "

"The discrimination and correct use of prepositions is a very important thing in an IAL, and as Ido has contributed much to perfection in this point, I have used most of the Ido prepositions."

"Ido dop is very bad: it is taken from I dopo, which is chiefly temporal, not local as Ido dop."

"Ido has de, but it is confusing to have the three prepositions de, di, da - here supplanted by fro, de, da."

"which is more internationally known than Ido diafan"

"After (E, D in some compounds, Sc efter) is really more international than Ido and Occ pos, an abbreviated L post, which survives only in some compounds like postscriptum."

"Depos in Novial is a separate word (F depuis, S despues, P depois), not as in Ido a compound of de (for which we say fro) and pos, the meaning of which cannot really be inferred from that of the components."

" Ido has L dum like Esp--one of those L words which have not survived in any language."

" This use of an invariable particle seems preferable to the Ido conception of kloko, plural kloki."

"Po (from R Po, Esp, Ido)"

" The form kun (as in Esp Ido) is chosen, because the L kon (con) is found in so many compounds in which it has lost its original meaning"

" Ido has vice, which is used in no language by itself, but is derived ingeniously from words like vice-president--which, however, means a man standing next below the president rather than one who acts instead of him."

"Convention come to play a rôle here as in national languages: for `railway' Esp, Ido and N use fervoyo, fervie, which is modelled on D eisenbahn, F chemin de fer, but might just as well have chosen rel-vie like E."

" Provisionally useful information may be found in Ido dictionaries (best L. H. Dyer's Ido-English Dict, and English-Ido Dict. (I. Pitman and Sons, London, 1924)."

"Ido distinguishes basa (adj) bass (with compounds like basvoco, basreliefo, basklasa) and bazo base, basis, foundation, bottom."

"Better than Ido skopo (from I: E scope does not mean exactly the same thing); ema serves also for Ido vizar."

"FOGLE `bird' D vogel, E fowl (which in seafowl and fowler has the old meaning), Dan fugl, Sw fågel; better than Ido ucelo (I uccello; F oiseau is too far be of use) and Romanal ave, "which can be recognized by everyone" (Guérard), i.e. everyone that knows Latin, for others will rather think of Ave Maria; S P ave is rarer than pájaro, passaro."

"HUSE (or HAUSE) house E D Sc better than dom-, which both Esp, Ido and Occ have inherited from Volapük"

"Ido insulo has wrong accent."

"the Ido distinction justa and yusta is arbitrary"

"Similarly Ido."

"LEFT(I) as Occ from E `left' instead of Ido sinistra (L), which has acquired other meaning."

"Ido creates a totally unnatural word evar `to be so and so old' from L ævum which does not mean that), probably because in F one cannot ask `Combien vieux?' or say `L'enfant n'est vieux que d'une semaine.'"

"OSA `dare,' F oser. Conflict with ose `bone,' F os, I osso, S hueso, is not dangerous, and there is no reason to take osto like Esp and Ido from Greek osteon."

"Thus we distinguish Ido paco, paso, pazo:"

"But for Ido selo (F selle, I S) we must take sadle from E saddle, Sc sad(d)el, D sattel."

"Ido has celar hide "

"The echo-word D summen (Ido zumar) is best made into huma, E hum"

"Esp iri, Ido irar takes the L infinitive ending into the root, which should be avoided"

"VETRE `weather' (D Sc E) on account of the accent better than Ido vetero"


Those quotes are all in the first external link I provided: An International Language, 1928, by Otto Jespersen PhD., Litt.D., LL.D. Nov ialiste 00:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and this is the book by the creator of the language, not an independent source. Has someone reliable and independent (per WP:V) cared to make a serious comparison of Novial and Ido since the creator of the former? Furthermore, this explains mainly how the roots of some words were arbitrarily chosen in both languages, which is quite different from comparative linguistics of e.g. English and France, who have an organic history, not a synthetic one. So, we have the original inventor writing about it, and then we have some editors doing original research, but we don't seem to have any independent sources, and indication that this is a scientific field of study, that this gets discussed anywhere but here. Nope, I still see no reason to keep it... Fram 06:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Check the external links *not* by Jespersen, i.e. independent sources:
The final link among its numerous sources of information has an obituary of Jespersen at "The Times (London)" which mentions his work for Ido and Novial. Henry Jacob places great emphasis on such comparison - read the source. There are plenty of sources on this subject, i.e. the comparison of Ido and Novial. Nov ialiste 09:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The first link is part of the book:OTTO JESPERSEN His Work for an International Auxiliary Language By Henry Jacob, 1943
So your assertion that "we don't seem to have any independent sources, and indication that this is a scientific field of study, that this gets discussed anywhere but here." is clearly false. Nov ialiste 09:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Another indedependent source which compares Novial with Ido and others:

Enkonduka lernolibro de interlingvistiko Vera Barandovská - Frank ISBN 973-95604-6-8 © PDoc. Dr. habil. Vera Barandovská-Frank Unua eldono- presita 1995 che Editura Universitatii, Sibiu-Hermannstadt (RO)

Link: 5. DETALA PREZENTO DE LA PLEJ SUKCESINTAJ PLANLINGVOJ Chapter 5 of a more extensive comparison of IALs (in Esperanto). Scroll down the page to the Ido and Novial sections. Nov ialiste 09:29, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the sources. It seems all very small (for the Ido vs. Novial part), just explaining that Novial is basically a changed version of Ido with some small changes. A paragraph or two in some books about two languages that are spoken by very few (Ido, 200 to 500 speakers) to barely anyone (Novial, less than 50 speakers) and which only gets discussed by a small but dedicated group of enthusiasts (the sources all come from very limited publishers, it seems, so I'm not sure if they are good enough for WP:V) seems to me still a way too small topic for an article, but I guess we'll let other editors decide this. Fram 10:28, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Excuse me, but if you would actually read the sources you might notice that Jacob's 2 books have several chapters concerning Novial and Ido, not a paragraph or 2. Additionally Novial is *not* a changed version of Ido. It is based on Romance and Germanic languages and the most similar previous IAL was Occidental. It differs radically grammatically from Ido, as well as Esperanto. Novial was and is one of the most influential IALs ever. Just because a topic is unfamiliar to you, or you happen to find it uninteresting does not mean that is unencyclopedic, unless Wikipedia is "Encyclopedia for Kiddies and the Poorly Educated". Concerning numbers of speakers I believe that even small or extinct languages are of encyclopedic interest. Maybe you are against AILs, though, in which case I suggest you read the essay "Psychological reaction to Esperanto" by the psychologist Claude Piron. He claims that many have an irrational subconscious fear of constructed languages.Nov ialiste 12:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Please refrain from making personal attacks. As for the importance of Novial: from Ido: "Many other reform projects appeared after Ido: examples such as Occidental and Novial appeared afterwards but have since faded into obscurity." Anyway, this is not the AfD of Novial, which I would firmly oppose, even though it is obscure and hardly spoken anymore, but of the page "Ido and Novial compared". Fram 13:27, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Quote: Anyway, "this is not the AfD of Novial" So why mention: "(Novial, less than 50 speakers)"?
Quote: "from Ido: "Many other reform projects appeared after Ido: examples such as Occidental and Novial appeared afterwards but have since faded into obscurity." " But it is continually mentioned in discussions of different IALS; I regard "faded into obscurity" as weasel words. Also I believe Wikipedia policy is that other Wikipedia articles are not to be regarded as valid sources.Nov ialiste 17:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

You said: "the sources all come from very limited publishers".

ON LANGUAGE MAKING By Henry Jacob A Paper read to the Philological Society Kings College, London, 6th February 1948

S. Auerbach, Pri nonmediati derivatione in li international lingues, in Grammatical Miscellany (Allen & Unwin)

Otto Jespersen, An International Language, London 1928 (Allen & Unwin)

Otto Jespersen, Novial Lexike, London 1930 (Allen & Unwin)

Philological Society Kings College, London and Allen & Unwin are obscure?

To the uneducated populist they might be. Nov ialiste 12:48, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, your rather lenghty citations prove only that Novial is notable - nobody denied it. Bot we are now discussing the notability of two Paternosters written in esoteric constructed laguages. Please try to be more constructive in the discussion and restrain from personal attacks (WP:NPA).--Ioannes Pragensis 15:15, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The sources repeatedy compare Novial with Ido as well as other major IALs which is the point of contention as I understand it: "Ido and Novial compared". Nov ialiste 17:17, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article is still just a stub! We are not discussing "the notability of two paternosters written in esoteric constructed languages" but rather the validity of this article which has just been started, and of which the parallel paternosters will be a small part. Of course a great deal has to be added comparing the grammar, morphology, and so forth. The parallel paternosters are a minimal (but canonical) comparison. I'd like to note that Jespersen was not just some crackpot cooking up his own language in some utopian scheme, but one of the greatest linguists of his time. The dismissal of his work as WP:OR is misguided both because he is no lightweight and because he is not associated with anyone writing the article. Neither is he a contemporary figure. Nor is he the sole source intended for inclusion in this article. OinkOink 16:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Plus the Times newspaper of London in Jespersen's Times' obituary (3rd May, 1943):
"International language was a subject which he passionately advocated, and he helped to form Ido and later invented Novial. It was a source of bitter disappointment to him that the rising tide of nationalism dispelled any immediate hope of their universal adoption."

Link: [4] (was already linked from one of the links given).

But maybe the Times of London is as obscure a publisher as Allen & Unwin, also of London (yes, I'm being sarcastic but somebody earlier in this page said Allen & Unwin is obscure). Nov ialiste 17:30, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Nov ialiste, I share your frustration, but I think you should make sure your heart rate and respiration are down to normal before you post. Despite the evident biases and mulishness, I think it's clear that the deletionists are acting in good faith. Who is not biased and mulish on occasion? Who is free of the tendency to regard that of which we are ignorant as unimportant? Who is not ignorant of most things? And Merry Christmas! OinkOink 18:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I really think people should make some effort to find out about a topic before advocating drastic steps such as deletion. I did take the trouble to quote the sources. False statements were made in spite of the appropriate information given within the sources. It might be necessary to read the sources to know what they contain. I'm ignorant of most things but I refrain from advocating drastic actions on matters about which I am ignorant. Nov ialiste 18:20, 18 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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