Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2009 October 26

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 20:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you came here because http://runecats.foruml.biz/, please note that this is not a majority vote, but instead a discussion among Wikipedia contributors. Wikipedia has policies and guidelines regarding the encyclopedia's content, and consensus (agreement) is gauged based on the merits of the arguments, not by counting votes.

However, you are invited to participate and your opinion is welcome. Remember to assume good faith on the part of others and to sign your posts on this page by adding ~~~~ at the end.

Note: Comments may be tagged as follows: suspected single-purpose accounts: {{subst:spa|username}}; suspected canvassed users: {{subst:canvassed|username}}; accounts blocked for sockpuppetry: {{subst:csm|username}} or {{subst:csp|username}}.

Runecats Explorer

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No notability at all. Also WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS per this and this. SkyBon^{Talk/Contributions} 11:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the article should remain. It is an honest cause to save the earth, as well as an overall useful and easy browser. In time, more an more people will find out about it, there will be more need for the article to remain. It is most definitely notable, and therefore should have an article. Not to mention the article is fully developed, and doesn't seem to be lacking information in any area. I myself am a long-time user of the browser, as well as a member of the community, and from what I've witnessed, Runecats Explorer will sooner or later be ranked up there with Firefox and Chrome. Does that mean those articles were also pending deletion back before they became popular? Even if they were, they most certainly aren't now.
--AMV Ph34r (talk) 21:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Firefox and Chrome are notable. Both have had lots of coverage in the mainstream media. What coverage of RE can you find in the mainstream media? Your opinion that it is better is just that an opinion. Wikipedia requires 3rd party reliable sources to establish notability. No one in the "keep" camp has produced any despite ample opportunity/ noq (talk) 01:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This web browser article has been running for well over a year now, it has references and it appears to be a popular article to contribute. I found out about Runecats Explorer from wikipedia and I am glad I did as I use it as one of my main web browsers now.

I feel this article in relevant and should remain on wikipedia. Wikedit-34 (talk) 15:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not you find the browser useful or not, if it is not notable, it doesn't need an article... Captain n00dle ^T/_C 16:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Wikedit this browser is notable, it was the default browser at my work place, a lot of my friends and family use it, I don't personly use the browser and just because you don't doesn't necessarily make it not notable.

This browser is certainly more notable than a lot of the browsers on wikipedia, lets take a slightly more well known browser such as "AOL Explorer"- this is still on wikipedia, it has the same amount if not less references, i wouldn't really classify that as notable.

There are loads of trident and gecko based browsers on the list of web browsers section which are less notable than RE.

John2232 (talk) 16:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC) — John2232 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Runecats Explorer is notable, it's the first browser to try and reduce the amount of electricity used to save the environment, it was one of the first browser to have full GUI skinning, it is one of the most search aided browsers, It does deserve an article, I and many other edit this article, give information on the newest released, some people give information of the history and much more. This browser isn't a new browser it has been going for years, it has been going before Flock, Chrome etc...

Well I have got to go so that will have to be it for now. Softwareleaksrme (talk) 16:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How can you say the first browser to try and protect our planet isn't notable, the first search engine which did this has a page Blackle.com so why shouldn't the first browser. Think of our planet guys!

From me- Ecofreakoftreeland (talk) 16:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC) — Ecofreakoftreeland (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

I don't usually edit Wikipedia, however when I saw this I was shocked. Why do you want to remove this aritcle?! Runecats Explorer is awesome! 92.3.176.225 (talk) 16:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC) — 92.3.176.225 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Hey.. I did say I don't usually edit Wikipedia... 92.3.176.225 (talk) 17:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am with the crowd here, Runecats Explorer is notable- Runecats Explorer is rated a unconventional alternative to Google Chrome here: http://www.webtlk.com/2008/09/25/the-best-unconventional-alternative-to-google-chrome/

All of the other browsers rated here are all still on wikipedia, why should this be the only one which isn't, I am all for keeping RE on WIkipedia.

Malcommush (talk) 16:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Blogs are not considered reliable sources to establish notability. Can ANYONE provide any reliable third party source that about this browser? All I see is a lot of single purpose accounts saying that they like it. noq (talk) 01:21, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note; the vast majority of keep votes appear to be from socks or SPAs. Two accounts have tried racking up edits outside of Runecats Explorer by adding blank lines to unrelated articles. Hairhorn (talk) 17:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note; HairHorn has undone one members argument

Yes, I rolled back an edit by Softwaregeekland77777 that deleted the above note. Feel free to check the history. Hairhorn (talk) 17:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To make things fair here is the quoted message which was deleted:

I do also believe that RE should remain on the best free encyclopedia (wikipedia), Earlier this year at my college we got given a project on an internet browser (my team got given RE), I used wikipedia for a lot of my information, after having to do research on it I actually tried it and it's actually ok, I still prefer Safari however I certainly believe that RE should remain on wikipedia. Softwaregeekland77777 (talk) 17:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lee-mcmay (talk • contribs)

Now yes I am a fan of RE, however that doesn't mean that I don't count, I also believe that RE should stay for everyones above reasons and more. and HairHorn don't victimize me because I mainly edit Runecats Explorer, Just because I feel passionate about the browser and like to edit it, so don't victimize me like you are trying with other members.

If this article goes I will be lost :(

I hope this case gets resolved soon

Lee-mcmay (talk) 17:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The level of suspect accounts in this debate is far too high. I have opened up a sockpuppet investigation here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wikedit-34. Hairhorn (talk) 17:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Result of investigation here: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Wikedit-34/Archive. Summary: Confirmed and users blocked. noq (talk) 19:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dojan5 (talk) 15:22, 27 October 2009 (GMT+1)

Runecats Explorer have been going for several years now, and has been the first web browser with several utilities that no other web browser have even implemented yet. First of all, Runecats Explorer is being developed without much funding at all, now take me seriously or not, that is irrelevant. Runecats have also developed Runecats Explorer over several years now, it is older than for instance, Google Chrome, I have seen it around for years. I haven't seen any web browser with that many search engines built in and easily accessible from one tool, and there's a lot of notable things which makes this web browser unique. Whether or not one person finds this article irrelevant or not but this web browser does deserve a Wikipedia entry, and I'm baffled that Runecats still doesn't have one. Keep this article, Runecats and Runecats Explorer does deserve it.

Delete - Absolutely no indication of notability. No reviews from major IT news sources despite claims of popularity in UK and USA - and I have never heard of it before today. Article does look to have been subjected to a sustained campaign to make it look as if a lot of people are editing it. noq (talk) 18:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dojan5 (talk) 19:41, 27 October 2009 (GMT+1)

I am very sorry for apparently appearing to be a "sock puppet". I'm merely expressing my opinion. Runecats Explorer have been around for years, although I do not have any evidence for that, but I guess I could dig some up. I'm a friend of the developer, and we've been partners for years.. I'm not a "sock puppet". Please do not come with such absurd statements without at least looking up the IP. I vote for a stay, not only as a friend of the developer, but the fact that this web browser is unique enough to have a Wikipedia article.

As a friend of the developer, have you read WP:COI? And can you show some reliable sources for notability. I have looked but can't find any. noq (talk) 18:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sock puppets?

Everyone except from me, Hairhorn and Captain n00dle seem to be sock puppets of one person (no or almost no contributions outside the article, complete noobs in en-wiki). SkyBon^{Talk/Contributions} 17:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dojan5 (talk) 19:51, 27 October 2009 (GMT+1) I've had this account on Wikipedia since a few years back. Everyone with an account probably doesn't add/edit/contribute to pages, you think? The reason for my activity in THIS article is because this is something I have knowledge about, claiming people to be sock puppets due to them not finding interest in editing other articles is in my personal opinion outright dimwitted. Investigate these people as you feel, but please do investigate BEFORE claiming something you do not have proof of.

Comparing RuneCats Explorer to FireFox

LucarFox 10:31, 27 October 2009 (GMT-5) I was using RE and Comparing it to FF In windows Vista (*yuk*)... RE was using about 50,000 kb less ram than FF. FF was using 5% of my CPU when RE was using 3%. Also RE came with all the plugins I needed to watch youtube videos and play a few java games i found on the google chrome testing thing :P. I tested this with my 2.4 ghz duel core,4gegs of ram, and an nvidia 9600. RE is notably.. well... little bit BETTER than FF! Something to consider if u have really bad ram ;).

another "user" appearing out of nowhere to praise the browser - where are the 3rd party references to back this up? A new user appearing having made no other edits claims it is notable without giving a reference to prove notability. Just because you claim to like it does not make it notable. noq (talk) 01:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

...

Well the only argument for not having this Wikipedia article delete is not enough 3rd party sources, so I decided to look at lots of other web browsers:
Web_visions < that really should be deleted.
Enigma
GreenBrowser
MSN_Explorer
IRider
Teega
TheWorld_Browser
Smart_Bro
WebbIE
Madfox
UltraBrowser

Ok there are just a few examples of some browsers. These are all on wikipedia and have smaller articles than Runecats Explorer and have no references on the article. Please explain why you are not picking on these browsers but are picking on RE which has a bigger article. Softwareleaksrme (talk) 11:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since anyone can make a wikipedia page, the quality or existence of other pages isn't really considered a good argument against deletion. See wp:otherstuffexists. Having a "bigger article" also wildly irrelevant to whether it should stay or not. If you want to nominate any more of these pages for deletion, as you did with Web visions, be prepared to come up with a reason. Hairhorn (talk) 11:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You looked hard at the Teega article - it is nominated for deletion for much the same reasons as this one. But as Hairhorn already indicated whether or not another article exists that does not meet the notability guidelines is irrelevant. This article has to show that it meets them. So show me the third party articles in reliable sources that discuss this "popular" browser. And that means more than a mention of the name or a user comment - I can find those.noq (talk) 13:01, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: It doesn't matter if Firefox is like Runecats, it doesn't matter if it's going to be really popular soon, and it doesn't matter if it saves the Earth, though that's nice. The bottom line is, the subject of the article doesn't meet the corresponding notability guidelines. If the subject of an article doesn't have notability, it can't have an article because no research can be done on it. The article looks really boasting, for lack of a better term, and promotional. These are problems that could potentially be solved with a rewrite. However, a rewrite can't even occur if the subject is not notable enough to have an article in the first place. talking birds 20:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Non-notable IE reskin with very sketchy details and not much of a userbase to speak of. Also makes questionable claims that it uses less energy than other browsers...every browser uses the same amount of energy, period. Most of this stuff about how 'skinning with a black color saves energy on a monitor' I feel is WP:BOLLOCKS and is pretty much lost in the course of average browsing. Nate • (chatter) 00:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:50, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Electrolysis system

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This article/neologism is an attempt to legitimize water-fueled car scams. The subject matter the article deals with already presented on electrolysis of water and oxyhydrogen. OMCV (talk) 00:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - The concerns raised above are true ones. Any relevant, properly sourced info should be merged with electrolysis of water. Airplaneman ^talk 02:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete POV fork of Electrolysis of water. No usable content or history; the FTC link is at Fuel Freedom International, and could probably be added to Water-fuelled car. - 2/0 (cont.) 04:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Agree with the nominator. Have read the article and found its tone unencyclopedic and the content not worthy of merging into anything. The title is not neologism, but refers to a specific design, which is much too specific for WP though, thus redirect is hardly suitable too. Materialscientist (talk) 09:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. A google search for "Electrolysis system" in quotes yields >150,000 pages, and the top hits all seem to be legitimate articles or commercial websites about various specific applied systems. The term is being used, it certainly fits notability among other criteria. If scams or fringe theories call themselves "electrolysis systems" or refer to these, that doesn't invalidate the use of the term for the legitimate systems that do exist and are being called "electrolysis systems". Any concern about tone, style, or scams/fringe theories can be dealt with by editing this article.Fredwerner (talk) 17:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But if we already cover this subject under a slightly different title then that is just an argument for a redirect. Besides, you can't just count Google hits, you have to look at whether they are relevant. There are hits for this but many are not relevant at all. I see a lot of "electrolysis system"s for removing hair, for example. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DanielRigal (talk • contribs) 18:48, 29 October 2009

I agree completely with Daniel.--OMCV (talk) 21:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Partial Merge. I am going to be generous say "merge" because it looks less like a cynical POV fork as one of those things that happens when an inexperienced editor writes a good faith article on an existing subject without realising that it is already covered. There might be a few things here that are worth merging to other articles, if there is RS to support them. I can't see any support for scams here although the tone is poor. --DanielRigal (talk) 18:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To quote the page "But these systems have been tied with scams as well. The reason for the failure of the scams are due to the fact that usually they don't produce enough oxyhydrogen. Even though many universities and private parties have done tests and have argued for years on the results, no official government test data has been released." Basically it says some of these systems are scams are but not all of them so you the consumer should be discerning. Then it goes directly to suggesting that the authorities have never debunked the said scams. Regardless its bad writing even by my standards and weird on the POV but you are probably right about the good faith. Still the content should be removed or moved and the page deleted or redirected.--OMCV (talk) 21:23, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I agree with the nominator's assessment of the article. I do not see any information that is worth merging into the existing articles that better cover this topic. -- Ed (Edgar181) 20:00, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. — The Earwig @ 02:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New Homes Match

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Advert-like article about a website that does not establish notability; refs are all primary. Speedy tag removed by an anon ip, but speedy deletable as either spam or a non-notable website. I42 (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete and Close. The speedy tag should be readded in this case as well as the closing of this case. The-Giant-Andrew (talk) 00:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)User is a recreation of banned user, so this !vote is invalid --ThaddeusB (talk) 01:34, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - No secondary sources found. All Ghits are primary, press releases, advertisements, or social networking sites. Notability not established. Snottywong (talk) 00:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete, unambiguous advertising: New Homes Match's goal is to educate people by eliminating the transparency between buyers and sellers so they can discover the buyers true purchasing power. "New Homes Match creates a place for anyone to come to find exactly what they are looking for and can match anyone up with the perfect builder for their specific desires." In cases as blatant as this, notability issues are a distractiom. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. notability derives from sources not assertions so no sources = non-notable Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence of indebtedness

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Rather than being a general, top-level article about its purported topic, evidence of indebtedness, this article is a personal analysis of a particular problem related to evidence of indebtedness in the United States. WP:No original research. —Largo Plazo (talk) 23:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Needs a comprehensive rewrite. The article itself is currently written terribly, but I think the topic is notable and warrants an article. We just need to find someone else to write the article. Snottywong (talk) 23:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I think you have it backwards. There are a billion articles that would be worthy of articles. They shouldn't be created until someone has a valid one to write, at least a workable stub. The text that's here needs to be deleted, and that would leave an empty article. There is no merit to keeping an article before someone has valid content to provide for it. Of course, you or someone else are welcome to provide such content, but this nomination is based on the current circumstances. —Largo Plazo (talk) 00:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't see "bad editing" as a reason for deletion in WP:DEL#REASON. As a matter of fact, WP policy specifically states that a poorly edited article should be fixed by better editing, not deletion. See WP:ATD#Editing, WP:IMPERFECT, and the second bullet-point under WP:BEFORE. Snottywong (talk) 02:14, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - My reason for nominating this article has nothing to do with bad editing, the article being a stub, or its imperfection. It's about the article not being about what the article claims, by its title, to be about, although it does relate to it. If there weren't already an article with the title Bird and someone created one, but the text focused on problems faced by pet bird owners, it wouldn't be an editing problem, and it wouldn't be a stub. It would be an article that shouldn't be left indefinitely until someone happened to come along and replace the text with a real article about birds. It would be an article that ought to be deleted until someone decided to write a genuine article about birds. Here's the deal: the point of having an article is to allow people to be able to refer to it. If we have articles sitting around for readers to find, only to disappoint them when it turns out they aren't about what the title claims, it doesn't reflect well on Wikipedia, even allowing for imperfection, works in progress, etc. —Largo Plazo (talk) 03:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete - The article does not contain any references whatsoever and the writing is obscure and hard to understand. The subject is of notable standards, I would agree, but it is not practical to keep it in its current state which is likely to remain unedited or unimproved. It makes more sense to delete this one and if someone still sees the importance of the subject than it can be recreated more appropriately. - Regards, Gaelen S.^Talk ^• ^Contribs 00:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This does want a rewrite. It doesn't explain how "evidence of indebtedness" relates to labor law, or explain the significance of the term among promissory notes and other credit instruments. But the subject is worthwhile, and the text here not completely valueless. If I get a chance, I may have a go at this later. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Article has no references Cynof Gavuf 08:39, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: This article needs work, but the topic is important. - Ret.Prof (talk) 00:32, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- If the topic being important was sufficient for keeping an article, we wouldn't have WP:CSD A3, and instead of WP:Articles for creation we would just recommend that people create empty articles. —Largo Plazo (talk) 01:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete. Attack page -- Mufka ^(u) ^(t) ^(c) 10:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jeffrey Getzel

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This article is a biography of an American accountant. The article provides no assertion of notability and reads like a resume. I was unable to find reliable sources indicating the subject's notability. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 23:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, possibly speedy. Not notable, and nothing indicates importance (he is a partner in a small firm, holds some professional certificates, and was pulled over by a police officer once? Seriously...) Singularity42 (talk) 23:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete I don't think this would issue a speedy deletion but the article still has major flaws. 74.227.231.144 (talk) 23:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete consider speedy. no assertion of notability in the article and con't find anything to establish notability. The article is also spammy. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 23:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No reliable sources of any information that would imply notability. The story of getting arrested in the parking lot of Friendly's is priceless though. Almost worth keeping the article. Snottywong (talk) 23:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Indeed. Although the article should be deleted, I'm curious as to what "cause" the cop found to arrest Mr. Getzel and his son. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 00:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy delete. This could have been speedied for notability, but personally I see that police story as an attack. See also Michael Getzel. This is very odd. andy (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I managed to read the Michael Getzel article before an admin deleted it, and I concur that a deletion as a WP:ATP under G10 was absolutely proper. But with this article, I'm not so sure of whether it meets any of the WP:CSD. Unlike the other article, I don't think this one is an attack page. Certain elements of it (all the stuff about NAMBLA, implying that Mr. Getzel is a pedophile; the Friendly's parking lot arrest story) could possibly be construed that way, but I think a G10 speedy would be declined, and rightly so. As for A7, while it is true that there is no assertion of notability (as I mentioned above), I took a path of caution, as new users (like User:Mgetzel in this case) might not know that notability has to be asserted. That was before I saw the Michael Getzel attack page, of course; at this point I would be open to speedy deletion of this page. Anyone here may feel free to tag it thus if he or she so desires. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 00:34, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've done so. It's not entirely an attack but enough of one, given the other rubbish the author has created, to make it highly questionable. And in the case of BLPs that should be enough. andy (talk) 10:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to Dlasthr. Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Raymon Youmaran

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Non-notable, run-of-the-mill criminal. Two of the links don't work, BTW. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. I added a reference and fixed another. In general, if a link is broken, you should try to find a copy at http://www.archive.org/ before giving up. I was able to find a copy of the ninemsn story there. I removed the broken link to http://aussie_news_views.typepad.com/aussie_news_views/2006/06/ramon_youmaran_.html which would not have been a reliable source in any event, unless it was a verbatim reproduction of material from a reliable source. This is not someone who was only in the news for a single event, but for several. Having been on a "most wanted" list distinguishes this person from a run-of-the-mill criminal. -- Eastmain (talk) 00:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions. —Eastmain (talk) 00:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. —Eastmain (talk) 00:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Fails the criteria set out at Wikipedia:Notability (criminal acts)#Perpetrators. WWGB (talk) 00:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and redirect to Dlasthr. There is some coverage about this subject, but not widespread. Location (talk) 01:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Dlasthr. He's not individually notable as the press coverage was minimal, much of it newswires, and was only a brief burst. I would have said delete, but the material here can update the section about him in the gang article. Fences&Windows 03:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Dlasthr (which itself needs fixing). Orderinchaos 21:18, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedily deleted (G12, copyvio) by Ricky81682. Non-admin closure. Deor (talk) 17:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MaC Renegade

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Non-notable 16-year-old performer, no reliable sources can be found via Google, nothing in Gnews, no reliable sources in the article, in fact the only link is to his Myspace page (except for a bogus link to Lupe Fiasco's imdb page which was falsely labeled as an imbd page for MaC Renegade, which I have now removed). This page has been speedy deleted twice, it's time to put this to bed. The user keeps creating autobiography pages for himself and won't stop. Who then was a gentleman? (talk) 23:20, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and salt - The article has been recreated a number of times so should be salted. Aside from everything that WTWAG has already said, I believe there's little doubt that the article is a hoax as well, considering many of the outrageous claims. -- Atama頭 23:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and salt - seems to just keep increasing the (outrageous) claims of notability in each subsequent article without citing a single source. Enough already. Singularity42 (talk) 23:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete - No sources except social networking sites. Not notable. Snottywong (talk) 23:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- Atama頭 23:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and salt – He's got a Myspace page, youtube video, and other self-published sources, so I don't think it's a hoax. I looked but couldn't find any evidence of notability, not even the usual event listings that even non-notable musicians normally have. Maybe he's been mentioned in some local publications with no online presence. Rees11 (talk) 23:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - By "hoax" I don't mean that I believe that he doesn't exist. What I mean is that claims such as "Prominent hip hop mogul DJ Jazzy Jeff describes him as 'The next Fresh Prince'" or being associated with The Roots and Gym Class Heroes approach WP:HOAX territory. -- Atama頭 23:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Aw, bless! The article is written almost entirely in the first person by the subject himself, and is full of red links to related articles I guess he's planning to create if this one were to survive. I kind of hope he does achieve Notability some day. Contains Mild Peril (talk) 00:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and Salt Not notable. Repeated recreation of deleted material. Basket of Puppies 02:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 20:55, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fire World

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Article about an unpublished book, giving no information but the title. Earlier versions said the author "predicts it will be published in 2011"; the article does not now give any date. Per WP:Notability (books)#Not yet published books, "Articles about books that are not yet published are strongly discouraged." This is far too soon for an article. Contested PROD. JohnCD (talk) 23:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete per WP:Notability (books)#Not yet published books, unless Wikipedia has a specific guideline for "Not yet started books".Snottywong (talk) 23:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Notability is not established, no references and no hits from reliable sources. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 23:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom.--Karljoos (talk) 18:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not notable Cynof Gavuf 10:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 20:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bose stereo speakers

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is an AfD for multiple articles, all having to do with specific product lines offered by the Bose Corporation. None of these articles are notable enough to warrant a separate article, and therefore they should be merged into their parent article per Wikipedia policy. There are thousands of companies worldwide that create similar products, and there is no reason that Bose's specific products are more notable than any other company's nearly identical offerings. Additionally, these pages all read like an advertisement. Many of the pages are formatted in a similar way, including show/hide drop-downs that reveal "specifications" about each particular product, which often include the price of the product and its warranty details. Additionally, most of these pages include very long lists of past model numbers (with extremely brief or nonexistent descriptions) which are meaningless to anyone except Bose employees and extremely enthusiastic Bose fans. It's my opinion that most (if not all) of these pages were either created or purposely modified by the same person (or group of people) for the sole purpose of creating a Bose advertisement on WIkipedia. The encyclopedic content of each of these articles usually boils down to a sentence or two. These few sentences could easily be merged (per WP:PRODUCT) into the Bose Corporation article, or even into the article for that particular product type (for instance, Loudspeaker, Headphones, Home Cinema, etc). I would like to add that I personally do not have any ill will for Bose or its products (I actually own several Bose products), I just sincerely believe that these articles do not belong on Wikipedia. Snottywong (talk) 22:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of bundled articles nominated for deletion

Bose stereo speakers

Bose headphones

Previous Bose headphones

Bose computer speakers

Bose Lifestyle Home Entertainment Systems

Bose 3-2-1 Home Entertainment Systems

Bose wave systems

Bose digital music systems

Keep. This company's technology is notable, as evidenced by the references included and by additional references which could be added after a Google News and Google Scholar search. If there is non-encyclopedic information in the article, it can be removed, but the presence of non-encyclopedic information is not in itself reason to delete an article. An article about a company's products need not be an advertisement, particularly when many of the products described in the article are no longer manufactured. -- Eastmain (talk) 00:51, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did you actually look at the references or just count how many references were on the page? 95% of the references on these pages are either primary references (from Bose's website), copies of press releases on non-Bose sites, or user product reviews from sites like cnet.com. These are not reliable, independent, verifiable sources. These articles have received heavy criticism in the past for reading like advertisements, and these "references" were likely added to add a superficial appearance of legitimacy. Don't be tricked. Snottywong (talk) 01:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Having an article on "Bose stereo speakers" is like having an article on "Kenmore microwave ovens" or "Craftsman doorknobs". It's an article on one specific (and rather uninteresting) example of an extremely ubiquitous item. If you allow this article to remain, then you invite similar articles such as "JBL stereo speakers", "EAW stereo speakers", "Yamaha stereo speakers", "Sony stereo speakers", "Pyle stereo speakers", ad infinitum. Also, can you really say that you agree that there should be a "Bose headphones" article and a completely separate "Previous Bose headphones" article? In that case, let's add a few more articles to Wikipedia: "Sennheiser headphones", "Previous Sennheiser headphones", "Sony headphones", "Previous Sony headphones", "AKG headphones", "Previous AKG headphones", etc. And, if we allow "Bose Lifestyle Home Entertainment Systems", well then I'm going to Best Buy and I'm going to write an article on every different model of home entertainment system that they carry. Now do you see why these articles are inappropriate? Snottywong (talk) 01:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, no one is disputing whether the Bose Corporation itself is notable. We're disputing whether or not these individual product lines within the Bose corporation are notable enough to deserve their own articles. Snottywong (talk) 13:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The reference I noticed the most was a scholarly article by an Massachusetts Institute of Technology scientist who happened to be the founder of the Bose company. For me, the question is whether a particular manufacturer did something particularly innovative, rather than something that was obvious to anyone working in the field. I do not pretend to know whether Sennheiser, Sony or AKG headphones or speakers qualify in that regard, but if they do, they are notable. -- Eastmain (talk) 01:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eastmain, if you can find multiple reliable, independent, verifiable sources that prove these particular Bose products were significantly more innovative than anything else out there on the market, then I will agree with you that these articles should stay. I can tell you right now that you won't find these articles. They're inexpensive consumer headphones that you can get at Best Buy or Circuit City. Now, there is a lot of hype out there about some of these products (like the wave radio), but that is primarily a result of Bose's significant PR efforts (which is why every "source" you find is either from a Bose website, a regurgitated Bose ad or press release, or a user product review). Snottywong (talk) 10:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. These articles, all of them, are about product lines that need no more mention than an insertion into the Bose Corporation article a couple of lines saying this product won this award, and that product won that award. Binksternet (talk) 02:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge - none of these are notable by themselves. Can someone please volunteer to merge them into one article? Bearian (talk) 02:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I say that would be the existing Bose Corporation article as opposed to any notional Bose Corporation products article. Binksternet (talk) 04:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am available to merge the notable content of these articles into the Bose Corporation article, should that be the decision of the admin reviewing this case. Snottywong (talk) 13:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep I have done a lot of recent editing to these pages. I have use the Apple pages as my guideline and I have very slowly tried to bring them to that caliber, but real life does get in the way

currently the basis for inclusion in wikipedia is simple If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. So lets see the sources that are currently listed:
Here are some reviews of just some of the products talked about (I didint have time to flesh all of them out...)

List of 100 or so sources

Noise Cancelling Headphones
- google "bose quietcomfort review" - 138,000 hits
  Google Books "bose headphones" Google Books "quietcomfort" cnet australia QC2 pcmag QC3 pcmag QC2 crutchfieldadvisor QC2 thetravelinsider QC1 thetravelinsider QC2 playlistmag QC2 thetechzone QC2 digitaltrends QC2 adrians rojak pot QC1 cnet QC2 cnet QC3 Bose unveils new QuietComfort 15 Headphones Bose Quietly Updates Its QuietComfort Noise-Canceling Headphones (With Ears-On) Bose Improves, Replaces QuietComfort 2 Headphones
Audio Headphones
- google "bose triport review" - 32,400 hits
  cnet TriPort audioreview TriPort driverheaven TriPort
- google "bose in ear review" - 957,000 hits
  Bose TriPort In-Ear Headphones (black) Headphone reviews Bose In-Ear Reviews Bose In-Ear Headphones - At A Glance
Aviation Headphones
- google "bose aviation review" - 40,400 hits
  avweb aviation headset x dvatp Aviation Headset X
Lifestyle
- google "bose lifestyle review" - 173,000 hits
  Google Books "Bose Lifestyle" cnet australia Lifestyle 48 cnet australia Lifestyle 38 pcmag Lifestyle 38 zdnet 48 consumerguide lifestyle 12
321 & CineMate
- google "bose 321 review" - 92,400 hits
  Bose 3-2-1 GS Series II (graphite) Home Theater System reviews C|NET Review - Bose 321 Home Entertainment System Bose 321 GS DVD System Review and User Opinions Bose 321 Home Entertainment System Reviews ZDNet - Bose 3-2-1 GS Series I C|NET Review - Bose 3-2-1 GS Series II C|NET Video Review - Bose 3-2-1 GS Series II ElectronicsMe Review - 321GSX III 321 Series I review 321GS series I review 321 Series II review 321GS series II review 321GS series II review 321GSX review
- google "bose cinemate review" - 27,100 hits
  Bose CineMate Surround Speaker System reviews Bose CineMate Review | ZDNet: Reviews
Wave
- google "bose wave review" - 209,000 hits
  Bose Wave radio CD Reviews Bose Wave Music System review from PC Magazine Bose Wave Music System (platinum white) Review
Acoustimass
- google "bose acoustimass review" - 55,900 hits
  Bose Acoustimass 15 Series II Reviews Bose Acoustimass 16 Series II (black) Surround Speaker System Bose Acoustimass 10 review from TechRadar UK's expert Acoustimass 6 series III review Acoustimass 10 series III review Acoustimass 16 series I review
SoundLink
- google "bose soundlink review" - 38,000 hits
  Bose SoundLink is like their iPod dock with out the dock part Bose SoundLink Wireless Music System streams music from your PC to a portable speaker for $550 Bose SoundLink has Bluetooth inside Bose hops on the wireless streaming bandwagon Bose SoundLink wireless music system goes on sale today 2ND Bose Tabletop System Gets Wireless PC Streaming
Computer Speakers
- google "bose companion review" - 114,00 hits
  pcmag companion 3 compukiss companion 3 about.com companion 3 Bose Computer MusicMonitor Reviewed Bose launches Acoustic Wave Music System II and Companion 5 Bose MusicMonitor Desktop Speakers - Bose - Gizmodo New Bose speakers are even smaller - usatoday
SoundDock
- google "sounddock review" - 158,000 hits
  cnet SoundDock ipoditude SoundDock digitaltrends SoundDock lordpercy SoundDock playlistmag crutchfieldadvisor sounddock zdnet sounddock macworld sounddock engadget sounddock
Stereo Speakers
- google "bose stereo review -wave -sounddock -lifestyle -321 -headphone" - 1,080,000 hits
  Gadget Guy Review of the Bose Wave Music System AES paper "On The Design, Measurement, and Evaluation of Loudspeakers" Stereophile review of the Bose 901

Quotes from Books

Professional Pilot Magazine (2004 Headset Preference Survey, Dec p 80) where the Aviation Headset X was voted #1 by a consumer survey 4 years in a Row from 2000 to 2004
Aviation Headset Series II is introduced in 1995 with improvements for the aviation industry, earning the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association’s (AOPA) “Product of the Year” award.
"next to an elderly woman who plugged her sound-killing Bose headphones into a Sony discman," Mortal Prey by John Sandford;
Critical Conditions by Stephen White but page is restricted and can't be read.
A www.a9.com search on books also turns up this gem: "Grabbing her iPod, she lay down on the bed, put on her Bose headphones, and began listening to Eminem at full volume,"
Jackie Collins, and "search inside this book" for "Bose headphones."
"Ethan was one of Don's pals, with multiple facial piercings and a set of Bose headphones."
Along Came Mary: A Bad Girl Creek Novel by Jo-Ann Mapson.
...of Bose triport headphones. They go on SALE back home for $140 and were on the rack here in the desert for $93. Woohoo! The PX also has an awesome... google books Surviving Twilight: A Soldier's Chronicle of Daily Life in Iraq
Active Sound and Vibration Control by Osman Tokhi and Sandor Veres 2002 (ISBN 0852960387) p. 13
Austen, Ian. "When Headphones Measure Up to the Music." The New York Times, October 31, 2002, p. G4. The competitive product was a Sennheiser HD 497, which "like the Bose Triport... deliberately leaks some frequencies to balance the sound."

What about awards since '99?

1999
- 1999 Best of What's New Award - Popular Science - Lifestyle 40& 50
2000 to 2005 Aviation Headset X was voted #1 by Professional Pilot magazine's headset preference survey five years in a row!
2001
- 2001 Red Dot Award for Product Design - Lifestyle 50
2002
- 2002 "Hi-Fi grand prix award" for Home-Theater-In-a-Box Systems - Lifestyle 50
2003
- 2003 Red Dot Award for product design for 321 series 1
- 2003 AudioVideo International "Hi-Fi Grand Prix Award" - Lifestyle 35 series I
2004
- 2004 Fortune Magazine's Best Products of 2004 - SoundDock series I
- 2004 Number 1 Must have Gadget of 2004 - SoundDock series I
- 2004 Red Dot Award for product design on QuietComfort 2
- 2004 EH Publishing one of the Best Products of the Year for the Lifestyle 48
- 2004 Sound and Vision magazine Reviewer's Choice Award for the Lifestyle 38
2005
- 2005 "Product of the Year" - Electronic House
- 2005 Red Dot award for product design - SoundDock series I
- 2005 Potentials Magazine one of the "Best Products of 2005" - 321GSII
2006
- 2006 MacUser's Audio of the Year award - SoundDock series I
- 2006 QuietComfort 3 were the first headphones to receive a Sound & Vision Editor's Choice award.
- 2006 Potentials Magazine Gold Star Award for the QuietComfort 3
- 2006 AudioVideo International "Hi-Fi Grand Prix Award" for the Lifestyle 48
2007
- 2007 FreeSpace 51 - Consumers Digest Best Buy
- 2007 Red Dot Award for product design on QuietComfort 3]
2008
- Bose Corporation Receives Design Team of the Year Red Dot Award - a title regarded as the highest distinction in the design world.
- 2008 Red Dot Award for product design - SoundDock Portable
- 2008 Red Dot Best of the Best - Lifestyle V30
- 2008 Red Dot Award for Product Design - Lifestyle V30
- 2008 Red Dot Award for product design - On-Ear Headphones

I would assume that if people are making fake products that would also make them notable:

Or what about third parties making accessories specifically for Bose?

Or how about people taking these things apart or adding to them?

25 Currently on wikipedia there are these articles related to Apple Products, (I have included the templates to make my life easier):

{{Apple}}{{Apple celeb}}{{Apple hardware}}{{Apple hardware before 1998}}{{Apple hardware since 1998}}{{Apple Inc. operating systems}}{{Apple printers}}{{Apple software}}{{Apple software on Windows}}{{AppleCEOs}}{{Core Foundation}}{{Final Cut Studio}}{{iLife}}{{iPhone}}{{iPod}}{{Logic Studio}}{{Mac OS}}{{Mac OS History}}{{Mac OS X}}{{Mac OS X DevTools}}{{Mac OS X HTML editors}}{{Mac OS X Server}}{{Mac OS X web browsers}}{{Original Macintosh Design Team}}

I hope that I made my case clear. These subjects are notable and have a right to be included. The articles just need some wikiediting to get them upto the standard that the iPod, Xbox 360, Gdium, DBox2, PlayStation 3, CherryPal, Pioneer BDR-101A, GP2X Wiz, Daewoo Espero, iLiad, Toyota Noah, Neo 1973, Samsung I7500, Buffalo AirStation, Skytone_Alpha-400, Killer NIC and Lexus RX Hybrid has set on Wikipedia :-) -- Phoenix (talk) 05:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Phoenix, I whole-heartedly disagree with your reasoning. I understand you are the primary contributor to this article and that you have put a lot of work into these articles. That, however, doesn't make them notable. I think that you fundamentally misunderstand what a source is. Sourced articles "should be based upon reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Nothing against the sources you've mentioned, but I don't think Professional Pilot Magazine has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. An article in Fortune magazine entitled "26 must-have gadgets" is not a source. It's an advertisement in a magazine posing as an article (similar to the WP pages we're discussing here). And, I'll leave it to you to tell me why Along Came Mary: A Bad Girl Creek Novel by Jo-Ann Mapson is a source for your Bose articles.

None of the links you've provided above are a source. Product reviews prove that the product exists, but that's all they do. They're just advertisements. The one source that comes the closest to being a real source is the Active Sound and Vibration Control by Osman Tokhi and Sandor Veres. However, when you go to page 13, you see that Bose is mentioned in a single sentence, letting us know that Bose offers active headphones for sale. The only thing that source tells us is that Bose sells headphones. It does not prove that Bose's headphones in particular are notable enough to deserve their own WP article. Do Bose headphones deserve a mention on the Bose Corporation article? Absolutely. Their own article? No.

You compare your articles to a long list of articles on Apple products. What you fail to realize is that Apple has a long list of products that are unique and one-of-a-kind. iPod, iPhone, iMac all had no precedent, and were all technological revolutions. This makes them notable. Run-of-the-mill computer speakers or home theater stereo systems are ubiquitous, and therefore are not even close to notable. Also, take a look at the references list on the iPod article. There are almost 100 references, including patents and articles from reliable, third-party sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. They are not simply a long list of product reviews on cnet. Snottywong (talk) 11:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Provide a list of two or three real references from truly independent, reliable, fact-checked, accurate sources of which the primary topic is "Bose computer speakers" or "Bose 3-2-1 Home Entertainment Systems" (or something similar). Ensure that these articles are not just regurgitated Bose PR advertisements in an obscure magazine. Ensure that these articles from reliable sources clearly establish why these products are unique, revolutionary, inspirational, or otherwise notable or significantly different from the vast sea of other companies' computer speaker and home entertainment system offerings. Produce these sources and I will cede my argument. I assert that no such articles exist. The burden of proof is yours. Snottywong (talk) 13:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have little time to comment so I will be brief this time. But is your argument that C|Net is NOT a " reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? If you check them I believe that you will see that it is exactly that! Oh I do understand collapsing some of my convo into a hidden box.... But not everything! Please allow my hours of work to be read by others, thanks! -- Phoenix (talk) 16:02, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting that product reviews on cnet.com establish notability? If that's the case, then I will begin the process of creating a WP article on every product that has a review on cnet. I'm still waiting to see two or three real references that establish the notability of each individual product group that you've created an article for. The incredibly long and borderline disruptive list of irrelevant links you've copied and pasted above don't include any real sources that establish notability, as far as I can tell. Most of the above links establish the fact that the products exist, nothing more. You haven't provided any evidence that these products need more than a brief mention within the Bose Corporation article, with a brief description of what they are and any awards they may have won. Snottywong (talk) 17:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Phoenix79 says "Currently on wikipedia there are these articles related to Apple Products..." but this is absolutely not an argument for keeping any of the Bose product articles, per Wikipedia:Other stuff exists and Wikipedia:Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions. Binksternet (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Bose wave systems at least

As far as the "wave" products go, these are highly notable as one of Bose's flagship products with some "magic" technology. They are widely advertised, high-priced and rarely discussed, leading to a situation where WP readers are in need of encyclopedic coverage of them that objectively and WP:NPOV explains just what it is they're buying.

If there really is no WP:RS coverage of these products, then of course delete them, according to policy. However I find that unbelievable (although it's not my field of knowledge, so I don't know of them myself). Andy Dingley (talk) 10:52, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Andy Dingley, if you don't know whether there is no WP:RS coverage of these products, then it is your responsibility to go find out before voting whether to keep or delete these articles. Snottywong (talk) 11:23, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fortunately we work by consensus, not by voting. Nor do I appreciate your implication that it's suddenly my responsibility to fix any article you've taken a dislike to. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I never said or implied that it's your responsibility to fix any article that I personally dislike. This AfD was started because of a question of whether or not these articles are notable enough to deserve their own articles. There are clear standards on the definition of the word notable. I simply said that anyone who is putting forth an opinion on an AfD should, first of all, fully understand Wikipedia's definition of notability, and second of all, should do the research to ascertain for themselves whether or not the articles are notable according to that definition. Your opinion above is essentially a "gut reaction" as to whether or not the subject is notable, and you even admit that you don't know if there are any reliable sources. No one is disputing that the Bose Corporation is notable. What we're arguing about here is whether not specific product lines within the Bose Corporation are actually notable enough to deserve their own articles. No one is forcing you to vote on AfD's, but if you choose to vote, I'm just asking that you do the work required to come to an informed opinion. Thanks. Snottywong (talk) 12:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The argument that the Wave line is rarely discussed seems to me to be an argument against notability. If the line is rarely discussed, then why bother having an article devoted to it? Binksternet (talk) 13:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. If this AfD concludes that the product pages are to be deleted or merged, then Template:Bose will no longer serve any purpose. In that case, I will propose it for deletion. Binksternet (talk) 13:16, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I wanted to add the template to this AfD, but templates are deleted using a different process (the AfD template doesn't work in a template namespace). If the admin reviewing this case decides to delete or merge these pages, then we should be able to either speedily delete the template (for lack of potential usage) or start a TfD if someone opposes the speedy delete. Snottywong (talk) 13:26, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into the primary Bose Corporation article. --| Uncle Milty | talk | 16:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please be advised that this AFD was recently linked by the nominator at the Wikipedia Review, expressing their concern that this AFD "is being somewhat railroaded by inexperienced WP editors" inviting "the attention of a few experienced editors". For your information. –xeno^talk 17:36, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and I also clearly stated that I was not looking for people who only share my opinion, nor did I even state my opinion or any of the details of what the AfD is about. There is no wrongdoing here per Wikipedia:Canvassing#Friendly_notices and Wikipedia:Publicising_discussions. I feel this discussion could be moved along if a few experienced Wikipedians (which I don't necessarily consider myself one of) would weigh in with logical arguments (for either side of the argument) instead of gut reactions. Snottywong (talk) 17:53, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AFD is intended to gather a random-ish segment of Wikipedian opinions, and inviting a biased audience like those who frequent the Review could negatively affect this process. To offset this, I made a note for the reviewing admin as well as any others who come to this discussion. –xeno^talk 18:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My fault, I apologize. I guess I thought that my message was pretty neutral, and I still don't see how the audience of the Review is biased, but you'd probably know better than I. Sorry about that, this is the first AfD that I've nominated, so I've learned my lesson. Hopefully I didn't corrupt the whole thing. If it means anything, all of the comments above Xeno's comment were posted before this incident. Snottywong (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@ Xeno: I'm not seeing WR reading users as any less random than any other pseudo-random self selected collection of users. So I don't see a big deal here. However I would point out that mentioning something on WR often has effects far different than one could expect or predict. So watch out for that. ++Lar: t/c 18:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For this subject, you're probably right - I would still generally advise against it. And agree about the Law of unintended consequences. –xeno^talk 18:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also far from happy about Snottywong's ATTACK and the comment, "is being somewhat railroaded by inexperienced WP editors." Particularly as it's from someone who still sees AfD as a vote. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relax, Andy. You're arguing semantics now. I obviously don't believe AfD is a vote. My comment to you was that if you are going to "vote" (or "express an opinion" if that makes you happier) on an AfD, a minimum amount of effort should be directed towards research, in order to produce an informed opinion. Yes, I used the word "vote" in my comment, but I'm not under the delusion that an admin is going to disregard everyone's comments and simply numerically tally up the Keeps and the Deletes and see who wins. Snottywong (talk) 02:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about semantics, or your comment to me, it's about you going to an external website and denigrating other WP editors, myself included. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bose technology is sufficiently different than other more generic brands (there are a few other brands for which this is true) that the topic is worthy of coverage. Remove all the product spec sheet data, the warranty info, the pricing, the puffery, and if there's anything left, merge what remains either to a single article, or if not enough remains, to Bose Corporation and leave redirects. ++Lar: t/c 18:19, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lar, Bose technology is not significantly different from other audio technology companies. Imagine what it is that you would put into an article entitled Bose technology... What kinds of things would you put in there? Many companies have earned patents—many companies have one or two novel products. Whatever your answer, it is no reason to have individual Bose product articles. Instead of having a company-wide "technology" that is sprinkled like magic pixie dust on every product, Bose has a whopping marketing department which makes the product seem special and unique.

One thing to note about supposed Bose technology is that long ago they decided to remove standard specifications from their home consumer product literature and manuals. Buy a Bose loudspeaker system for the home and you will not be able to read the accompanying literature to find out its frequency range, its audio power handling ability or its acoustic output power. It is only when you go to www.pro.bose.com that you get product specification sheets like this that show projected performance of the kind required by audio professionals. Go to Google or your favorite search engine and start typing in "no highs no lows" and you'll see revealed in front of your eyes the old audiophile adage used when criticizing Bose. Binksternet (talk) 19:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would support the creation of a Bose Marketing Strategies article... :P Snottywong (talk) 02:44, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nine articles may be too much, but Bose is important enough to have more than one article. Keep at least Bose headphones and Bose stereo speakers. --Apoc2400 (talk) 18:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all for several reasons as outlined by the above !voters but first of all because there's no way this AfD is ever going to lead to any other result than keep or merge. Even if these should fail WP:N they are likely search terms which should be kept as redirects as per the above !votes. Hence, there's no need for this AfD as you don't need AfD to start a merge discussion. Also, canvassing and group-nominating articles that aren't obvious candidates for deletion is not the way to get the outcome you were hoping for. Vyvyan Basterd (talk) 18:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Bye bye AGF. Please, we're not stupid around here. Vyvyan Basterd (talk) 18:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Again, sorry about the canvassing mistake. That was ignorance on my part. I'm not sure what you mean by "Bye Bye AGF", as I think I've made my opinion abundantly clear here, and I assure you I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. But anyway, you can't seriously agree that we need a "Bose headphones" article and a "Previous Bose headphones" article. I think if this AfD resulted in an outcome of "Merge", with a specific instruction that these articles are to be merged into the Bose Corporation article, or into a single Bose Products article, it would serve as an edict with which the major contributors to these articles could not argue, and I think that would be a small success for Wikipedia. Without the AfD, a merge discussion would have almost certainly gone to mediation. You might be right that I should have tried that first, but... here we are. Thanks for the comments. Snottywong (talk) 19:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we don't need a Bose headphones article and a Previous Bose headphones article. However, considering the way you're trying to get these deleted in one go, how do expect any decision to be made that considers these as individual articles? The very best you can hope for here is a "no consensus" unless you're lucky and the closer looks at these as individual articles - which you haven't done with this nom. I'm sympathetic to your concerns about COI and spam but we don't delete articles because the editor(s) have a conflict of interest. We judge the articles individually on their own merits. Vyvyan Basterd (talk) 19:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Right. And further, the articles can be edited to remove problematic content now, while the AfD is still underway. If one removes all the spec sheet data and marketing stuff and there isn't much left, all the more compelling reason to merge. But do the actual merge after the AfD closes, please (...if anyone's thinking of it now). We have had enough problems with that in the past. Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 19:42, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Would it have been better to nominate each article separately? The AfD guidelines seemed to suggest that if you have a bunch of articles that are similar and all suffer from the same issue, that it would be less taxing on the AfD queue to list them bundled. Some of these articles are completely devoid of encyclopedic content (in my opinon), while others have small amounts of valuable information. I could try to delete the non-encyclopedic content from each article, but in some cases that would result in blanking the article or reducing it to a few lines, or at the very least deleting large sections. Would that not be seen as inflammatory or disruptive? I need to be careful now as I have apparently already committed one faux pas. Snottywong (talk) 20:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bold merges and redirects are consistent with the WP:BRD cycle of editing. –xeno^talk 20:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all, and, if required, unbundle and relist. There are sufficient differences for these not to meet WP:Bundle. I think, for example, that Bose wave systems are sufficiently innovative, and covered by reliable sources to be kept. Plenty of independent reviews here for example. Having said all this, the number of articles seem excessive covering the subjects in undue depth. WP:BEFORE requires us to look for alternatives to deletion and a combined page, with much of the detail removed, entitled Bose home audio products, or similar, should be considered. Bridgeplayer (talk) 21:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep the Bose stereo speakers article, since the 901 was an innovative design which was widely covered in numerous audiophile and electronics magazines,and had a bad review in Consumer Reports in 1970 that led to a widely covered libel lawsuit back in the late 1970's which reached the U.S. Supreme Court [2], [3]. (actual library research might be needed to supplement what is indexed online only as snippets), and its successors can be covered in the same article. No opinion on headphones or the other articles. Edison (talk) 22:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that there is notable information about certain products. I disagree that there is enough notable information for an entire article. Something like the couple of sentences that you just posted above could easily be added to the Bose Corporation article (or a "Notable Bose Products" type of article), and it would be a fairly complete treatment of the subject. Snottywong (talk) 23:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep all Very major product groups, all of them having multiple reviews in the appropriate sources. (The headphones do in particular). These are already combined pages--what we try to avoid is articles on each individual; product model. DGG ( talk ) 23:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete these annotated merchandise catalog descriptions. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not an electronics mart. Someone who is really dedicated could try to cull the very most pertinent socially or culturally relevant aspects of these articles and merge them into the Bose Corporation article, where they belong. It is ridiculous to think that tolerance of these crufty marketing pieces will not lead to all sorts of copy-cat advertorials for Herr's pretzel snacks, Herr's tortilla chip snacks, Herr's cheese puff snacks, etc. Please, isn't Herr's Snacks quite enough? Use some sense. Wikipedia: encyclopedia, not direct mail brochure. -- Lowell don't get lunch we'll order pizza (talk) 11:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)— Lowell don't get lunch we'll order pizza (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

SPA notice placed by a supposedly "RETIRED" editor, then replaced by another supposedly "RETIRED" editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orderly Conductor (talk • contribs)

And who are you a sockpuppet of? Vyvyan Basterd (talk) 16:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, let's delete Herr's cheese puff snacks immediately.

Now what do you think about the Bose articles, the one's we're actually discussing? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe he clearly thought the articles were "annotated merchandise catalog descriptions". ~~How long have you been an employee of Bose, Andy?~~ Did this discussion bring you out of retirement, or was it something else? -- Orderly Conductor (talk) 15:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't appreciate your insinuation that I have some bias as a result of working for Bose (I haven't, BTW), and especially not posting personal information to an edit summary. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:20, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge into the main article about the Bose Corporation company. The individual product lines or classes are marginally notable, at best, and the readers are telling us they are about 10 to 14 times more likely to read the article about Bose Corporation than any of these lesser articles about the product lines. Aren't we here to serve the readers? I am especially concerned about dubious "references" such as this one pointing to a .org site with Alexa ___domain rank in the 11,000,000's. If the writer(s) of these so-called encyclopedia articles have to scrape that low in the barrel to come up with references that assert notability, perhaps we need to honestly question the notability. -- Orderly Conductor (talk) 15:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC) — Orderly Conductor (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

SPA notice placed by a supposedly "RETIRED" editor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Orderly Conductor (talk • contribs)

MergeAfter reading the opinions stated above, the original nominator (me) would like to put forth a vote for merging (as opposed to outright deletion). There is a small amount of useful information in these articles, and I believe that a discussion should be started about the best way to merge these articles. I hope that the AfD admin's decision is to merge, and if so, I look forward to working with the major contributors of these articles to reach a consensus on how to merge these articles. Thanks. Snottywong (talk) 18:52, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep all for now, per above comments about innovative speaker design and Bose Wave Radios. However, definitely no prejudice against independent renoms of anything not meeting WP:N later. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:26, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per DGG among others. These all seem to be notable products, and it would be a mess of a page if we tried to shoehorn it into All Bose Products or some such. Bfigura ^(talk) 19:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per DGG, SarekOfVulcan and above all the sheer amount of sources presented. --Cyclopia ^talk 02:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quantity of sources alone (regardless of relevance to the topic, or quality of the source) is not a criteria for notability. Especially when some of the sources are as irrelevant as Along Came Mary: A Bad Girl Creek Novel by Jo-Ann Mapson. (Yes, I'm not joking. That is one of the sources listed in Phoenix's list above. Go and look for yourself. While you're at it, take a look at the rest of the sources. None of them are reliable, independent sources that establish notability. You will, however, actually have to click on Phoenix's links and read the content they refer to in order to come to this conclusion.) SnottyWong talk 02:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

<Sigh> snotty, you don't think that Books are notable? So your argument is Tech Magazines and News articles are notable... Ok thats simple. (God I love google!)

I could go on but frankly I have a life and this has taken up way too much time. -- Phoenix (talk) 05:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, fictional novels are not considered sources for electronics products, even if they have the word "Bose" in them. I'm surprised you need someone to clear that up for you. Anyway, congratulations! You have successfully established notability for "Bose Products". This is what I have been saying all along. There are definitely some articles above that qualify as sources for one particular product (while many of them are still not qualified sources, and I don't have time to go through each and every one to explain why). However, could you produce a similar list of high quality sources for such a narrow topic as "Bose 3-2-1 Home Entertainment Systems" or "Bose Acoustimass blah blah blah"? Unlikely. That is why I believe these articles need to be merged. The articles as they stand now are absolutely written as advertisements, and when the non-encyclopedic content is deleted from them, they will be much shorter, and the argument to merge will become much stronger. SnottyWong talk 11:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I find it interesting that you don't consider items notable if they are talked about in books or if people believe that they are notable enough to create products designed to specifically for the above systems. Weird. As for the Acoustimass page, I just forgot to look, I will later though. The 321 systems are already sourced directly above. [4][5][6] -- Phoenix (talk) 19:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not about what I think is notable or what you think is notable, it's about what Wikipedia thinks is notable. If you can find a Wikipedia policy that states that a product is notable if it gets a mention in a fictional novel, please send me the link. If there is a Wikipedia policy that states that a product is notable if other companies have created products to work along with it, then please send me the link. I have sent you the links numerous times showing you the specific Wikipedia policies that say these articles are not notable. SnottyWong talk 20:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You would benefit from a high-school class in simple logic. The absence of a policy that states "X is notable if Y" when Y is anyway ludicrous does not mean that X is non-notable. Nor does WP have any (AFAIK) policies that state "X is not notable", merely a long list of policies that state "X does not indicate notability by Y" (and do not preclude X demonstrating notability through Z instead). You seem obsessed with proving notability through fictional novels, when no-one else is trying to do so. Nor does a lack of notability for that reason (fictional novels) have any relevance to a separate reason, such as mention in relevant publications for that field (magazines on consumer electronics). Andy Dingley (talk) 20:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Phoenix79, those sources for 321 don't hack it. When a magazine article simply lists a Bose product as being a possible choice out of a number of other products, it doesn't confer notability. Binksternet (talk) 21:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Andy, you would benefit from a course in grammar, because I have no idea what you're talking about. Phoenix listed a fictional novel as one of his "sources" to establish notability, and then defended that source multiple times in the conversations above. That was what I was referring to. Wikipedia has an immense collection of articles that define what is and is not notable, and what is and is not a valid source. I can back up my arguments with specific WP policies which show that Phoenix's sources are not valid, and that these articles are not notable (see the mountains of evidence above). I'm simply demonstrating that Phoenix cannot do the same. If he could, we wouldn't be having this argument. There is no flaw in my logic. If a subject is to be deemed notable, it must fit WP's policies for notability. If a source is to be deemed valid, it must fit WP's policies for sources. All I'm saying is, provide evidence for your argument. Provide the WP policies that prove these articles to be notable, and that prove your sources to be valid. It shouldn't be too difficult to wrap your head around that logic, should it? SnottyWong talk 21:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by I can back up my arguments with specific WP policies which show that Phoenix's sources are not valid, and that these articles are not notable (see the mountains of evidence above). I'm simply demonstrating that Phoenix cannot do the same. If he could, we wouldn't be having this argument. I have quoted WP:N to you and you disagree what is considered independent reliable reviews. But if you want, here is one that gives some examples of what would be notable, two in particular:

Microsoft Word satisfies this criterion because people who are wholly independent of Microsoft have written books about it.
The Oxford Union satisfies this criterion for having two books (by Graham and by Walter) written and published about it.

So if books make a subject notable (hoping to get money by association with that product) wouldn't accessories made specifically for them and fakes to look like them make them notable? But I guess thats not really a nessacary argument any more since you agree with the other sources I have found.

I also believe that someone asked about prices. That is VERY common if you look at other pages on wikipedia, actually other pages go into much more detail that found on the Bose pages PlayStation 3 launch#Release data and pricing Wii launch#Release dates and pricing, Pioneer BDR-101A, Wii#System sales & Lexus RX Hybrid. For gods sake even the Apple Mighty Mouse article talks about how much it costs!!!! -- Phoenix (talk) 07:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Along Came Mary: A Bad Girl Creek Novel by Jo-Ann Mapson (listed as one of your supposed "sources") is hardly a book written about Bose products. Secondly, just because WP says that a product is considered notable if there are independent books written about them does not mean that the same policy is applicable when an independent company offers accessories for those products. I don't know how you can possibly jump to that conclusion. Thirdly, per both WP:NOTDIR (item 5) and WP:OSE, your argument on including prices and warranty information are clearly not valid. The first couple paragraphs of WP:PRODUCT clearly show that these articles need to be merged with their parent article. Per, WP:PRODUCT, "Information on products and services should generally be included in the article on the company itself, unless the company article is so large that this would make the article unwieldy." This is clearly not the case as the Bose Corporation article is actually moderately short.SnottyWong talk 14:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - sources indicate that the topics meet WP:V and WP:N]], which is all that we can ask. Batch nominations are seldom a good idea, particularly in instances like this. I would probably agree with others though that eventually key products and innovations should remain while lesser known ones are grouped together in a "List of..". Having said that, AfD is not cleanup. A couple of mergefrom/mergeto tags post AFD closure should eb sufficient to gain consensus. Gazi moff 10:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Create an article about Bose products and put the most relevant information there. We do not need a catalog of every Bose product ever. Miami33139 (talk) 19:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are only eight articles under discussion here, one for each of several quite separate product categories. Whilst I'd agree with your general point, that's not far from what we already have. There aren't articles on "every Bose product ever". Nor would merging headphones and speakers be appropriate, or would lead to coherent articles. Bose make a wide range of products, we need more than one article to cover them. There may well be scope for some merging between particular articles, should anyone want to discuss that. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I was just browsing randomly and got to this but when I clicked history I realized back in February I added 4 brackets to this page!! 4 bytes. Don't jsut throw that away! A link to my power handling article. Daniel Christensen (talk) 23:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge all of them together, make List of Bose products or something. Please notice that searches in google books pick up all the advertisments in magazines (example). Seriously, product reviews are not exactly reliable sources, and wikipedia is not a list of every model ever manufactured by a company. Get some serious source explaining the impact of Bose products in the market, in society, in the technology of the field, etc. (I suppose that this AfD will go down in flames and that the articles will have to be merged one by one....) --Enric Naval (talk) 00:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Emric, are you actually saying that if the AfD ends in keep, rather than merge, you will go ahead to merge them one at a time anyway? Agreed, merge is a separate editorial decision, but we normally think it wrong to do so in clear violation of a close, i( assuming of course that to be the close). It might indeed be possible to obtain enough consensus for them, but I suspect these merges would find enough opposition that they would not get consensus. (As for the merits of merging, It makes as much sense as merging all the articles of Ford Automobiles. What we want to avoid if making too many articles on closely related individual product models if the product model is not individually very significant--which some but certainly not all of Bose's products may even be, Don't run to the other extreme in lumping, for it will just encourage those who want to split every possible variation separately, as a collector's wiki would do. ` DGG ( talk ) 01:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If the result is Keep or No Consensus, it will likely be as a result of bundling all of the articles into one AfD, and I think it would still be appropriate to attempt to build consensus for merging them one at a time. If that consensus cannot be found through discussions on the article's talk pages, then each article will have to get its own individual AfD. SnottyWong talk 11:50, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

keep All- sources back up pages & show notability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.240.163.221 (talk) 20:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. The trouble with the merge proposal is that there does not appear to be much more worth merging which isn't covered in the article already. Redirect to Brütal Legend#Characters may be done at editorial discretion. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:17, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of characters in Brütal Legend

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Was a PROD, removed with a suggestion of a merge. I would be all for than in normal situations, but in this case, the main article already contains all this information (there's a characters section with voices and a full plot that this duplicates). The few characters not represented (Fletus, etc.) are minor and do not impact the story, and thus need not be mentioned. In general, one-off works like this do not need a separate character list and thus there is no need for this article. MASEM (t) 22:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

With no sources and no notability, I say yes to the deletion. DragonZero (talk · contribs) 23:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I will say this: there actually are probably sources for 50% of this list outside of plot, most discussed in the present Brutal Legend article. In other words I would agree this list would meet notability requirements with some effort to add sources. But I would still think it very redundant and unnecessary to the present article about the game given the limited level of detail we can source in that fashion. Again, I still point to my statement that a list of characters from a single work are rarely appropriate to have if you can build that into the main article. --MASEM (t) 23:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. Muchness (talk) 09:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - important characters should be included within the plot summary of the main article. Marasmusine (talk) 10:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Agreed that notable characters should be in the main article. Additionally this isn't a long-standing series that merits some sort of list. Truthfully it comes down to WP:GAMECRUFT when all these minor characters are listed for a non-series game. --Teancum (talk) 15:15, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
merge I suggested the merge, though with some hesitation as I am aware of the duplication of coverage. I did so, because I think the presentation here was clearer in general, though iI did not match up individual characters. . That's the sort of thing to discuss on the talk page. DGG ( talk ) 23:27, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to the parent article. Edward321 (talk) 00:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Memphis City Sound Chorus

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Unremarkable music organization. Lacks any coverage outside of official website and social networking sites likely created by the organization itself (Facebook, MySpace, etc.) Zero google news or book hits. RadioFan (talk) 22:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Not notable. No real coverage. It appears from their website that they might be having their first show on November 12th. Snottywong (talk) 23:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy delete, no claim to notability made (unless you count being called "extraordinary"). Hairhorn (talk) 03:33, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The deleted versions might have the barest claim to notability, but not much, delete at whatever speed seems best. Hairhorn (talk) 03:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Raymond Hall

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Does not appear notable. Long time pilot, who is now a candidate for federal office. WP:POLITICIAN not met. Author claims when declining PROD that if subject is elected, he will be appointed Minister of Transport - but no reliable sources cite this, and Wikipeida is not a crystal ball. Singularity42 (talk) 22:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete unelected politician with no significant coverage in reliable sources, fails WP:POLITICIAN ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 23:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete WP:POLITICIAN requires that a politician be an elected official in a reasonably high office, or that he/she has "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject of the article." Neither of these are the case. Snottywong (talk) 23:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to Délivrance. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 08:05, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Foni Tu Argile

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PROD removed by creator with no improvement. Fails notability for music singles. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 16:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC) (completing nom for IP editor - Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albums and songs-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge / redirect. Although I completed the nom for 98.248.33.198 (talk · contribs), the usual procedure for nn singles is to merge to the album or artist. Merge what can be sourced to Délivrance, which does appear to be notable based on the reviews in the info box.--Fabrictramp | talk to me 16:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect (or merge if it's worth it to Delivrance) - Fails notability guidelines, hasn't achieved anything particularly notable, Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 19:05, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Délivrance, relevant information is already there so no need to merge. As a note, the song does have some degree of (small "n") notability (as opposed to WP:N in that it was featured on NPRs All Things Considered as the 'song of the day'. I added the referenced info to the song (in the oft-chance it survives) and album pages. As said, it does not meet WP:NSONG in that it hasn't been ranked on national or significant music charts, won significant awards or honors or have been performed independently by several notable artists, bands or groups. J04n(talk page) 02:56, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Most are convinced that the sources are sufficient. Sandstein 09:48, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Argument from fallacy

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The article is clearly not notable. The original creator wrote: 'This fallacy may be known as something else. I just added it because I have heard it used so many times in discussion groups etc.' There are no academic sources. The Fallacy Files gives a fake citation (the index is available online). SquaredCircle (talk) 11:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~Redirect~~ Delete Redirecting to Denying the antecedent is probably just confusing. Favonian (talk) 11:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I have notified Wikipedia:WikiProject_Logic. I notice they have a zoo of requested fallacy articles but I am not sure if this is, or could be, one of them. Please also note that the content is fundamentally different from Denying the antecedent. --Pgallert (talk) 13:53, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to fallacy at least as an interim solution. The point of the article seems to be to assert that it is a fallacy to conclude that a fallacious argument inevitably leads to a false conclusion. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Social science-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 16:31, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -- the "Fallacy fallacy" is a notable fallacy as the original author says. However, it does not really matter what any original creator writes. Have you patroled the new articles? Some are quite raw. Pontiff Greg Bard (talk) 20:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The article's been around since 2005. There are no academic sources. This was something dreamed up in discussion groups. Google searches bring up only mirrors of this article. Which criteria are you using to establish that this is a notable fallacy? SquaredCircle (talk) 21:37, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
~~Keep~~ ~~Delete~~ ~~Hug it and Call it "George"~~ Whatever -- it's possibly the most commonly committed fallacy on the Internet. Dzlk (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:55, 19 October 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Keep - So, this is kind of cool. I can't find any scholarly sources or references to this fallacy, so it was probably originally a non-notable neologism. However, the depth and extent of forum arguments, blogs, and educational courses directly quoting the Wikipedia text across google - and these are manual citations, not mirrors or bot-copies - suggests that the Wikipedia article, deservedly or otherwise, has popularised this term and made it notable. It's a case of an article generating notability for itself; shouldn't have been allowed to happen, but it has, and now the article should be kept. - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:19, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no depth or extent of sources on this topic. It's entirely original research. The majority of hits on Google are mirrors. You're incorrect, friend. SquaredCircle (talk) 06:34, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think your claim that it is original research, and "clearly" not notable is the only original research I see. Google comes up with over 100,000 hits on both "Fallacy fallacy" and "Argumentum ad logicam". A cursory effort would have sufficed to see this. It is also included in the Fallacy Files which is a sufficiently RS as well. I have also added another source as well. What exactly makes your belief so "clear" ? Pontiff Greg Bard (talk) 20:10, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I think SquaredCircle might be referring to the fact that almost all the Ghits use the exact same wording as the Wikipedia article, which suggests that either they're sourcing Wikipedia, or the article text is a copyright violation. - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:31, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, –Juliancolton | ^Talk 22:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Just a different way of explaining an Association fallacy (or perhaps some other form of red herring: "an argument, given in response to another argument, which does not address the original issue"). Seems to me that if A (a false premise) is associated with B, it is guilt by association to assume that B is also false. T34CH (talk) 00:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

keep, but rename There are lots of sources for "Argumentum ad logicam" and "Argument to logic" which are RS.[7][8] "Fallacy fallacy" is also given as an alternative name sometimes, but "argument from fallacy" is not found in RS sources. T34CH (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - used by at least by a few scholarly works. This is an easy rescue. Bearian (talk) 02:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

comment Ooooh, you almost had me change my mind, but it looks like all those sources are popping up because they contain the phrase "to separate argument from fallacy..." For example: "There can be no separation of argument from fallacy by the clear, simple rules of pure, unsophisticated logic, if we deal in such loose and general declamations." (looks quite the opposed of what this article is about). The rest are all about the desirable traits of a lawyer: "... if he can reason with precision, and separate argument from fallacy, by the clear simple rules of unsophisticated logic...". T34CH (talk) 02:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can filter out undesired results on google by using "-" before the key word. For instance "separate". I tried but still no good results. --Deleet (talk) 18:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Google Scholar and Google Book search show enough results. Some lawyers use this term a lot it seems. Article is well done, showing some good examples that very clearly explained the concept. Dream Focus 04:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

reply You gotta read the sources! The scholar ones have NOTHING to do with this term... just happen to be the same words in the same order... nothing to do with this article (bolded because I already pointed that out above). Also, the discussion above indicates that web searches get only non-RS sources (mostly WP mirrors). If you found something different, please tell us so I can change my vote. T34CH (talk) 18:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. The fallacy is discussed by logicians, though not necessarily under that name. I have added a reference to a book published by Springer (which publishes textbooks and academic works) and tightened up the wording a bit. -moritheil^Talk 19:57, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Meets basic sourcing requirements. The logic itself is valid. --Whoosit (talk) 23:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I cannot find a source that defines this fallacy. Most of the Google returns say "separate argument from fallacy" or the like; in other words, this is a combination of words that happens to occur while talking about arguments. It is not, however, a known, capital-F Fallacy. Abductive (reasoning) 01:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did you look at the source in the article? It appears that logicians do not call it by this name, but it is nevertheless a known fallacy. Renaming the article may be appropriate. -moritheil^Talk 03:46, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quoted for reading convenience (don't take my word for it, go to the source and read page XXV):

"It is arguable that Aristotle would have been prepared to extend the death-of-argument 
metaphor to all fallacies.  There is no doubt that Aristotle thinks that fallacies are 
serious mistakes.  This is also my own view, but it is subject to a tautologous seeming 
qualification: Fallacies are serious mistakes when they are indeed fallacies! Whether we 
are thinking of Aristotle's original thirteen or what I call the gang of eighteen, it is 
apparent that rarely are arguments of these various types fallacies just because they are
of that type.  So, for example, when an ad hominem argument or an ad verecundiam argument
is a fallacy, it is not so merely because it has the form of an ad hominem or an
ad verecundiam argument.  That is to say, fallaciousness is not intrinsic to arguments
of these kinds; and the same is true for nearly them all, whether Aristotle's thirteen or
the gang of eighteen.  This is both a setback and an attraction.  The setback is that the
fallacy theorist must be able to specify the varying conditions under which an argument
of a given kind is and is not fallacious.  This is more easily said than done . . . "^[1]

^ "The death of argument: fallacies in agent based reasoning" By John Woods, Springer 2004, p. XXV [1]

-moritheil^Talk 04:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not clear what the appropriate new name would be from the above quote. Abductive (reasoning) 06:29, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as the most descriptive and immediately understood name for this, but be sure the other names (which are roughly equally likely in a Google search) redirect to it. -MBHiii (talk) 19:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete A bogus taxonomy of logic not supported by reliable sources. Colonel Warden (talk) 21:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This is clearly a badly written article, but the concept is notable. The "Fallacy fallacy" has been referred to by numerous reliable sources as other editors here have pointed out. The Squicks (talk) 21:36, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I contacted the author of FallacyFiles and had him recheck his source. He confirmed that it is there. What is the problem? If you have the book, then please scan the relevant pages and upload them somewhere for all to see that the reference is "fake". --Deleet (talk) 18:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was deleted as an article that had been proposed for deletion without challenge for seven days. Skomorokh, barbarian 02:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Power 50

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Clear-cut spam for local newspaper supplement, created by COI editor. Orange Mike | Talk 22:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge with Birmingham Post after significant rewrite to resolve copyright issues. The subject is not notable enough for its own article but warrants inclusion into its parent article. Snottywong (talk) 23:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Stub and merge — Do away with most of it per WP:COPYVIO and WP:NOTWEBHOST. The Post has its own website; let them go use it. Short mention in the Wikipedia article Birmingham Post might be appropriate only if local notability is established by WP:Reliable sources not in conflict of interest with the authors/producers of the list. Otherwise, away with all of it. --Closeapple (talk) 09:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Copyright/Merge Understood there may be copyright issues, which seems like Post and Future have shared ownership. However, information itself is accurate and neutral so suggest a merge with Post page? --Nchiang01 (talk) 11:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. i know even less but i can see a lack of consensus when I see one Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bobby sullivan

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The only claim to fame in this schlock of partially coherent text and red links is having fronted a band that does not appear to be notable, either, ~~and will be AFD'd as well.~~ Notability is asserted, so no speedy (and the hell with prod), so here we are. Google shows enough to indicate that this guy exists, but nothing music-related in Google News, so I end up thinking delete. Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 00:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Nothing in search would support a claim of notibility — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mblumber (talk • contribs)

I'll hold off on AFD'ing Soulside as I guess it satisfies WP:BAND by having releases under a "Major Independent Label" (is Dischord Records "major?" It's "major" enough to have its own category, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything). Alex finds herself awake at night _{(Talk · What keeps her up)} 01:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Text is a bit more coherent now, and more to the point, I hope. This Google News search lists four articles from the Washington Post that establish notability, I believe (and that mention Sullivan as well as Soulside). I have no doubt more could be found; I might go looking later. Drmies (talk) 02:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's also this. Drmies (talk) 02:59, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. -- - 2/0 (cont.) 16:22, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Drmies; meets WP:BAND criterion 1.--Epeefleche (talk) 21:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - This article is about Bobby Sullivan, not Soulside. The band may meet WP:BAND, but that doesn't automatically mean that each member of the band gets their own article. See the following from the bottom of WP:BAND: "Note that members of notable bands are redirected to the band's article, not given individual articles, unless they have demonstrated individual notability for activity independent of the band, such as solo releases. Members of two notable bands are generally notable enough for their own article." Snottywong (talk) 23:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Multiple of those search results seem to be about Seven League Boots (not soulside), suggesting that other band is notable. If that is so then Sullivan would be notable on the member of two notable bands bit. If that is so then trim the unsourced stuff and leave article as a navigational aid for when Seven League Boots is created. If Seven League Boots is not notable this article should be redirected to Soulside. Duffbeerforme (talk) 15:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to their official website, the last (and possibly only) show that "Seven League Boots" played was in May 2006 at a tiny cafe in Chicago. I'm unable to find anything that remotely indicates this band is notable per WP:BAND. SnottyWong talk 16:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I saw Seven League Boots in DC in either the late '80s or very early '90s so, no, it was decidedly not their only show. TheJazzDalek (talk) 14:36, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Coverage of the band appears scant, and in the coverage of Sullivan is even thinner. I agree with Snottywong's analysis. (I was going to close this, but the result seemed unclear, so adding my personal opinion to aid another admin. Don't put too much weight on my opinion though, I know almost nothing about music.) Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Reviewing the argument, the sources in the article, and the level of support for each side (running at 4-2 for deletion), I have found that the deletion side have made a stronger argument, that the sources provided do not provide much coverage of "Bum Reviews with Chester A. Bum" (but rather the parent website), and that the side supporting deletion has considerably more support. Regarding Ryanasaurus0077's argument comparing this to YouTube, this closer remarks that YouTube have completely different inclusion criteria than Wikipedia. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of Bum Reviews with Chester A. Bum episodes

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crufty linkfarm, no list item is notable. lacks significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Duffbeerforme (talk) 11:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I'd go so far as to question the notability of That Guy with the Glasses in the first place (of which this is a subpart). D. J. Cartwright (talk) 14:56, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The series is referenced, if not directly named, by notable sources. If the episode links are deemed a problem, they can be removed without deleting the whole list. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 12:50, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Independent references give only trival comment on the mere existence of Bum Reviews. No independent reference given has reported on any detail of Bum Reviews let alone any individual episode. Look at the referencea provided, where is the coverage of Bum reviews? A search has failed to find significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Duffbeerforme (talk) 16:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It has only been referred to as "other shows" but, as one of only two significant other shows, that is still a reference albeit an indirect reference. My vote stands, for the moment at least. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 18:34, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I say Keep. If this is deleted just for not being notable, it's the same as YouTube deleting the Nostalgia Critic's reviews just because the big studios didn't find Mr. Walker's 5 Second Movies to be the least bit funny and those reviews happened to be on the same channel with the 5 Second Movies. Leave Bum Reviews Alone! --Ryanasaurus0077 (talk) 23:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Note: This debate has been included in the list of Film-related deletion discussions. —PC78 (talk) 17:35, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - I agree with the first poster. Andy120290 (talk) 01:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - If the notability of That Guy with the Glasses is a factor in this, I'd like to point out that it has coverage in multiple notable and reliable sources. (I admit that I'm not sure if the first poster is question here is the original nominator or the first response.) - AdamBMorgan (talk) 13:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My turn to comment - I think the nominator is just PO'd because one more user (me) voted Keep than Delete, and so he asked that it be relisted "so consensus may be reached". I think he really hates That Guy with the Glasses tons. And Duffbeerforme, D.J. Cartwright, and Andy120290, if you're reading this, Leave That Guy Alone! --Ryanasaurus0077 (talk) 20:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ADHOM. No one asked for relisting. Each relister saw the not enogh support yet for deleteion and lack of good reasons to keep, so relisted. This is not a vote, your non-vote nothing more than WP:ILIKEIT with a straw man at it's centre so not much weight is applied to it. ps, what does Britney have to do with That Guy?, pps for AdamBMorgan and maybe D.J. Cartwright, any question of the notability of That Guy with the Glasses is not for this afd to decide, If that question needs to be asked it should be done elsewhere (imo notable so I'm not going to ask that question elsewhere). Duffbeerforme (talk) 12:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I linked to Leave Britney Alone, I was making an allusion to the title by saying "Leave (INSERT NAME HERE) Alone!" --Ryanasaurus0077 (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I never suggested that That Guy with the Glasses should be deleted, but I do support the proposal to delete List of Bum Reviews with Chester A. Bum episodes. Andy120290 (talk) 19:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I support AdamBMorgan's theory that the series is referenced. --Ryanasaurus0077 (talk) 20:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a content fork of an article on a website. Absolutely inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Abductive (reasoning) 01:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - It isn't a content fork, it's an article spinout; it would make the main article about the website too big to include it there. No comment on the appropriateness either way. - AdamBMorgan (talk) 13:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy keep (withdrawn). Good Ol’factory ^(talk) 04:35, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Grand Hotel van Cleef

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I don't know what the notability standards of german Wikipedia is but 7 ghits doesn't quite cover it. Delete non notable. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 22:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be a few more sources coming up from the above tool but when searcihhgn this morning there is a link with 7 results 2 in german. On this one there is 195, however a reader of German might help because it would seem to have heightened it's potential notability. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 22:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment-- I have 31,500 given, and even 194 in news. Even if it were 7, Google search results by themselves aren't grounds for deletion. First article by a new contributor to the English Wikipedia so s/he should have time enough to work on improvements with this discussion open. I removed CSD tag on a subjective call to at least give the editor a fair shot with an article. I will 100% agree that the article stands little chance on its own without sizable improvements, though. To the author, good luck. Datheisen (talk) 22:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep--and possibly in a speedy manner. Look at this, for instance, a full-length article in Der Spiegel. Seriously, I think the nominator should consider adding the study German to their list of activities for the Christmas vacation: look at the results of this Google search. An article in the Financial Times Germany, and article in the Schwabische Zeitung, an article in the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung... Hell, consider withdrawing this: you can't win it. Drmies (talk) 03:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I still don't find it notable, take a look at this search....[[9]]Hell In A Bucket (talk) 03:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing in our notability guidelines to say that they should have been covered in recent news. Look earlier than October 2009 and you'll find that there's more than enough to pass WP:GNG. -SpacemanSpiff 04:08, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well I learned something today. I didn't know the google hits were by date. Consider it wqithdrawn my mistake. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 04:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No worries Hell. Thanks for withdrawing, and thanks to Spiff for their comment. Drmies (talk) 04:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:16, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Remobo

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Non-notable software product. Could not find significant coverage. Article started by SPA. Haakon (talk) 21:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this software. Joe Chill (talk) 23:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I concur. This software appears to still be in beta, which implies that it is quite new. Since very few people are currently using this software, significant coverage from reliable sources cannot be produced. Snottywong (talk) 00:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This does not have any significant references. Miami33139 (talk) 19:38, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. NW (Talk) 01:35, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Zuraidah Alman

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Doesn't satisfy the criteria detailed at WP:CREATIVE (which includes journalists), hasn't been widely cited by peers or successors, no new concepts/techniques/major roles/critical attention or significant contributions. Does not satisfy WP:ENTERTAINER nor WP:BIO either as I see no awards/nominations/large fan base. [10][11][12][13] ƒ(Δ)² 17:16, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. After some reflection, I believe that TV journalists who have appeared prominently on several different programs are notable under criterion 1 of WP:ENTERTAINER, since they are "television personalities" (and perhaps "opinion makers") who have "had significant roles in multiple notable ... television shows." Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 23:52, 4 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note to closing admin, and other participants in the AfD Per discussion here, consensus is that WP:CREATIVE applies here, and not WP:ENTERTAINER as cited above. ƒ(Δ)² 16:30, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Holding a brief discussion on a noticeboard, without having the courtesy to inform anyone who has expressed opinions contrary to yours, does not achieve "consensus' to ignore the text of a guideline. This is the sort of content dispute that ought to be worked out through reasoned discussion in context (that's what the AFD process is for, although it's often hard to tell); and trying to short-circuit it through low profile discussions elsewhere isn't a great display of good faith. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 16:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is clear consensus actually. 6 editors agree ENTERTAINER does not apply there. You're the only one who thinks it does. ƒ(Δ)² 17:08, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a brief, low-profile discussion started and "closed" by you without even having the courtesy to notify me of the potential debate. It ignores the well-establish practice/consensus that more than one notability guideline (eg, WP:PROF, WP:AUTHOR) may apply to an article. And it never addresses what the guideline actually says, particularly with regard to "television personalities" and "opinion makers." Finally, that 6-1 "consensus" counts each of your posts as a separate !vote, which is pretty pathetic.Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 17:34, 7 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's still open, if you wish to comment there. I haven't closed it. I wanted a third opinion; I already know yours. Additionally (I've mentioned this before) I don't think multiple policies apply here at all so well-established practice or not, it doesn't apply here. At all. And finally, I'm not counting each of my own posts as a separate !vote, I'm counting the comments left by other editors in that discussion. Please get your facts straight. Cheers, ƒ(Δ)² 10:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Why do we have all these CTV anchor pages? Do we really need a page for every single CTV anchor? Refer to the WP:NOT section on indiscriminate information. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 03:48, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment, not a !vote. Sometimes things are right in front of your face, but you don't see them soon enough. Category:Television journalists is a subcategory of Category:Television personalities, as shown on this page [14], so that WP:ENTERTAINER expressly applies, so that the claimed failure to meet WP:CREATIVE doesn't control the outcome, and the article should be kept Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 03:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I don't believe news anchors qualify under ENT unless they're doing entertainment news. It doesn't read like she had multiple significant roles, and there are no rs to support anything. Lara 14:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep--Abebenjoe (talk) 15:57, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - Claiming that a news anchor satisfies WP:ENTERTAINER because they've "had significant roles in multiple...television shows" is a stretch. Not notable. Snottywong (talk) 00:11, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Consensus seems to be that the article, even if it just barely meets GNG or BIO, ought to be deleted per the biographies of living persons policy. NW (Talk) 01:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vilayna Lasalle

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Fails WP:ENT. It's been two+ years since the article squeaked by its first AfD and it still doesn't appear the subject has done or will do anything of note. Her IMDb page is a list of bit parts of the "Sexy Girl #2" variety and having been in music videos has not saved similar articles in some recent AfDs I've seen. It looks like the article survived its first AfD based on some very lenient analysis of the refs used, of which the Muscle and Fitness ref is the only one even close to meeting WP:RS, although it's little more than a paragraph and not nearly enough to satisfy significant reliable source coverage guidelines. Mbinebri ^{talk ←} 03:56, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First AfD is here. Mbinebri ^{talk ←} 04:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. No evidence that this person passes WP:BIO or WP:ENTERTAINER. Kevin (talk) 10:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Weak keep She seems to meet WP:BIO through meeting WP:GNG with in-depth interviews in both IGN and Black Star News, and significant coverage in Muscle and Fitness. The subject seems to meet the GNG. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 20:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep In my opinion she passes the "Significant coverage" part of WP:GNG (see links given in the previous comment by MichaelQSchmidt). Optimale ^Gu 11:16, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Promo-page, fails BIO and ENT. Maybe she passes ATHLETE with the Lingerie Bowl being the highest level of competition for Lingerie football? Yea, probably not. Lara 13:35, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per lack of substantial coverage in reliable independent sources. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete-- but this is a challenging case of an AfD, I'll admit. To me, it's kind of like every garage band AfD where someone has 1-2 short info paragraphs in higher-level mass media, but with modeling photos instead of song names elsewhere. Even so, it'd be a challenge to convince me that someone whose notable mentions peak with at: 1) One-off tertiary tv character appearances, and 2) generic music video dancing stand-in is going to stick out much. ...Again, I mean past the modeling pictures. Alas, such a Red Herring here. All the sources given are the same (imdb), are almost 100% informational and not actual "sources", or probably shouldn't be on the page in the first place like the social networking site links. Let the record show that 2 years having passed without additions to this article possible to improve quality is precisely why WP:CRYSTAL is oft mentioned in entertainment-related deletion discussions. Datheisen (talk) 22:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. The assertion that he is "just barely notable" is not enough to outweight the several delete arguments. Kevin (talk) 01:20, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Greg Augustine

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no real notability shown, all movies redlinked (including deleted([15])). production company deleted ([16]). (yes I contributed to one of those AFDs). after spamming articles are deleted we have two sources which provide no coverage past a trivial mention of Augustine's name. Duffbeerforme (talk) 17:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:20, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as just barely notable enough, despite articles about his projects being themselves deleted. Independent films and independent filmmakers will not get the same press coverage as filmmakers touted by big-budget studios. The coverage and notability of his works is his as the creator of those works Greg Augustine films & reviews in On Milwaukee, Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. Its just barely enough... but allowing this one to remain and grow serves the project. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 02:47, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 23:59, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I agree with MichaelQSchmidt; I think Augustine has enough coverage to be considered notable as an independent filmmaker. (I might add that it's particularly difficult to find articles on this Greg Augustine due to extensive trivial coverage of Greg Augustine, the stepson of murdered Nevada State Controller Kathy Augustine. But I digress.) A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 04:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Article as it is doesn't establish notability. Two references, no notable works. Lara 21:15, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - the relevant criteria for filmmakers are at WP:CREATIVE and on any reading of the article Augustine falls far short of meeting any of them. - DustFormsWords (talk) 02:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The relevent criteria is WP:N of which WP:BIO is a subset. He does have notable works that have themselves been the subject of articles in reliable sources. Issues with the quality of the current article are best addressed with cleanup and expansion... not deletion. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 08:31, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - WP:N is the criteria for creating a presumption of notability. As WP:MILL points out, obviously a topic can be well documented in independent sources and yet still not be notable (eg individual residential dwellings, suburban restaurants, etc). WP:CREATIVE provides further guidelines for assessing whether the presumption of notability should be rebutted; the fact he doesn't meet any of those is a strong argument that he's not notable. - DustFormsWords (talk) 20:56, 21 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - I do not belive the the essay WP:Run-of-the-mill applies here, as we're speaking about a person and not an ediface. Yes, thousands of unknown filmmakers create films that no one ever hears about, and yes, those thousands of unknown filmmakers might be considered commonplace... but a filmmaker whose films are publicly screened and whose films receive decent reviews would seem to just tickle over the bar at WP:BIO by squeeking in at WP:GNG with the coverage of his works... barely. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 19:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NW (Talk) 21:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a no consensus, default to delete to me, why is it getting relisted? ++Lar: t/c 21:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't sound that way to me. Unless there is some sort of clear BLP violation, non-consensus AfD's usually default to keep per WP:AFD, How an AfD discussion is closed where it states (until someone decides to change it) "If there has been no obvious consensus to change the status of the article, the person closing the AfD will state No consensus, and the article will be kept. Since the subject of the article has not himself come forward to request a deletion of the article, and since notability per sources has not been 100% disproved, and since there is a no consensus, and the encyclopedic article does not violate policy, a keep is the indication per guideline. That it was relisted seems like no one wishes that debate over at Wikipedia_talk:Deletion_policy#Default_to_delete_for_BLPs to spill over to here. NW is showing wisdom. Regards, Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. do we have any sources that discuss Lizard King as a meme? Apparantly not so by policy the outcome is clear Spartaz ^Humbug! 15:08, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Lizard King (meme)

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Nom for deln for administrative purposes but
No opinion on outcome.
The nom'd article was ProD'ed two years ago with reason

Per WP:NOR, OR and trivia. Flagged for sources and improvement for a while now, sources and improvement have not happened.

Consideration of ProD was cut short by overwriting with a Rdr to Jim Morrison and discarding all content. The very active (tho IMO largely unproductively active) work on the article was silenced with the effect of, but not the process for, an AfD ending in "Del & Rdr w/o Merge".
(My interest is limited to my concern for appropriate process in de-facto deletions, where my attention was drawn to it in creating the needed Dab Lizard King; i retitled the nom'd article bcz of the confusing effect of treating The Lizard King as a title distinct from Lizard King.)
--Jerzy•t 21:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes lack of links to an article is given as a deletion cause. In that context, the Dab entry i just remembered to add probably doesn't count. The JM bio lk'd a reference to the article under consideration here -- removed by the editor who overwrote the article with the Rdr; i have not restored a link from the bio to it. I'll do a survey later today of what articles lk to The Lizard King (now Dab and was Rdr, so low result is likely to prove nothing), and consider a search for lks to JM in context of LK mentions.
--Jerzy•t 21:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There were 3 such articles and a list, and i've described them below in response to the first delete opinion.
  --Jerzy•t 06:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - but re-write extensively. Bearian (talk) 21:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - seems mainly to be a list of times people have used the word 'lizard' followed by the word 'king' (or 'queen'), which does not a meme make. Declan Clam (talk) 22:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The question deserves more careful consideration than that, e.g., i wouldn't be surprised if most of the games are such cases and should be pitched out of this article (and too bad if their enthusiasts welcomed chances to get them mentioned in WP w/o writing an article on each of them) -- tho
  "communing" with the LK, in List of characters in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas#The Truth is clearly about the meme growing out of Morrison's poem, and apparently has linked to this page, appropriately, since before overwrite.
The question of the proportion of irrelevant instances does not weigh in the deletion decision; what we need to know is whether what's left is sufficient for a stub on the meme. As further points bearing on that:
The Healing Game also has an old link that was appropriate and remains so.
The third old lk, from Stephen Nichols, was misdirected, and i've converted it to a red link to the play.
The one in Turbonegro was, FWIW, not mis-targeted to here, but IMO the passage it was in was not germane to the article, and i removed that whole section.

--Jerzy•t 06:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
weak Keep There seem to be a sufficient number of clear examples. DGG ( talk ) 00:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge best examples to Jim Morrison. This is not a meme, but an alter ego, like Slim Shady. Abductive (reasoning) 01:28, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I cannot see any evidence that this has been recognized as a "meme". Bundling together lots of examples of the phrase "Lizard King", and then calling it a "meme", seems like original research by synthesis. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

American Party of Labor

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This is a very new party which does not yet meet the policy Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies). ~YellowFives 20:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

delete - A very new party for which no reliable sources exist to support its existence, much less notability. All references on the page are self-referential from the blog or web site. Both Google and Bing news searches for "American Party of Labor" find no hits. It takes a lot for me to agree that a political party article needs to be deleted, but in this case, I think we've failed to meet even a loose definition of notability. The party has a blog through which it can publicize itself. It doesn't need Wikipedia's help. -Miskaton (talk) 20:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Per nom. No reliable independent sources can be found. Snottywong (talk) 00:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Food Stress Syndrome

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Four of the five references given point to copies of the same press release. There is no evidence of notability, and the concept doesn't even make sense, given the description in the press release, which says that "food stress syndrome" is measured by determining the extent to which people change their eating habits. Since people can choose to eat or avoid certain foods based on new information without incurring stress over it, the explanation doesn't make sense. Further, when I run a Google search for "food stress syndrome" -unprecedented I get only 12 hits, including this article and several others that appear unrelated. Google Books and Google Scholar return nothing. Google News Archive returns one article from Eugene, Oregon, in 1990 that is from a different context. —Largo Plazo (talk) 19:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

delete - per nom, not yet a notable or verifiable phenomenon, and press releases aren't reliable sources. -Miskaton (talk) 20:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. -- —Largo Plazo (talk) 21:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An IP user added the following to the Medicine deletion sorting page, I am moving it here. Fences&Windows 20:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC):[reply]

Food Stress Syndrome is a new phenomenon in our society that have been studied and measured in the course of some 4 surveys in Canada. The first source is a link to the summary of the last survey conducted in 2007 or 2008. A few conferences were given on this topic such as The Canadian Society of Nutrition Management (CSNM) at their annual conference in Montreal, Quebec, May 22-24, 2008 at the Mariott Chateau Champlain. Many other conferences were pronounced in French under the "Syndrome de Stress Alimentaire" title. To ignore this phenomenon is like to ignore the impact of food and nutrition science research on consumers' attitude and behaviour. It would be short sighted to do so! Great concept! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.157.229 (talk • contribs) [17]
- The only phenomenon that the article mentions is that some people avoid food that they are told is bad for them or make a point of eating good they are told is good for them. (1) This is not a "phenomenon" except in the most trivial sense.The scientific term for it is "Duh!" (2) "Stress" is not a term for this. Perhaps there is an actual concept by the name "Food Stress Syndrome", but the concept described in the current article is not that concept, and we don't need to have an article by that name until someone chooses to write an article about the topic that it denotes. —Largo Plazo (talk) 20:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. This is a term coined by Isabelle Paquet of the Canadian commercial nutrition consultants, ISA-Nutrition, and is only used in their press releases. It has no notability. Fences&Windows 20:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete all of it is based on a very few unpublished papers from a commercial firm. This is not significant publication. The ip's argument amounts to: it ought to be notable, and might be some day--which is of course not the same as being notable already. DGG ( talk ) 23:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The article on French Wikipedia is also on its way to deletion. Fences&Windows 04:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I'm intrigued by the new addition to the article, "“Food Stress” is often thought to be an eating disorder". Almost no one's heard of it before; how can it be "often thought to be" anything? —Largo Plazo (talk) 14:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I sure hope I gave enough references! This concept and every study that goes with it came from French Canadian minds. Only a few publications were made in English such as at the annual Congress of the Canadian Society of Nutrition Management (CSNM) held in Montreal in May 2008. For more explanations, please consult the French version of Wikipedia. Sorry for that! On the other hand, how could you explain that this concept made it way around the globe if it was not observed everywhere? Science is barely beginning to study the impact and effects of food on human health. The consequences of those findings are having an impact on the way we eat and this phenomenon now has a name: FSS! It may seem trivial but it made a lot of sense to me and to everybody else to who I talk to! François Houde — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.157.229 (talk • contribs)

Articles by you and your colleagues in promotional trade journals like l'Alimentation is not independent, so cannot be used to show notability. Fences&Windows 01:14, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete "For more explanations, please consult the French version of Wikipedia", 'k [18] doesn't look like they're any more impressed than us. Wikipédia est une encyclopédie, indeed. Can't find any evidence that this is an actual scientific concept, to suggest otherwise borders on spam. I assume there's plenty of other articles where information on consumer behaviour patterns re: food could go - if properly sourced - without going to all the bother of trying to popularise a neologism. Declan Clam (talk) 01:29, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy keep, withdrawn by nominator. Non-deletion remedies can be discussed at the article talk page. The only other delete voter has expressed support for this measure.--Cúchullain ^t/c 17:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cynllibiwg

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The idea of a "kingdom" or "polity" of Cynllibiwg seems to appear only in the works of one individual, British castle enthusiast Paul Remfry, who is by all indications a very nice and knowledgeable bloke, but who hasn't been published in scholarly presses. The only evidence for Cynllibiwg at all are three debatable references in medieval texts, which Remfry draws together with a lot of conjecture. There are no mainstream scholarly sources that mention Cynllibiwg, and Remfry's thesis doesn't appear notable in and of itself. Relevant material already appears at other articles, but a merge or redirect to any of these would not really be appropriate, as the only connection that has been drawn is by Remfry. Cúchullain ^t/c 19:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Wales-related deletion discussions. —Cúchullain ^t/c 19:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: There are a fair number of hits in Gbooks on this word. Is anyone knowledgeable enough on this subject to tell if 1) it's the same Cynllibiwg, and 2) if it's enough coverage to count as notability. Also, whilst lack of coverage certainly isn't good for notability, any coverage that debunks the proposal does count. Chris Neville-Smith (talk) 19:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or perhaps merge if an appropriate target is found. Four books that I can find reference it as a kingdom or dynasty, but it certainly seems like a niche that could be covered by a redirect to an existing article. -Miskaton (talk) 20:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I count 14 hits on Gbooks for Cynllibiwg. Many of these are books directly referencing Renfry's work, which does show that his idea has gotten somewhat more traction in scholarly presses than I'd thought, but I don't think it's enough to demonstrate that his idea is notable enough for its own encyclopedia article. Some of the other hits are editions of the Historia Brittonum or references to it. The Historia does contain a mention of a place called Cinlipiuc, which has been rendered as Cynllibiwg; however, there is no indication that this is a kingdom or polity (it's called simply a regione). If we were to merge or redirect, we would still be putting a whole lot of weight on Remfry's novel theory.--Cúchullain ^t/c 20:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete — The idea of a "kingdom Cynllibiwg" has gotten no traction in any scholarly works that I found (including those in the links given above). There is no mention of anything like it in any scholarly work by any reputable authority of which I am aware, past or present. Building an article on the speculation/conjecture of a layman who has no credentials in the field (such as Remfry) sounds like an expression of a "fringe theory" or "popular history". Cynllibiwg is, however, mentioned in works that do not support the article's thesis. For example, in the 4 books mentioned above by Miskaton:
- "Welsh military institutions" makes a passing reference without citing its source on one page, and in a footnote of another page, where it refers to the "re-establishment of local autonomy in Cynllibiwg", citing Trans. Radnorshire Soc (1995). Nothing suggesting a kingdom.
- "Thirteenth Century England: Proceedings of the Gregynog Conference, 2005" has a footnote that states without authority that Rhwng Gwy a Hafren was originally the 4th kingdom of Wales and was known as Cynllibiwg. It may be someone's OR, but is not traction, and certainly not a scholarly reference on this topic.
- "The Welsh Princes" has a passing reference (without citing sources) to "Hywel ap Goronwy, scion of the house of Cynllibiwg", in a paragraph saying Ystrad Tywi was comprised of the lordships of Cantref Mawr, Bychan, Cydweli and Gower. Nothing suggesting a kingdom.
- "Wales in the Early Middle Ages" by Wendy Davies mentions it as a nondescript region in passing, as was pointed out in the article's talk page quite some time ago. Nothing suggesting a kingdom.

Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 22:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep ~~but modify content~~. There is enough material to justify the existence of an article on this. The problem is the content, and statements like "Cynllibiwg was an area...." We don't know that to be the case. "Cynllibiwg is a name given to an area of Wales which some scholars have suggested ....", etc., and covered around by caveats, would make for a more legitimate (and probably very short) article. But an article of some sort should exist. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have rewritten the article to remove speculation based on Remfry, as well as the material included to counter it. As you can see all that is left is a bald description of the mention in the Historia Brittonum, followed by two scholars' suggestions that words in later English texts may be related. However, the reference in the Red Book of the Exchequer is still sketchy, as I can't tell that the editor actually suggested that there was a connection with Cynllibiwg. If this connection only appears in Remfry's work then that whole couple of sentences will have to go, leaving even less information.--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Much better now. Definite keep. Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The comments by Cúchullain and Notuncurious that Remfry's views are only self-published are incorrect - they have been published in the journal British Archaeology, a reliable source, here, and are cited by the Clwyd-Powys Archaeological Trust (CPAT) here. I'm not suggesting that his statements should be given undue weight, just that they should be given some weight. Ghmyrtle (talk) 19:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, I did not say that, neither here nor in my response to your note on Talk:Cynllibiwg in section "Remfry 2K9".

I said Remfry's credentials in archaeology do not translate out of his area of competence into credentials in other fields such as political history. Also, the Council for British Archaeology publishes scholarly papers on archaeology, which is their area of expertise, and that does not include political history. Your other link with the list of publications is for archaeology, not political history. If they publish a paper in an area out of their area of expertise, such as one on political history (ie, Remfry's), that is not to give the author credit for scholarly publications out of his area of expertise.

One of the characteristics of "fringe" theories (whether or not they have merit) is they pick areas where information is minimal, which ensures that they will not be proven wrong, because if there is no evidence, then there will be no evidence that they are wrong. Also, since they do not have professional credentials to defend, they are free to promulgate virtually any kind of theory. Regards, Notuncurious (talk) 21:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I don't think we have the authority to cherry pick like that. A report published in a reliable source meets criteria for inclusion - we shouldn't be adding our own opinions as to whether it was legitimate for that source to have published it. If other reliable sources criticise Remfry's work, we should of course quote them as well - but I haven't seen anything that does, only the opinions of editors here. Sorry, but they don't count, however well qualified they may be. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:26, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep -- The fact that the subject is referred to scholarly works ought to be sufficient for the retention of the article. The real problem here is the dearth of sources on this part of Wales in the early medieval period. This means that virtually nothing is certainly known of the history of mid-Wales before (say) 1150. Paul Remfry has put forward a theory that Cynllibiwg was a kingdom. Whether or not that is correct will remain a matter of scholarly debate until kingdom come or until at least further sources emerge (which is highly improbable). The sources cited for the name (or versions of it) do exist. When the article was being actively edited I took the time to visit an acedemic library and check the texts. However, precisely where, how big, and what it was cannot be determined. Nevertheless, the referecnes cited to it clearly indicate that it was something. Since it existed, it is proper for it to have an article. A "kingdom" in this context need not mean a sovereign state: in this period, sovereignty was a matter of degree. Welsh kings frequently attended the courts of Saxon rulers, indicating that the Saxon king was their suzerain. Unfortunately I do not have ready access to Trans Radnorshire Soc and am unable to determine what it says. The article needs to set out the facts, consisting of the references to the name. It then needs to set out the opinions of scholars as to what this measn. I see no objection to this being heavily hedged about with caveats, concerning the doubts expressed over it; indeed that would be wholly proper. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC) (note edit conflict with last contribnution).[reply]

I suffered an edit conflict with Cúchullain. His shortening of the article was excessive, and I thus approve of what Ghmyrtle has done. I have slightly altered this further. The fact that Remfry has propounded a view and that other scholars have responded to it justifies having the article. It is unfortuante that Remfry choses to self-publish, not to publish in scholarly journals, but that does not wholly invalidate his work. The final paragraph of the presetn text introduces "Kenthlebiac" (which is I think a rendering of one of the other two quotations). This still needs explanation. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia isn't concerned with whether or not theories are valid, but only that they can be found in reliable sources so that readers can vet them. In this case, Remfry's theory is cited only to his personal website, which in turn cites his own self-published books. I don't like to bring up the FRINGE guideline, as this is certainly not the type of baseless crankery that we so often see in this field, but the guideline's wording is apt: "In order to be notable enough to appear in Wikipedia, an idea should be referenced extensively, and in a serious manner, in at least one major publication, or by a notable group or individual that is independent of the theory." This is not the case for Remfry's thesis, and without that thesis, all that's left are three medieval references which may or may not be to the same thing.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:01, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User Cuchullain has been pursuing a personal crusade against me and other editors wiki's for a while. He tries to make his case seem reasonable and logical, but it is in fact driven by a hard-line revisionist ideology that basically seeks to push the view that nothing we think we know is true. References to Cynllibiwg in Rhyn gwy a Hafren do come up to readers of medieval Welsh history and I think it is reasonable to have a reference to that word, and potential realm, in wikipedia for readers to look up. A brief statement saying what the available academics think this name might refer to is only going to add to the comprehensive content of wikipedia without alarming people like Cuchullain who seem convinced, in some extraordinary conspiratorial paradigm, that there is a plot to 'invent' history. Certainly Welsh polities existed in that territory before the Norman Conquest, archaeological and literal evidence supports that. Cynllibiwg is the name given (based on literal sources) by some academics for that territory.I do not think it is fair or acceptable for Cuchullain - an anonymous user/editor with no qualifications in this matter at all - to call Dr. Remfry a "crank". James Frankcom 16:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Keep in current form. It gives the substance in a NPOV form. It is reasonable to expect someone to look it up here. The ultimate validity is for historians, not us. DGG ( talk ) 00:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After Ghmyrtle's addition of a proper citation for the Remfry material and our rewrite, I would like to withdraw this AfD. We can discuss non-deletion options such as merging or redirecting at the article's talk page.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:55, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support. That sounds practical, and we can move on. Regards, Notuncurious (talk)

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The result was keep. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:21, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bob Lutz (coach)

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High school football coach - famous for winning more games than any other Ohio high school football coach. Fails WP:1E as no other indication of notability. noq (talk) 18:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep news coverage seems substantial enough reason to cover the topic. -Miskaton (talk) 20:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Lutz has received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources, has received numerous awards including being inducted into the National High School Federation Hall of Fame and the Ohio High School Football Coaches Association Hall of Fame, and has broken a significant record in the state of Ohio. This qualifies him as notable under WP:Notability (people). Ithizar (talk) 05:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Per Ithizar. And winning more games than any other Ohio football coach is not WP:1E, it is the sum of WP:Many events which combine to make him notable. Rlendog (talk) 16:40, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Syed Muhammad Shahid

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This person is mentioned a few times in passing, like as a speaker at a seminar.[19] I think these are trivial mentions, though, which do not meet the notability policy. If I have made a mistake in this deletion, please let me know so I can undo it. ~ YellowFives 18:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - I see no claim to notability. -Miskaton (talk) 20:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No indication of notability. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep (NAC) RMHED (talk) 22:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Christina Billotte

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~~utterly~~ possibliy non-notable band member. Declined recent CSD for A7. Recently added references seem to ~~be bogus (see discussion on talk page with link to actual text).~~ to dramatically strengthen the notability of this person. Toddst1 (talk) 18:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I hope you don't delete the Christina Billotte page. I am a huge fan of her guitar playing. She is a very influential musician and contributed greatly to the early Riot Grrrl movement. I don't understand why her page would get deleted. She has been interviewed all over the internet and was even cited as being influential by film director Miranda July in a New York Times interview. She is anything but, "utterly non-notable." She is mentioned in many books about punk rock in Washington DC and the Riot Grrrl movement including "Dance of Days" and "Cinderella's Big Score. She was interviewed in Guitar Player Magazine and has been listed in lists of the 100 Greatest Women Guitarists of All Time. Don't delete her page please!! RiotGrrl91 (talk) 01:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I understand that this AfD has been prompted by a recent edit skirmish on this article by two inexperienced editors, with good faith on both sides, and that the article needs to be better written and sourced. However I do feel that deletion would be a waste of effort, the subject is a sufficiently notable participant in both the riot grrrl and DC punk scenes. I would direct attention to this quote from P.338 of the Dance of Days book - "The energy of Bikini Kill, Bratmobile... ... Christina Billotte,... had dramatically altered the DC punk scene. Indeed RG energy would soon even surface in hardcore..." . Another notable mention would be that she is included in the Venus Zine - an authoritative source on such matters - list of 46 Greatest Female Guitarists of All Time [20]. Lastly, as a member of four notable groups (current Afd's notwithstanding) she passes WP:Music easily. Wwwhatsup (talk) 05:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've incorporated the above into a rewrite of the article. Wwwhatsup (talk) 08:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Notable per above discussion sourced content. ChildofMidnight (talk) 16:49, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Billotte is a member of multiple notable bands (add Casual Dots to the list [21]). Duffbeerforme (talk) 16:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DeleteNon-notable band member, information is incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucysim (talk • contribs) 00:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which information is incorrect? Wwwhatsup (talk) 03:48, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That editor has a personal connection to the artist and wants the information removed. Unfortunately, the editor has since been blocked for disruption (removing cited information about the artist) and is unable to answer your question.

FWIW, I think we can close this as a resounding keep. Toddst1 (talk) 04:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reference quoted is from 2004. It doesn't say anything definitive about her current place of residence. And Lucysim seems quite insistent that it is incorrect. I'd personally opine that it should be left out. If an article materializes on Casual Dots, then their dispersal in that period might be material, otherwise not. Wwwhatsup (talk) 06:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep — this article has seen substantial referencing improvements since the AfD was initiated. I no longer have any doubts about notability here, and echo Toddst1's comment above. — The Earwig @ 04:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:26, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giorgi Chirgadze

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Article is about non-notable soccer player, no relevant college soccer experience, no first team appearances, fails WP:GNG, WP:ATH JonBroxton (talk) 18:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Giant Snowman 18:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - player fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:GNG. Recreate in the future if & when any of these concerns are met. Giant Snowman 18:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The official website confirms he has yet toplay a competitive match for the first team. This article can be easily recreated if and when he does so. Bettia (talk) 20:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Per nom. GauchoDude (talk) 06:22, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Recreate if and when he makes his debut Spiderone 09:55, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - fails both WP:ATH and WP:GNG, Recreate if plays first team game Steve-Ho (talk) 12:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete until he makes a first-team appearance. Then he will pass WP:ATH and gain notability. Cocytus [»talk«] 22:48, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. If no improvement occurs, a second deletion discussion some months hence will more likely than not result in deletion, I think. Sandstein 09:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner in popular culture

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This "article" is really nothing but a giant trivia section. It's full of original research. No reliable third-party sources, just a long list of instances where in the opinion of Wikipedia editors some work of fiction quoted or otherwise referenced this work. *** Crotalus *** 17:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete; combines the worst of trivia and original research. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 17:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I agree that it is a terrible article, full of original research, unsourced, and written like a giant trivia section. But the fact remains that this is a classic work of literature that has had a substantial impact on popular culture. I don't know the remedy for dealing with a terrible article on a notable subject, but I don't believe that deletion is the one to use. I'd suggest turning this into a stub, placing the deleted text on a subpage, and starting from scratch.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom, don't even bother restarting from scratch, it's unsalvageable. No secondary sources, nothing more than WP:SYN. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 18:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It is not trivia, for when notable cultural artifacts, are used as significant elements in notable fiction and other notable cultural phenomena, then a discussion of them is encyclopedic. All that is necessary is to show that the activity or artifact is used in a significant way, and this can be appropriately referenced to the work directly. These references are needed, but they can be supplied. Any of the items that are not significant can be removed after discussion of the talk page of the article. Such a list is not indiscriminate, for it discriminates in 3 ways: the artifact, the notable work, and the significant use. Indiscriminate would be including every appearance whatsoever in any fictional work, however non-notable the work. That is not the case here. I do not see the problem with WP:V, for the items are attributable--if it is challenged that the artifact is not in the work mentioned, that does have to be demonstrated. I do not see the problem with LIST, because more than the bare facts are given. I do not see problems with OR, because it can be sourced in detail from the correct source, the works themselves.

I would suggest possibly rewriting to separate examples where only the name was used. I would possibly move items where only the concept of albatross was used to a separate article. But in many of the present ones the culture the relationship is obvious & obviously significant on the face of it. All it needs is expansion--its a pretty good start. As explicit refs can probably be given for almost all of them, I do not see on what basis anyone could say it is unsalvageable. DGG ( talk ) 18:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Into the main article on the Ancient Mariner, and please cut out a lot of trivia such as brief jokey references from "Dad's Army" and "Samurai Jack." Warrah (talk) 18:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and clean up. A rewrite would be good, but this a notable aspect to the poem. Merge is also an option worth considering, but weight might be a problem. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - can be rescued easily, this is a notable pop-culture fixture. Bearian (talk) 02:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Showing how a notable work has influenced other notable works throughout the ages, is something the Wikipedia needs. Dream Focus 14:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If this does get kept (as I suspect it will), I think it definitely needs a great deal of cleanup and pruning; I don't mind entries about reinterpretations of the work but one-off mentions (which make up the majority of the Television and film) section need to be killed. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 14:38, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, sourcing is all primary. The albatross symbol has it's own article. Abductive (reasoning) 01:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. There is consensus here that the sources uncovered do not establish the notability of the topic. Skomorokh, barbarian 02:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

StrongLifts

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Reason the page should be deleted Not notable. Per WP:GNG, topic has not received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject in order to satisfy the inclusion criteria for a stand-alone article. If anything this should be given a paragraph in the Strength Training article. Yankees76 (talk) 17:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. per nom. --Quarte t 19:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The general 5x5 program is notable and should have its own article, and there are of plenty sources for this Weight training methodology. here here here here here here here here here and here Portillo (talk) 04:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It should be noted that links to blogs, forums and other original research are not considered reliable sources by Wikipedia standards, and that some of those links don't even mention StrongLifts. This AFD is not about the "5x5" program.--Yankees76 (talk) 15:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: What i mean is that if the article is deleted, do you think that an article about the general 5x5 program is a notable enough weight training methodology? Portillo (talk) 21:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - not notable enough to merit an article. Depth of coverage and quality of the sources provided is questionable and borders on advertising. Has zero Google news hits [22]--Komrade Kiev (talk) 12:43, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This fails to meet any of our criteria. Miami33139 (talk) 19:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, no substantive sources can be found. Abductive (reasoning) 01:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy redirect to Cottage pie. This needn't have come here; we have a very simple way with obvious cases like this--a redirect to the correct title, which in this case is Cottage pie DGG ( talk ) 17:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shepards pie

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Misspelling, already covered in Shepherd's pie Ferrantino (talk) 17:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:27, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Klaus-Haus

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Preliminary search finds not reliable sources for this event. Fails WP:NOTE. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 16:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Insufficiant notability to meet guidelines. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:37, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. This is, I believe, a strong candidate for a G3 Vandalism Speedy Deletion, but I'll hold off per WP:AGF. No sources, no media coverage, and no notability are apparent, though. UltraExactZZ ^Claims~ Evidence 14:58, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I was thinking the same thing about speedying it, but figured to err' on the side of caution and get consensus, and like you said, assume good faith. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 15:03, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Concur with above, no sources, could be a hoax or just useless web flufery, but has no value to Wikipedia. Bonewah (talk) 15:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

John & Edward (band)

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Fails WP:BAND; being on a television talent show does not make a group notable. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 16:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Not notable at present. Might be reinstated later on if they have their independent records or they win the X Factor werldwayd (talk) 16:57, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, not notable. AnemoneProjectors (talk) 18:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - If they win the X-Factor, or become successful in the future, maybe. Not notable at present, Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 20:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - agree with Spongefrog. Also fails NPOV and unreferenced (although they could be fixed in an instant). Cargoking talk 11:34, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seavus project viewer

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Contested prod. No assertion of notability; references are trivial mentions. Haakon (talk) 16:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Software-related deletion discussions. Haakon (talk) 16:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this software. Joe Chill (talk) 18:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. I proposed deletion on this. Companion piece to deleted article; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Seavus Project Evolution. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hungry: A Mother and Daughter Fight Anorexia

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Sending this to AfD on behalf of an IP who is unable to create the necessary page. See WP:ANI. Enter CambridgeBayWeather, waits for audience applause, not a sausage 15:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Subject notable enough to be included on Do You Know, ~~and no reason given for deletion~~.SPNic (talk) 17:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep sources provided easily show the article passes the general notability guidelines. --kelapstick (talk) 18:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Passes WP:BK. Joe Chill (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Easily passes notability guidelines. Simply looking at the sources provided in the article provides evidence of that. A Stop at Willoughby (talk) 20:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The sources clearly demonstrate notability. Cunard (talk) 21:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep No problem passing WP:BK. Warrah (talk) 02:51, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep I agree. The news articles used as references in the article, prove its notable. Dream Focus 16:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

William Markrois

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Minimally coherent, completely unsourced, highly dubious article about a supposed entertainer with only 61 Ghits, mainly wikipedia mirrors, and no GNews hits. This could be a hoax, a badly executed try at self-promotion, or a page intended to ridicule someone, but it's certainly not an encyclopedic article. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete Borderline hoax, messy unsourced terrible article about a non-notale musician. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 18:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alan Dick

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Runs afoul of wp:BLP1E "If reliable sources cover the person only in the context of a particular event, and if that person otherwise remains, or is likely to remain, low profile, then a separate biography is unlikely to be warranted. " Bonewah (talk) 14:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, his job wasn't notable, and his death wasn't particularly notable either. Hairhorn (talk) 16:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Per WP:BLP1E. Joe Chill (talk) 20:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Notability not established per nom. WWGB (talk) 00:03, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Snow (attorney)

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Marginaly notable living person. If he passes GNG, he does it by a small hair. Hipocrite (talk) 14:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or merge His position is notable and worth including in encyclopedia. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I agree with nom that he is marginally notable. But marginally notable is still notable. The article cites articles about him in the New York Times, ITWire, and CNet. It's a close call, but I say keep this one. Snottywong (talk) 00:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Seems to pass notability standards by a reasonable margin. Enough substantial reliable sources to establish significance in my opinion. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 02:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, enough coverage in independent reliable secondary sources. Cirt (talk) 02:12, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: coverage in independent reliable secondary sources. - Ret.Prof (talk) 22:32, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
(Disclosure: I created this article) Chair of a notable charity suggests he is worthy of inclusion to me. Majorly talk 02:51, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - not sure why he is not notable. Raysonho (talk) 03:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. The consensus here is that there is insufficient reliable coverage for notability. The encyclopaedia cannot responsibly include articles whose content is substantially unverifiable; should anyone want to include this content on another wiki of a different scope, please feel free to ask. Skomorokh, barbarian 02:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let's play

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The article is extensive but it has no actual sources about LPs itself, only links to forums and lists of LPs. Technically this would fall under the A7 speedy deletion criterion due to lack of sources asserting notability, but I'm not entirely sure that they couldn't be found in this case. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 13:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep or possibly a merge somewhere. The forums indicate there are possibly references available,and even the nominator says there might be. Did he even look?--I admit it's not an very obvious gsearch, but perhaps there are some hints to finding them in the forums--I particularly note [23] -- which might even be considered close to a RS. . It would in no case have been an A7, not necessarily being web content--and I don't think A7 would apply to a class of web content in any case. There are many other meanings of the phrase, so a qualifier is needed for the article title. DGG ( talk ) 17:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

as possibly relevant sources I list from Google books [24], [25] [26] , DGG ( talk ) 17:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do we consider TVTropes a reliable source now? I thought we didn't consider any wikilike anything near a RS. The three books you mention are all programming books that have nothing to do with LPs. I did look and wasn't able to find anything via a gsearch; gnews turns up irrelevant results as well. Searching ("let's play" video game) reduces it to relevant stuff, but nothing that's anywhere near a reliable source. I'm not saying that I'm positiv eno source exists, only that any such source isn't immediately obvious. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 17:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

a programming book on programming video games would be exactly the right type of source--it would discuss using this technique. The closest I have found so far is [27], but the full text is not available to me immediately. DGG ( talk ) 18:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Technique? What do LPs have to do with programming beyond the fact that they can involve commentary on coding errors in a game? Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 00:54, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. I don't see any independent reliable sources that have discussed these presentations. Contrary to the above comments, "Let's plays" appear to be presented from the player's point of view, not the programmer's, so I wouldn't expect to find them covered in a book about programming video games. The phrase "let's play" is so common in the English language that I will have to leave it to the supporters of this article to find the sources. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 04:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Subject is borderline notable, and the sources scarce. Taking a look at the possible sources DGG presented as compared to the article content...I would be very shocked. It doesn't take much more than even a second to realize that what the books are documenting and what the article are about are 2 mutually exclusive topics. If this were to be kept, I would probably suggest it being reduced to the stub status it recently had until some reliable sources can by found. (The stub status seems to have been reverted by some anons.) I would also probably heeding the advice of Neo in this case.--Toffile (talk) 03:59, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The Let's Play scene is growing rapidly from its start just a year or two ago. Its significantly different from the old style speedruns which have their own article and a lot of well knock internet personalities such as Spoony and Linkara are doing them because of their growing popularity. The term is obscure and people need a reliable source for information on what exactly a Let's Play is so they aren't left getting some slanted point of view from a private web site. I was going to add this article until I saw someone had beat me to it and I WILL re-add it at some point in the future so we can all go through this again and again and again and again. Sturmovik (talk) 02:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The problem is that there are no good sources for this article. If you can find them, it'll get kept. Veinor ^{(talk to me)} 05:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep or Merge I am part of a university gaming club and we often do "Let's Play"s at club meetings. I didn't know what they were at first and I think having a Wikipedia article or section on them is important for others seeking information. --Patrick Lucas (talk) 02:12, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep This article has expanded from humble beginnings and has begun to accumulate sources, it shouldn't just be discarded because some people don't find it notable yet. BOARshevik (talk) 02:14, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- My concern is not so much that the topic is not notable, but that it isn't sourced. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 19:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - an article cannot be built on information from forums and YouTube channels. It doesn't matter how popular Lets Plays are if no reliable publications have written about them. My own magazine search hasn't unearthed anything that can be used for verifiability, let alone notability (except for an unrelated game series by Deep Silver for the DS) Marasmusine (talk) 18:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. There are no reliable sources for the subject, which is grounds for deletion according to policy. Remember that AfD is for discussing whether an article should be deleted according to Wikipedia's policies, and as such reasons like "We need an article about X!" and "I like it!" hold no weight here. If you can prove based on policy that the article merits inclusion more than deletion, that will be taken into consideration. Heavyweight Gamer (talk) 02:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clara Rosemarda

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Unreferenced WP:BLP, Notability not asserted - the Sonoma County Artists Awards Program in Literary Arts isn't a notable award of itself. MuffledThud (talk) 13:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. —MuffledThud (talk) 13:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —MuffledThud (talk) 13:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
delete, searches produce no evidence of notability. Was prodded but the article creator removed that. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. GS turns up almost nothing – the one interesting hit is for this book, but when you check, you find the subject is not actually the author, but rather is one name in a long list of people that are acknowledged "for general support and assistance". None of the other claims are sourced. Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 15:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Delete NN Josh Parris 01:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The top WorldCat holding is a relatively low 112 for the book Steeped in the world of tea. Otherwise, nothing that could be used to justify keeping under WP:PROF.--Eric Yurken (talk) 00:56, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 23:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Parody Album: Chris Moyles

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Article claims to be about a yet-to-be-released album, so per WP:CRYSTAL it shouldn't be here. Another problem is that a sizable part of it is lifted verbatim from Chris Moyles#Parody songs, so it's not like new and relevant information is being added to Wikipedia. Favonian (talk) 12:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as per nom G~~ain~~Line ♠ _♥ 13:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Vastly improved and notability asserted G~~ain~~Line ♠ _♥ 13:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete yet to be released, doubt it will be notable when it is. Declan Clam (talk) 16:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This is about a yet-to-be-released album, which has already been recorded, is to be released on 23 November[28], and is already listed in Play.com, Amazon [29], HMV, etc. for pre-order. It seems inconceivable that this will not receive significant coverage in the coming weeks, and there is already coverage out there - [30], [31], [32], [33], [34].--Michig (talk) 07:21, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
keep. A solution would be do delete the section of the Chris moyles article about parody songs. Fodge15 (talk) 17:02, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
keep. Article is notable, but requires a cleanup. Riksweeney (talk) 15:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article cleaned up and all unneccesary material regarding parody songs removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stuart1000 (talk • contribs) 17:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Good work! Looks like a consensus is building to keep the article, and that's fine with me. Favonian (talk) 17:51, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep definately keep - going to be released. No reason to be deleted, just another Moyles hater probably. Jonesy702 (talk) 18:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. NW (Talk) 22:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Smartsheet

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Contested proposed deletion. Obvious advertising for a non-notable business or website.

Obvious advertising:

It allows owners of information to comprehensively involve contributors through authenticated access, publicly-accessible published sheets, or via embeddable survey forms[2]. Functionality is focused on the ability to organize, share, and update tasks and files
Any template can be easily filled in to allow for instant business management and collaboration

The proposed deletion contester's words are also telling: Smartsheet is an excellent source for crowd sourcing. A new way to get work to people in a hurry. If you need to stay in contact with clients on a daily basis then come to Smartsheet. It will keep you abreast of your clients situations by allowing you to be able to get your work done wherever and whenever you need to have it finished.....

Note also that this is yet another page that sprung complete with software infobox, at its inception.[35] I suspect paid insertion by a publicist, of a type we ought to be aware of.

Given that this is blatant spam, notability is a side issue and should not be lawyered about. The text we have really makes no claim to minimal importance in text either. "References" given are to press releases announcing financing, dead links to stories without this business's name in the title, and petty awards from blogs you've never heard of. There are some news links discoverable; but even if this business or website is notable, this advertising text is entirely unacceptable and ought to be deleted if it remains in its current form. Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 11:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Definately notable 1. The article might need cleanup to remove any promotional material but that isn't a reason to delete. Personally I don't think it reads like a blatant advert. --Pontificalibus (talk) 12:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have added some references and removed all the spam I discovered on the talk page.--Pontificalibus (talk) 14:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Seattle Times and USA today are sufficient sources for notability. spam can be dealt with by editing. The motive for insertion is irrelevant. DGG ( talk ) 19:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Per the Seattle Times and USA Today links plus this and this. Joe Chill (talk) 20:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. NW (Talk) 20:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Loren_Feldman

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puff piece. notability issues. self-promotion/advertisement.

Delete - As of yet I don't think the subject reaches the general notability guideline and as of yet fails to meet WP:ANYBIO. Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 14:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Not notable.--JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and likely rollback to previous version. Numerous reliable sources exist and unfortunately this deletion effort seems tied to the main contributor rather than the article subject. -- Banjeboi 23:42, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete For reasons stated above. --216.244.65.73 (talk) 02:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep The CNet news bit covers him well, they having someone even interview the guy in person, there video of that hosted on their site. [36] Dream Focus 06:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete - fails WP:GNG and most of the refs point to blogs. The cnet reference is the most impressive, but I don't think this is enough to lift the subject into notability - Alison ^❤ 22:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
weak delete Doesn't seem to meet WP:BIO. The sourcing is just below enough. I'd be willing to change my mind if more independent reliable sources were presented. JoshuaZ (talk) 22:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Doesn't meet general notability guideline or WP:ANYBIO. --64.120.158.21 (talk) 03:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Wikipedia is not a place for self-promotion. --98.143.144.94 (talk) 05:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Numerous reliable sources exist. - Ret.Prof (talk) 09:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete This doesn't meet general notability guideline/WP:ANYBIO. Regarding the google search results Ret.Prof links to, they don't quite yield "many reliable sources" as you suggest. This article seems to be a self-promotion/advertisement. --96.31.87.237 (talk) 17:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - There seems to be an unusually high level of contributions to this discussion from single purpose, possibly dynamic IP addresses. Jeffrey Mall (talk • contribs) - 17:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 00:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shannon McCann

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Self-promotion. It can be tempting to write about yourself or projects in which you have a strong personal involvement. However, do remember that the standards for encyclopedic articles apply to such pages just like any other, including the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view. Creating overly abundant links and references to autobiographical articles is unacceptable. See Wikipedia:Autobiography, Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. Harry R. M. Pitts (talk) 11:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fails WP:ATHLETE. --Pontificalibus (talk) 11:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete fails WP:ATHLETE, has not competed at the highest amateur level and could not find any significant coverage in reliable sources. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 11:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per above. Jusda fax 14:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:ATHLETE.JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am concerned that a new user with no prior edits proposes deletion. ClemMcGann (talk) 12:13, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I am concerned that the creator of this article assumes their achievements are noteworthy when in reality are insignifcant. SeepingGine (talk) 13:04, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 00:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gentoo Penguin habitat and skin covering

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Has been speedied twice already as test page, user repeatedly recreates. Third effort had speedy G4 declined as it had not been through a discussion. OK, lets have that discussion. Already an article at Gentoo Penguin which covers pretty much content of this, and is not so big a separate unreferenced sub-article is needed. Was at one point redirected to Gentoo Penguin, but in reality that just leaves a redirect which no-one is likely to type. Maybe a couple of words could be re-used, but mostly exists already, so deletion preferred over merge and redirect. ClubOranje^T 11:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Per nom, a suitable page already exists, nothing good to merge and pointless to redirect. --Pontificalibus (talk) 11:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as someone who put it up for speedy. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 20:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - duplicates existing article. . . Wayne Riddock (talk) 23:13, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - nothing to merge, nothing to keep. Maias (talk) 23:57, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 00:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Randy Plaice

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Lack of notability Miyagawa (talk) 09:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also found Randy plaice Miyagawa (talk) 09:51, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Not notable actor, fails WP:ENTERTAINER. --Vejvančický (talk) 10:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no notability asserted, pretty much an extra in one film. non notable poet as well.--ClubOranje^T 11:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, not notable. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: He has only appeared in commercials and as a film extra. Fails WP:ENT. Joe Chill (talk) 22:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Should someone nominate that picture too? Not sure how images for deletion works. Shadowjams (talk) 07:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 00:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AdU Network

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Non-notable organization. Zero gnews coverage, both current and archive. 7 07:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

KeepThis appears to be a very large organization with quite a unique idea to it. I checked them out and they have over 100 students working for them. The network of business schools that they have is unheard of. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.225.128.173 (talk) 10:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC) — 69.225.128.173 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Delete - no evidence of coverage in WP:RS. Fails WP:ORG. Nancy ^talk 10:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, I can't find any coverage in reliable sources to establish notability. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 10:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete I find i am in agreement with 69.225.128.173 that this business is a rather unique idea. However, per WP:ORG, no truer statement has been made that "The network of business schools that they have is unheard of." This evidenced by the google news search results provided by User:7 on the article's talk page. [37] Should this change in the future i welcome the re-creation of this article. delirious & lost ☯ ^TALK 13:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. This is a national program that gives brands a relevant presence on America's campuses by allowing students to create the campaigns for them, in other words, an internship program for the advertising business. Does not seem to be a promising encyclopedia subject, and no notability is shown. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. NW (Talk) 20:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tony Wang

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The references in this aritlce are quite problematic. Some of them are largely insignificant as far as Wikipedia is concerned, and others fall into what I would call "false referencing". References along the lines of: John was highly acclaimed for his work on Blah [1]. Where [1] is a citation to Johns work on Blah, without supported that he was acclaimed. Following is a run down of the problems with each reference:

1. This is supposed to reference the interview, but instead is about the interviewer (a false reference)
2. This is just Tony making a post in a comments section; it doesn't reference anything
3. Same as above
4. This is sort of a false reference. It is supposed to support that this is his best known work, but it doesn't support that it is known at all, merely that it exists
5. This is the best reference so far, but the coverage is minimal
6. This reference would classify as trivial coverage. Tony is mentioned, but only in passing as a member of a list. There is no actual discussion of him
7. Same as the first reference
8. This is the same as the second reference
9. This is the same as the third reference
10. Tony writes articles here. A demonstration the suitibility of an article requires articles about Tony, not articles by Tony. The link also doesn't clearly support the statement it's attached to
11. See the first part of my objection to the previous source
12. Google searches don't qualify as sources.
13. Same problem as two references above
14. Same problem as two references above
15. This doesn't reference the statement given; sort of like the first reference, it's about one person in the interview, but not the actual interview
16. This would qualify as a trivial entry in a list
17. As with a few of the above, this is a collection of articles by Tony. While it references the statement given, it doesn't demonstrate the suitibility of the article

In conclusion, even if many of the false reference issues above were fixed, they still fail to show Tony's notability, as all but one of those regard his own work. So while the references do a very good job of demonstrating that Tony exists, they do nothing to demonstrate that he is notable. Someguy1221 (talk) 06:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note for number 2 and 3, the article awarding the top 20 links award does include the3st, which is the blog Tony runs. (Although Tony did comment as well).Zelysion (talk) 07:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)zelysion[reply]

Delete This article was speedied once and the author asked for my comments about the draft which s/he has in their userspace. My reply on my talk page apply here as well. This page just simply isn't ready for the mainspace yet. TN X Man 11:39, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Google Blog Search? Since when does that become a WP:RS or enforce WP:N? And it also appears that much of the refs are the result of WP:BOMBARD. And since the image provided (of a non-notable individual) is marked as "own work", one can argue that someone is writing on behalf of an acquaintance, which violates WP:COI. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete – I also tried to help author with the sandbox article, but he did not improved the article and moved it to the mainspace. Author has had numerous chances to improve this, but either has not read his messages or refuses to believe this article is not ready for the mainspace. ttonyb (talk) 15:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete with haste per Ttonyb1, sources don't cut it. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 18:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete sources do not establish notability per nom. Reads like a vanity piece (anything that says "Hailing from..." just doesn't cut it for me). -- Gogo Dodo (talk) 19:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete For the Reasons above and, upon talks with some of the people involved with the creation of this a few of them didn't think this was a good idea to start with along with the main idea of the wiki page being created and most of the work was done by tony wang himself (my understanding is that you should not create a wiki page for your self.) SomeoneE1se (talk) 02:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. NW (Talk) 20:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Operation Irene

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Is stated to be a "major... airsoft event", but I can't find coverage outside of forums and picture hosts. Master of Puppets 06:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The only source provided is a message board. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 06:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete no reliable sources discuss this event, nothing to establish notability. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 10:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: WP:SPS. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Not enough indication of notability. So far we can be reasonably sure it exists, but nothing more. Delete, Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 12:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was speedy delete. Speedy, hoax or non-notable. tedder (talk) 06:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Byrom

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Not a notable person Stevied019 (talk) 04:45, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Almost certainly a hoax. -- Eastmain (talk) 05:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. NW (Talk) 20:54, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Falk, Musicians

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Fails WP:BAND; has not even released an album yet. Cheers! Scapler (talk) 04:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Apparently written by a member of the band, see FalkMusic (talk · contribs), so WP:COI too. That, and WP:BAND, Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 09:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: WP:COI. MySpace. What more is there to argue？ -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete Not quite there yet, does assert notability as youngest act signed to Warner Chappell, and Bigger Than Me does have one other notable act signed. However, these girls aren't there yet. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 18:18, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep per unanimity among respondents. Skomorokh, barbarian 02:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Danita Angell

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Model with no significant coverage, therefore failing the GNG; no indication subject meets any specialized guideline. No likelihood of expansion of article beyond stub, only 5 GNews hits, mostly photo captions. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 03:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep By all accounts, ten years ago she was at the top of the profession. She was chosen by Victoria's Secret to be one of their annual fashion show models. As such her press would be in fashion magazines and not in the commonly used media outlets that AFDers check. She has been a covergirl for elite fashion magazines such as Vogue Italia. She was an elite model and notability is not temporary.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. I could cite numerous modelling mentions for appearances in things like The New York Times magazine. This would be analogous to documenting the an NFL offensive lineman is on the team although no interesting articles are written about him. His notability would stem from being an elite athlete. Hers stems from having been an elite supermodel for a brief period. She reached the highest level in her profession and is notable for that reason alone.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"I could cite" isn't a legitimate argument; if you can cite the evidence, you should. And the claim that appearing once in a Victoria's Secret fashion show and appearing on one magazine cover constitutes "the highest level in her profession" is unsupported nonsense -- especially since the Victoria's Secret claim isn't even supported by the cited reference. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 18:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are missing the point. I considered noting that she appeared in the NYT magazine during the {{prod}}, but considered that information unencyclopedic. Also, one year in the VS fashion show is the highest level in her field. It would be like talking analogous to someone who was on an NFL roster for one year in many regards.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 20:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

H.W. does have a point. The subject's participation in the VSFS is not supported by the FMD link. Is there anything else to show that she was in it? Mbinebri ^{talk ←} 23:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep: The article doesn't demonstrate meeting coverage criteria (hence the "weak" part), but Tony makes a good analogy with the offensive linemen—they get a free pass for having reached the highest level of a notable profession, and having been in the VSFS (easily the most-watched fashion shows ever put on) is enough for me to extend the same free pass, as much as I hate doing that. Mbinebri ^{talk ←} 17:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. I agree with the other commenters that she seems to have achieved notability in the 1990s. --JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was 01:38, 28 October 2009 Tnxman307 (talk | contribs) deleted "Lucia Gorea" ‎ (G7: One author who has requested deletion or blanked the page) ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 15:41, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lucia Gorea

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Contested prod of yet another boring resume. People should learn that we're not an employment agency or in the publicity business — particularly those about whom no multiple, independent, in-depth material has been written. Biruitorul ^Talk 03:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Unsourced, and never will be. Resumes belong on www.jobseek.com, not on Wikipedia. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. —98.212.63.90 (talk) 00:48, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article may well deserve deletion and it does sound rather self-promotional, especially the Biography section. I have deprodded it since the Literary Prizes section lists a bunch of prizes. They are also listed at her faculty page at the Atlantic International University[38]. I don't know anything about poetry and don't know if any of these prizes are significant or in fact if they can be verified. Hopefully someone knowledgeable can take a look. 98.212.63.90 (talk) 01:06, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. The "publishers" of the books listed are all vanity presses, see e.g. this info on AuthorHouse or this website, which lists both AuthorHouse and Llumina Press specifically as vanities. Atlantic International University is listed as a diploma mill by WP (see also List of unaccredited institutions of higher learning). Awards and most of the other things listed may be similarly dubious. This is an uncontroversial delete. Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 02:14, 27 October 2009 (UTC).[reply]
Delete Awful self-promotion, not an ounce of it encyclopedic or notable. Agricola's post above mine does an excellent job of putting the matter to rest - really, what more could be said? Dahn (talk) 04:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there is a bit more. The subject's website indicates her "PhD" is actually from Atlantic International University. Also, the "poetry awards" come predominantly from what might best be described as "poetry award mills" (I kid you not – didn't know these existed). See for example the consumer alerts on The Famous Poets' Society, which awarded Gorea "The Shakespeare Trophy" and The International Library of Poetry, which awarded her the "International Poetry of Merit Award" and the "Editor’s Choice Award". It appears that little, if anything here is legit. Probably could raise this to Snow Delete. Respectfully, Agricola44 (talk) 04:18, 27 October 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Delete per Agricola44's thorough debunking of the claims of notability in the article. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, per Agricola44. 98.212.63.90 (talk) 10:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Per Agricola44. Passes neither WP:PROF nor WP:BIO.--Eric Yurken (talk) 00:51, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. — The Earwig @ 01:47, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Christine Svendsen

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Fails WP:ENT. Promo page. No significance as a model and only one role (in a movie with no Wiki page) as an actress. Mbinebri ^{talk ←} 03:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete; one of the innumerable actors and actresses who got a page on the IMDb and think that makes them notable enough for Wikipedia. (Yeah, she does have an IMDB page, but with only one credit, an obscure movie which does not itself appear to be notable either.) No evidence of notability; there are literally hundreds of thousands of actors and actresses at similar levels in their careers, and they don't all need Wikipedia entries. —Smeazel (talk) 03:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Notability not established; even the only reference given on the page seems to be about some movie and not about her (if she's in the movie, it doesn't seem to say so on that page). Having a page at IMDb doesn't connote notability. --NellieBly (talk) 03:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Comment. The IMDb page for the movie lists her in third position in the cast listings. -- Eastmain (talk) 04:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete as not notable under the name Christine Svendsen. The article tells how she changed to it in order to improve her career... then gives three redlinked films as a result of that namechange. It can be sourced that she was in Black Devil Doll (which IS getting coverage), but she is not found in Night of the Demons, and the film Zombie Temp Agency still seems to be in pre-production. Sorry. Not enough yet to be found on this actress that would allow the article to meet WP:BLP. MichaelQSchmidt (talk) 06:55, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep page person is an up and coming model with movies with credit debuting—Preceding unsigned comment added by Jbtemping (talk • contribs) — Jbtemping (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

With respects... "up and coming" is the problem. Once she is "here and arrived", the article might be re-written and returned. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 23:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 23:54, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Edward Young Clark

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Just dont see how this article presents notability. Torkmann (talk) 03:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Delete: No notability. --Pyho ^T / _C 03:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. This Google News archive search presents several references from reliable sources. -- Eastmain (talk) 04:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep, the notability is in the first sentence, and there are many more references in the news to supplement this stub. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 04:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Not only is this plainly notable, but its nomination for deletion saps what little inclination I have left to contribute to an endeavour in which the inclusion of material such as this is disputed while the "ninth episode of the thirteenth season of the animated television series South Park" is considered notable enough for detailed treatment. --Paularblaster (talk) 10:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Paularblaster, there's room for both. Let the TV fans work on their stuff, it doesn't interfere with serious content. The article would be more obviously notable with some considerable expansion. DGG ( talk ) 02:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not saying the TV stuff should be deleted; but when the people who devote their time to it decide that the serious stuff should be deleted, it just wastes everybody else's time. --Paularblaster (talk) 08:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep-- In line of sentiments of Paularblaster. It makes me cry knowing I'll get yelled at for things like removing a link to someone's myspace blog that was being used as a sole reference on a article they created about themselves, and that at the same time I still have to watch for these things. Some credit is due to the nomination though. For the first time ever I cannot in any way whatsoever relate the philosophies in WP:GARAGE or WP:DUCK to any aspect of a discussion. ♪ DaTheisen (talk) 15:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 00:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Taylor- Model / Actress

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Unreferenced, non-notable per WP:BIO and WP:ENT, no significant coverage online from reliable sources per WP:RS, does not appear in cast lists online for film mentioned. MuffledThud (talk) 03:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per nom - fails all relevant notability criteria. Youtube video provided does nothing to establish notability. 7 03:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete for lack of sourcing that establishes notability. Bfigura ^(talk) 03:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The fact that she doesn't appear on the cast list may indicate she was an extra... but frankly, even if she was on the cast list, having a minor part in one movie still wouldn't be nearly enough to make her notable. And neither is a not apparently noteworthy appearance in a commercial or a music video. —Smeazel (talk) 03:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per all above. Seems a clear-cut case. Jusda fax 05:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this actress. Joe Chill (talk) 20:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kevin (talk) 21:34, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fardad Farahzad

AfDs for this article:

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2nd nom. Article does not assert notability in that it does not assert why the subject is important or otherwise worthy of note. Being a member of the media does not give automatic qualification and any source from the BBC are not independent as he works there. No sources are given that establish notability with the possible exception of the interview, which is in Farsi(?) so I cannot personally confirm. Declined speedy repost/notability. See also previous AfD. Cquan ^{(after the beep...)} 21:05, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I declined the repost speedy delete because it was not the same as the earlier posting. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 21:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There are many independent sources , included wall street journal and fox news showing his picture and crediting him as bbc persian TV presenter. Check google search result for Fardad Farahzad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Graph wiki2009 (talk • contribs) 01:30, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The wall street journal article, so far as what is available online, does not even mention him. Anything from the BBC is not independent. Cquan ^{(after the beep...)} 01:50, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dear Cquan on Wall Street Journal page you can clearly see his picture along with the the description , If you can not find it you may press Ctrl + F in your browser and then enter his name " Fardad Farahzad" , I'm sure you will find it.There are about 25000 search result for him too , you may find more pictures and description about him on Fox , BBC , Daily News , AP and more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Graph wiki2009 (talk • contribs) 20:49, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:00, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The WSJ article is available by subscription only and the publicly available text does not mention him. Every hit on google I have examined has been a trivial listing of him as a reporter for BBC (largely cloned listings as well) and are not sources "about where he is the subject". Fame does not constitute notability, see WP:FAME and WP:NOTE. Cquan ^{(after the beep...)} 07:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment In respect to WSJ , there is no subscription required to read the article. The article is written by By AARON O. PATRICK and near 3rd paragraph WSJ used Fardad Farahzad's photo along with clear description. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124657126904288627.html .

As he is an Iranian figure most of the articles are in farsi however there are about 25000 in english as well , as we know google will not list too many cloned articles in its search result. Graph wiki2009 02:25, 19 October 2009 (GMT)

Comment The number of articles and provided links shows the accuracy. 19:23, 21 October 2009 (BST) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atlasiali (talk • contribs)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 02:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment. At this point there is not enough participation to determine consensus and since the article is a BLP, I'm relisting a second time instead of closing "no consensus". --Ron Ritzman (talk) 03:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Fardad Farahzad reports the news, he doesn't make the news. As far as I can see he is just another journo doing his job. I don't see anything where HE is the subject being reported on--ClubOranje^T 11:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Insufficient evidence of notability. JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was redirect to El Gran Senor. There is consensus here that this topic is not independently notable, given the apparent paucity of reliable coverage and the norm that notability is not contagious. If anyone has an issue with redirecting rather than deleting, please feel free to address it on my talkpage. Skomorokh, barbarian 01:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sex Appeal (horse)

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Unsourced and of questionable notability. Contested PROD. — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 04:43, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Animals ought to be under A7 (one might argue they are). No suggestion of notability, aside from inherited (literally), and notability is not inherited. Shadowjams (talk) 06:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- They are, since July 2009, apparently --- {{db-animal}} (see discussion). cab (talk) 08:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently I missed that. Shadowjams (talk) 14:42, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So did I and Eeekster. But we're here now. So I suggest deletion for not only the above, but compliance with {{db-animal}}. — Jeff G. (talk|contribs) 15:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment declined speedy, as daughter and mother of notable horses. Would prefer to see how AfD plays out.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 16:39, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I don't mind removing the CSD in this case since the AfD's well underway, yet suggestions of facts that wouldn't satisfy notability themselves are not indications of notability. I agree that preferring the AfD play out is acceptable here because people have already dedicated time to it, and the underlying page isn't advertising/vanity, attack, or a (c) vio. Shadowjams (talk) 18:24, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in the case of pedigreed race or show horses, heredity does contribute to notability -- or so the people in that field of work seem to think, judging by the prices they pay and the extensive records they keep. DGG ( talk ) 06:05, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Perhaps the pedigree suggests an indication of future notability, and insofar as that's the case for racehorses I modify my previous comment. But I don't see any reliable sources indicating this horse's notability. I think as a threshold issue too, that those sources should at least have some connection to non-racing sources. Shadowjams (talk) 06:13, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 02:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep Given that she never raced [39] Sex Appeal is less noteable than her sire and foal. As heredity is considered a factor of notability for racehorses and Buckpasser and El Gran Senor have significantly more filled out articles with less references an article of at least stub class could be created for Sex Appeal by someone more more familiar with this subset of the project. With the type of results that google returns it makes finding sources for this article rather trying. delirious & lost ☯ ^TALK 14:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The reasoning behind this keep leans strongly towards indicating that there aren't reliable sources, and that the horse is not notable.

1) The horse has not raced; 2) no one has found a non-database source, let alone a source in a major publication (and the database sources don't even indicate notability); 3) the only hint of notability that anyone's found here is that the horse has notable lineage, of which we have a well regarded essay directly on point that says that's not enough (WP:Inherited). Shadowjams (talk) 18:05, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - OMG That was clearly my worst argued point ever. Redirect to El Gran Senor until something of notability for Sex Appeal (horse) is found. The more i look at this the more i think the article was created for the obvious innuendo. Note to self: stick to topics i am more familiar with. delirious & lost ☯ ^TALK 21:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haha... not a problem at all. I'm glad we agree, but even if we didn't, not a problem. I try to be direct; occasionally this comes across as abrupt. I hope you didn't take it as such. Shadowjams (talk) 04:34, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Never try to compose an argument on something so word-play-ish when you are about to go to sleep. You'll arise to see that someone has pretty much said "WTF" to your comments, and you will agree. Three days later you will finally find the words to articulate your position. delirious & lost ☯ ^TALK 23:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete If notability is not inherited for two-legged subjects, wouldn't that also apply for four-legged subjects? Plus, the horse never raced at all. Warrah (talk) 18:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, or at the very least make into a redirect to the El Gran Senor article. I agree with Warrah that notability not being inherited also applies to four-legged subjects, especially when she only produced (as far as I can tell) one foal that actually did anything. Dana boomer (talk) 00:15, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No notability. Enough. Jusda fax 22:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Keep - Non-admin closure to speedy keep on change of only delete vote remaining. Bfigura ^(talk) 17:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wojdak & Associates

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/Wojdak & Associates

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Zero attempt at notability, using only weasel words from outdated resources to make statements. 100% informative with no content or context beyond basic company facts. Some references are used falsely, most are political opinion publications. Datheisen (talk) 01:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Article was moved while posting AfD, resulting in the above confusion. Datheisen (talk) 01:53, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep I have dealt with these comments at Talk:S. R. Wojdak & Associates. I suggest that people read that whole exchange before !voting. Full disclosure: I am article's creator--Blargh29 (talk) 01:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd encourage it as well, but I'd like to clarify myself a little more. Articles that are nothing but informational and are only notable by personal statement or because they have been listed once or twice in a political editorial newsletter in one state are not automatically notable. More "why?" notability is needed instead of just "who?" Wikipedia isn't just a directory of lobbying firms, so a lot of people might ask for more. Datheisen (talk) 02:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

* Delete The articles cited as references (the ones that are truly reliable sources) don't appear to consitute non-trivial coverage. Bfigura ^(talk) 02:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Change to keep, implied speedy keep on review. --Bfigura ^(talk) 17:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - asserts notability, and the notability is backed up by reliable independent sources. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Keep. Influential lobbyists typical generate press coverage of their actions, and the sources cited indicate this is no exception. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 03:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Change to Speedy Keep after discussion with author; removing nomination. Closing per. Datheisen (talk) 04:48, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - At this point the nominator withdrew their nomination and closed per that decision. However a speedy keep was not appropriate in this case as there had been another delete vote. Dpmuk (talk) 15:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Article asserts notability, and I agree with Hullaballoo Wolfowitz--Milowent (talk) 16:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge with Van Halen. Given the lack of sourcing in the article, my lack of access to the main source provided, and my lack of knowledge in music topics, I am doing a "token merge", with one sentence only. Someone with access to better sources than I have may merge in more material. I would like to extend a big thank you to Miami33139 for providing a source to work from. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Jan Van Halen

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This person does not appear to meet individual notability requirements. Being the parent of notable individuals is not sufficient. -- Mufka ^(u) ^(t) ^(c) 01:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Classic case of WP:INHERIT. Does not pass notability guidelines as an individual. Jujutacular ^T · C 01:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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Delete Notability is not inherited and I could not find any reliable sources that provide significant coverage of him. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 02:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge unique information to Van Halen, Eddie Van Halen and/or Alex Van Halen, per WP:N and WP:INHERIT. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per above comment. Not sufficiently notable for an article. JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge seems like a good idea. ChildofMidnight (talk) 17:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge for reasons given above. Drmies (talk) 19:10, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete nothing sourced, nothing to merge. Duffbeerforme (talk) 14:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep I hate saying that about unsourced articles; however, there are several dozen biographical books about Van Halen members and the famous boys. Most of these books contain significant information about Jan Van Halen. Particularly the first chapters of Everybody Wants Some has quite a bit of detail on Jan, and that book is often criticized as being an unoriginal compilation of other sources. Sources certainly exist to make a comprehensive article about Jan, whether it remains that he could only be notable as the father of the Van Halen brothers, well, we have articles about a lot of famous parents. Miami33139 (talk) 20:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 00:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

William Cosden

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See WP:BLP1E. This person has no historical significance warranting an article, nor are there any truly biographical sources (where he, rather than the one event he gained notoriety for, is the subject of the source). Wikipedia shouldn't be a publisher of true crime accounts. He committed a murder that was briefly the subject of news reports, and that is all. However, Wikipedia is not a newspaper. Dominic·t 01:22, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete the only notability claim is that the rape he was convicted of was at one time attributed to Ted Bundy. That mistake by the authorities does not make him notable. ~~ GB fan ~~ ^talk 02:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:BLP1E. I assume he's already mentioned on Ted Bundy which doesn't really leave anything left to merge. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:30, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, as above (adding my voice in the hope it will hasten a snowclose). --Paularblaster (talk) 19:15, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Though I was the author and main contributor of this article, I was not aware of the 1E policy at the time, but having now read it, I agree. GSMR (talk) 21:31, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - obvious BLP1E & the tenuous connection to Ted Bundy isn't nearly enough to raise the subject into notabliity - Alison ^❤ 05:53, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - per WP:BLP1E. Coffee // have a cup // ark // 06:09, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was merge to The Atlantic for now. Should sufficient reliable coverage of the site emerge that would justify a split and summary, then let this discussion not stand in the way. Skomorokh, barbarian 02:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Atlantic Wire

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Recently created website. Has received some media attention. Is it sufficient? — RHaworth (talk · contribs) 01:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is sufficient. It is a brand new website that, on its first day, was the subject of a substantial blog on the New York Times media blog as well as several media websites including mediabistro and the Columbia Journalism Review. It is also regularly featured on a variety of political blogs including The National Review Online as well as the New York Times technology blog, gizmodo.com and Anne Althouse to name a few. It is the newest product from the Atlantic Media Company and holds the same editorial standards as the Atlantic Monthly, the award-winning 153-year-old magazine. — KatharineRust (talk · contribs)
Does it really have the same editorial standards? A number of the top fifty -- and to avoid a flamewar, I shan't be drawn into saying which of them -- look to me like intellectual nonentities, mere blowhards whose prominence derives from bigotry, innuendo, pigheadedness, etc. Would the printed Atlantic actually provide a forum for these people? -- Hoary (talk) 10:42, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep - the NYT blog article seems sufficient coverage, although the article could certainly use a few more sources backing that up. I've trimmed out the (hugely unencyclopedic) reprint of the "Atlantic 50" list, which leaves the article very short and stubby, and leaves me wondering, given its lack of content, whether it might not be better staying (for now) on the main article for The Atlantic? - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:35, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The account that created this page seems to be a WP:SPA that seeks only to promote the website as evidenced by their editing history. Soxwon (talk) 04:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - even a stopped clock is right twice a day. Regardless of their intention to create it as spam, it's still an article worth keeping if it happens to meet the notability guidelins - which it appears that it (barely) does. - DustFormsWords (talk) 05:33, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge into The Atlantic. JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge seems reasonable. ChildofMidnight (talk) 22:56, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge seems to be the way to handle it, and eliminate the external links added to articles, as they add nothing to the articles. Dayewalker (talk) 21:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Atlantic Wire is its own entity - It's a sister site to The Atlantic, not part of it. Perhaps if there were a page for the parent company, the Atlantic Media Company, then it could be merged onto that, otherwise it should stay on its own. —Preceding unsigned comment added by KatharineRust (talk • contribs) 22:07, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Speedy Keep, withdrawn by nominator.

Larry Ceisler

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Questionable notability. Article is predominately copied from its first resource; resources are strictly informational and offer no context for notability. Datheisen (talk) 01:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The individual is a prominent Pennsylvania political analyst. Sure, it needs more sources, but per WP:N, sources provide "evidence of notability," they don't determine notability. Full disclosure: I created this article.--Blargh29 (talk) 01:19, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Prominent" is precisely the sort of concern I am referring to. There's no evidence to back up this claim. Sources don't alone determine notability, but what is providing it here if we have nothing else to go on but a personal claim? Datheisen (talk) 01:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Per Wikipedia:Lead section, the first paragraph is a short summary of the article. "Prominent" is a word that summarizes this individual's penetration and importance within his field, all of which is supported by several refs. It would be foolish to list this individual's every position and evey contribution to Pennsylvania politics. (Such a list would include being a political commentator for news programs and testifying as a certified expert witness in Pennsylvania politics in federal court.--Blargh29 (talk) 02:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification: More specifically, the article makes no attempt to explain why the subject is notable compared to any other person with the same profession. Past jobs including those in local TV news simply isn't significant or substantial enough, and it doesn't come close to scratching WP:BLP suggested topic areas. Datheisen (talk) 01:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy Keep after discussion with article author and no further concerns. Datheisen (talk) 04:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 20:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simplicity PHP framework

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Framework is not notable as it has not received significant coverage in secondary sources. I was only able to find blog posts (not WP:RS) for the framework. The article also fails to indicate its importance, but because of the previous AfD/mistaken prod, I think I should try AfD instead of CSD. Odie5533 (talk) 01:36, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this software. Joe Chill (talk) 18:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Neutral - Ouch, big blunder on my part, one of previous refs was a false hit. I remove the keep !vote because no GNG seems to help me, but I still see no point in deleting the article. There is no harm made to WP reputation or enciclopedicity by keeping it, and it is verifiable. Better having it than deleting it, in my opinion.--Cycl^opia - ^talk 13:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC) Keep - coverage can be found, e.g. [40], [41]. What's wrong with PHP frameworks on WP these days? --Cycl^opia - ^talk 13:23, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The real bare minimum for inclusion is can a full article be written from the reliable sources available? If the answer to this is no, then we run into a real problem. That this framework is not capable of having a full article based on reliable sources does not mean it has no place within Wikipedia. Perhaps it has enough to be included in a List of frameworks page, or something similar. But given the reliable sources found on the subject thus far, full coverage of this framework is not possible. --Odie5533 (talk) 18:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 20:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A Mess of Iguanas

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contested prod. Does not meet WP:NBOOK. Not finding significant coverage in 3rd party sources. Web hits are largely to sale sites. Only a single news hit. Not finding reviews in reliable sources. RadioFan (talk) 16:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The reviews I read of the book were in The Mirror and at languagebooks.suite101.com/article.cfm/mess_of_iguanas_whoop_of_gorillas_group_terms. The creatures of Prometheus (talk) 09:14, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - I think the Mirror reviews make it just notable enough, Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 10:00, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete - Got mixed up with the policy again. Has to be covered by "multiple, non-trivial sources", Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 10:03, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - the only assertion of notability is made by the publisher and seems pretty weak; there are no independent sources attesting to its notability (or anything else). It therefore fails WP:N. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete Per Spongefrog - the book needs multiple sources and the Mirror is the only strong coverage it received. Warrah (talk) 19:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Integral economics

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A combination of promotional copy and word salad. It's possible that the topic of this article is deserving of coverage in Wikipedia, but after a careful reading of the article I couldn't determine what its topic was.

Moreover, the use of phrasings such as " 'paradigmatic' methodology" and "the nature of human existence has been determinately shaped as the functional ‘value’ derived through the translation and practical application of that same knowledge" suggests that the article has been written to be incomprehensible in order to inoculate it against criticism ("you just don't understand the subject").

I don't know whether we ought to have an article on this topic, but I think the article we have is not appropriate for Wikipedia. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:57, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I've made some efforts to clean this article up, but I must say it is still a bit of a mess. A lot of the article appears to be synthesis, taking economics sources that don't mention Integral theory and interpreting them as saying things that support that theory, and taking Integral theory sources that don't talk about economics and interpreting them as applying to that subject. There does appear to be at least one source that specifically discusses economics and Integral theory together, but I'm not sure if it is enough to support a freestanding article. The best solution might be to merge the small amount of relevant material into the existing section on economics in the Integral movement article. Or perhaps there are other editors more familiar with the literature on this subject who could provide more relevant sources to flesh out a full article. --RL0919 (talk) 02:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Stubify, per Google Books and Google Scholar references, this is a real subject, although the content of the current article, written by Ron Paul enthusiast User:Gospelnous is largely a fantasy. An accurate, non-original research article would focus on economic analyses produced by followers of Sri Aurobindo, Mirra Alfassa, Ken Wilber, and associated figures. Such as: [42] [43] [44] [45] — goethean ॐ 14:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I have removed much of the offending material. I've not yet re-written with new sources. — goethean ॐ 14:54, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete without prejudice to re-creation in English. This would appear to be a coatrack article designed to promote the views of the "Integral Institute", a think tank of dubious notability in itself, whose purpose (from that page) is "to gather and attempt to integrate the various viewpoints found in a number of major fields of knowledge. For example, the Integral Institute currently has a number of branches including Integral psychology, Integral business, Integral politics, Integral medicine, Integral education, Integral law and criminal justice, Integral art, and Integral spirituality." Given this vague mandate, it isn't surprising that this article contains large swatches of content that no reasonable person can be expected to make sense of: Adapting the traditional lens of economics in favor of an integral approach might begin with a map (AQAL) utilized in concert with a vehicle or 'operating system' (IOS). Where the first affords a sense of orientation and familiarity with the terrain, the second provides the means of effectively communicating and actually traversing the territory. Google Scholar contains a number of hits, but it's by no means obvious that any of them are talking about this particular organization's views. Whatever they are. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 14:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Smerdis and I sometimes agree; this article is very close to nonsense. DGG ( talk ) 02:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cool Victory

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The majority of the content of this article appears to be a hoax. I can find no evidence that these guys have ever actually competed in pro race. The source are mostly pure puffery and have no mention of this organization. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:12, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. I'm not going to decide on something at the moment, though I think the content of the article seems to be contrary to the policies of WP:Notability and WP:HOAX. -- ISLANDERS27 09:10, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I was contacted by an ip user who claims to represent this organization. I have explained to them about reliable sources and added tags to the disputed claims in the article Beeblebrox (talk) 17:12, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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I think I just saw a tumbleweed blow through this afd. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:07, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - none of the sources appear to back up any of the claims in the article. Lack of independent sources is a WP:N failure, even if the article isn't a hoax. Further, the article does not assert notability, which leaves the question of whether GT Racing teams are inherently notable (they may well be). - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Speedy Delete. Probable hoax. "Based in the Empire State Building" my a--. JohnnyB256 (talk) 18:32, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a minor point of order, but only blatant and obvious hoaxes can be speedy deleted, probable hoaxes get their day in court. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Heaven Can Wait (2009 book)

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Contested prod. Non-notable book. Much of the article went down with the prod tag. Delete. Blanchardb -^{Me•MyEars•MyMouth}- timed 04:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this WP:BK. Joe Chill (talk) 02:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete doesn't pass WP:BK. Coffee // have a cup // ark // 03:27, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - article does not assert notability. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:41, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: WP is WP:NOT an ISBN book catalogue repository. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 20:17, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

& Teller

AfDs for this article:

Articles for deletion/& Teller

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I am also nominating the following related page for the same reasons specified below:

This video short by Teller (magician) was an entry in a contest. It doesn't seem that it would meet notability requirements per WP:NF. Coverage doesn't seem significant. -- Mufka ^(u) ^(t) ^(c) 11:18, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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- Merge to Teller (magician). Powers ^T 17:28, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete for lack of sources and general obscurity, not worth merging. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 01:10, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 19:32, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

National Association of Government Communicators

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Non-notable organization. Prior PROD (with reason: "Non-notable organization. No significant coverage in Google news. Google web finds only the organizations site and various listings of the organization.") removed by IP editor who removed much promotional material from the article, but did nothing to actually assert any notability for the organization. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - article's sole assertion of notability is its size (600 members) which makes it smaller than many schools. No sources plus no assertion of anything actually notable means it fails WP:N. - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:46, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The National Association of Government Communicators (NAGC) is an important, fast-growing organization that provides valuable resources to its members. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuajfolk (talk • contribs) 19:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC) — Joshuajfolk (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Perhaps. However, no reliable sources can be found to verify that. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 20:38, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The National Association for Government Communicators provides a unique forum for those of us working as communicators in the public sector. Its educational conferences provide not only opportunities to improve our skills but also to network with fellow public agency communicators. It allows us to share with and learn from our public sector peers. Linda Horrell, Communications Manager for the Illinois Municipal Retirement Fund —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.96.239.43 (talk) 14:47, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No claim is made that the group is not useful to those who belong to it. The article is nominated for deletion because there is no verifiable claim of notability. There are no independent sources that mention this group with any significance. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 15:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the feedback, WikiDan61. Doing a quick web search, I have found three external sources that should provide enough verification that this non-profit organization exists, has a clear purpose, and recognizes today's leaders of government communication.

1) http://soundwaves.usgs.gov/2009/05/awards7.html

2) http://joandetz.com/wordpress/?p=102

3) http://soundwaves.usgs.gov/2008/07/awards.html

Hopefully, this helps. Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuajfolk (talk • contribs) 21:29, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Compared to other wiki entries - National Association of Government Contractors - I would consider the available external sources to be enough to validate the National Association of Government Communicators on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuajfolk (talk • contribs) 22:00, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

First, the existence of other bad articles is not a valid argument to keep this bad article. Second, the National Association of Government Contractors claims a membership of 400,000 and represents major industry players in their dealings with the US Government, while the National Association of Government Communicators claims a membership of 600; surely the former by dint of its scale alone is more notable than the latter. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 13:10, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't intend to claim that the Contractors article is bad. In fact, for the reasons you pointed out, Contractors deserves to be rightly placed on Wiki. Rather, I was comparing one article that is rightly placed (contractors) to another that should be rightly placed (Communicators). Your argument assumes that a professional association with more members deserves more notability than another professional association with less. However, your original argument for not placing the Communicator's article was that "no reliable sources can be found to verify that". So which is it? If it is the prior, how many members does it take to become notable? If it is the latter than I ask for you to reconsider the sources given.

Definition of a reliable source on Wikipedia: Wikipedia articles[2] should rely primarily on reliable, third-party, published sources (although reliable self-published sources are allowable in some situations – see below). Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand.

Let's begin with the first source: U.S. Geological Survey - third-party (yes) - published (yes - newsletter) - credible published materials (yes - USGS is a Federal Government Agency that has existed since 1879) - author generally regarded to as trustworthy (no evidence that they aren't)

We are trying very hard to provide you with the information you need to make Communicators an article on Wikipedia. If this most recent entry still does not provide you with enough evidence then please respond with exactly what you need from us. Wikipedia was not intended to block legitimate professional organizations from claiming their existence. Nor was it created to make the qualification process subjective to another user. I believe we can find a solution. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joshuajfolk (talk • contribs) 15:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 19:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A Missing Chromosome

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Non-notable bootleg. Canniba loki 16:00, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per WP:NMUSIC, which establishes a presumption of non-notability for bootlegs. There is nothing in this article to rebut the presumption. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:34, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Myspace and Last.fm are not WP:RS. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 14:55, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No clean processing and Surface insulation resistance

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Non-notable stubs and orphan articles. User who created it is Szhan. The article is an advertisement for an technical article written by S. Zhan. This could be a conflict of interest and an abuse of Wikipedia for self promotion. Or it could be a graduate student of S. Zhan so don't be so quick to accuse others. Still, the name suggests some ties. President of Chicago (talk) 03:11, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: If IEEE let you search their DB without being a member we could at least get some idea on notability prospects for the few papers the creator mentions but AFAIK you need to sign into their site, not sure if gscholar would get everything but sometimes hits come up on goog web search. Nerdseeksblonde (talk) 17:22, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Comment: I checked IEEExplore - there's only one citation listed for this article, and it's a self-cite by the same set of authors on more or less the same subject. Kate (talk) 00:25, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete for lack of multiple independent reliable sources that discuss the subjects in-depth and establish notability. Bfigura ^(talk) 02:52, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete or possible merge to broader subject. ChildofMidnight (talk) 23:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge No clean processing into Soldering. Keep Surface insulation resistance. SIR appears to be a popular manufacturing technique to test the reliability of circuit board components. A simple google search returned thousands of pages, many of which are companies which offer SIR services. See [46], [47], [48], [49], [50]. Obviously, this article is currently a (very poorly worded) stub at this point. But the subject is notable and deserves an article. Editing can solve this problem. Snottywong (talk) 22:29, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:54, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Love Is No Game

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contested prod. No indication of how this meets notability guidelines. Has not charted, nor won any awards nor has it been performed independently by other artists. Lacks significant coverage in 3rd party sources to warrant an dedicated article. RadioFan (talk) 16:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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This single warrants inclusion. Shirley Bassey is the most successful female recording artist in British history, this single is an import link in her single discography that we are working on. The single was not release outside of mainland Europe, but indicates her active recording career outside of the UK and US, and continued interest in he career. I single is a non-album track and therefore can not be included in an other article. The article contains a ref. to the active chart history of Shirley Bassey. Dutchdean (talk) 16:47, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment the notability of the artist isn't being questioned here, just the article on this single. Unfortuanately the notability of the artist doesn't transfer to an article on a single, it must meet notability guidelines on its own.--RadioFan (talk) 03:40, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Not individually notable despite Dutchdean's protests; no reliable sources, didn't chart, wasn't on an album. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 19:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Single only releases can be more important than an album track, this is why the single warrants an entry. Dutchdean (talk) 21:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment while that is certainly possible, it's not a given. Notability still must be shown through the methods described at WP:NSONGS, specifically references to 3rd party sources.--RadioFan (talk) 17:06, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Keep or merge Notable work by notable artist. Just a question of how best to include. ChildofMidnight (talk) 21:31, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Notable work by notable artist. - Ret.Prof (talk) 13:43, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 09:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ice Tropez

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Completing nomination for IP. Reason for deletion on talk page is:

No unaffiliated sources to prove notability - google hits are MySpace, Facebook, company-related or distributors. 98.248.33.198 (talk) 20:30, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I abstain. MrKIA11 (talk) 21:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per WP:N - no reliable independent sources. Article clearly established as self promotion and assertion of notability within the article is unclear at best. - DustFormsWords (talk) 23:04, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per above concerns with notability and promotion. Them From Space 01:26, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Promotion. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kevin (talk) 21:36, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

James Hutchinson (Solicitor)

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fails WP:BIO. A non-notable award for a paper and a brief mention in a ranking system which was discussing his firm does not make notability. Ironholds (talk) 19:26, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - his sole assertion of notability relates to winning a scholarly award; therefore the appropriate criteria are at WP:PROF. On my reading Hutchinson does not satisfy any of those criteria. - DustFormsWords (talk) 23:14, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: Notable? Should we have a page for every single lawyer in the UK? What makes this one so special? -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:04, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: A successful career is not necessarily a notable one. Cassandra 73 (talk) 16:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was keep. NW (Talk) 01:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Polymake

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Seemingly unoteable program. (No CSD for Programs) Random Time 17:32, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - unsourced article makes no assertion of notability. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:26, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep. An article doesn't need to make an assertion of notability (that's for WP:CSD#A7, for which this isn't eligible): it needs to be on a notable subject. The subject of this article has been noted (so is notable) by about 60 scientific papers that cite the original polymake article. I think this should provide enough nontrivial reliable secondary sources about the subject to pass WP:GNG The article as it stands now is pretty miserable, but I think expansion is a better option than deletion. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:47, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak keep. It seems to be notable in its scientific ___domain --Rirunmot 01:40, 26 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rirunmot (talk • contribs)

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Delete: unsourced, little material (easily merged if notable). -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:03, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. As David's search as well this search seems to indicate, the subject of the article is notable. Paul August ☎ 19:18, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment. Here's a more accurate book search that eliminates an unrelated program by the same name. There are still plenty of hits in the refined search. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:30, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks David. Paul August ☎ 22:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 09:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bobby Friss

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Doesn't seem to meet relevant notability criteria. Rd232 ^talk 17:01, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete - doesn't appear to meet criteria at WP:NMUSIC and in any case WP:BLP recommends the immediate deletion of all unsourced content from the biography of a living person, which here would result in blanking the article. - DustFormsWords (talk) 00:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete: nn. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Cirt (talk) 09:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pornstar (film)

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The previous nomination of this page ended as "no consensus", the closing admin commenting that without improvement they would expect to see the article back at AfD. In the months since the nomination the article has not been improved ([51]) and at this point it seems that beyond not meeting the notability guideline for future films there does not even appear to be enough information about the film to create a verifiable and accurate article. For example, the article currently starts "Pornstar is a 2008 feature film" (emphasis added), this is already inaccurate, the film was not released in 2008 and has not been released so far in 2009. Currently I can find no reliable, independent sources which state when or whether it will be released. The guideline for future films states that "films that have already begun shooting, but have not yet been publicly released (theatres or video), should not have their own articles unless the production itself is notable per the notability guidelines.". The film has not been released in theatres or on video and it does not appear to have received the significant coverage by reliable, independent sources as required by the general notability guideline. The official website linked on the page doesn't even exist anymore ([52]) and to be honest I think this is a good example of why there is a notability guideline for unreleased films, as it says "there is no "sure thing" production". Wikipedia is not IMDb. Guest9999 (talk) 21:43, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete per the well-articulated nomination, and also per the outcome of the previous AfD. Them From Space 01:21, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per the thorough nomination. In short, no RS -> no article. Bfigura ^(talk) 02:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Although I made the point to keep it in the first nomination, it is clear that the film is going nowhere at this point. Xenocide^Talk^|^{Contributions} 01:32, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. Kevin (talk) 21:28, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Duke of Mons

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Procedural nomination. Bearian (talk) Reason for nominating: there is no source for this article and I'm pretty convinced it's a fake. The external website is dead, and it doesn't seem to have existed either (www.archive.org, or google). It seems like an elaborate prank, making a niche article with no source. There has been no edit since 2006. An internet search didn't result in a valid link. I often work on the Dutch wiki on the topic of the Eighty Years' war, to a lesser extent also on the English wiki (see my history), and this Anderson person is completely unknown, and most likely a fake.

Regards, Kweniston (talk) 22:07, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Weak Keep - A google search seems pretty convinced that "Duke of Mons" was a real title at some point in history. How many people held the title, and whether Anderson is one of them, I can't immediately determine. But there's no problem with an article on the title, though. However, the information on Anderson would be better contained on a page under his name, rather than the title, at which point it would be unsourced and an appropriate candidate for deletion. - DustFormsWords (talk) 22:28, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Most of the articles are derived of the wiki page. Mons, or "Bergen" as it's called in Belgium was a county (nl:Graafschap Bergen) till 1071. There is no mention of it during the 1500/1600's, as well as not being a duchy (needed for having a Duke). Like I said, the article has the appearance of normal (stub) article, and it's been unnoticed since 2006. It's an orphan article, because it's not based on something real. Kweniston (talk) 22:50, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak delete I have read the relevant parts of as many of the sources immediately available as I had time for. The ones in Google are indeed derived from the Wikipedia page. There are quite a number in Google Books, none of which are so derived; a few of the hits are artifacts of the way words divided in two lines are indicated, and refer to the House of Com-mons or the like. However, many of them are authentic, but seem to refer to a number of people called the Duke on Mons; the principal one I have identified seems to be from the time of Henry V's invasion of France, and the primary source for him is the Chronicle of Enguerrand de Monstrelet, also known I think as the Continuation of Froissart, (there's a conveniently clear later retelling in [53], which has the advantage of notes giving the dates.) A Duke of Mons seems also present at later periods. I have not yet done the necessary research to see which if any of them corresponds to the person specified in this article, who is in any case much later than Henry V of England, so all the references to Froissart are irrelevant. (and looking through them has considerably decreased my trust in the accuracy of Internet Archive's material.) There is an absolutely reliable documentary source for this Duke on Mons in [54], the Public Record Office Calendar of the French Rolls for 4 Henry 5, membrane 17 for Sept.21, 1416. There is a n earlier person by that name also with a very sound documentary source in Rhymer's Foedera, as excerpted in [55]

A later Duke of Mons is reliably reported in 1546 by the so-called Letters Writ by a Turkish Spy [56]. All these sources are English, & they might be giving the title of Duke of Mons to someone who might actually be Count of Mons or some other title. In any case the English PRO certainly has records for people of that designation: so it must be referring to some real title. I am not sure which of them correspond to any of the people listed in [I am not sure which of them correspond to any people listed in [57] or [58]

I therefore conclude there is material to write a number of articles, but probably not this article--not from any data i could quickly spot. there may have been a nobleman of some variant of this title with these dates, with the name interpolated as a hoax, for the name does not seem that likely. But the title and the people who actually held it were not in the least a hoax. DGG ( talk ) 04:22, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Seems a hoax to me. Persuade me if I'm wrong, otherwise Delete. NVO (talk) 07:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete. This is a hoax (of which the author of the article is either the victim or the perpetrator). There never was a Duke of Mons. The multiple references on google books are to sources that use "Mons" to translate Berg (as can be seen by the conjunction of "Juliers" to translate Jülich), and we already have articles about the duchy and about its individual dukes. There was never a Duke of Berg (or of anywhere else, for that matter) by the name given here, "Rutgar Bernard Anderson", which apart from wikipedia mirrors produces only this facebook page as a google result. --Paularblaster (talk) 11:25, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was Another AfD was opened for this article while the AfD tag was missing from the article. Please see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Japan (Eiji Ōtsuka manga) (2nd nomination). Non-admin closure.

Japan (Eiji Ōtsuka manga)

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Notability not established in the article, no sources, even no content.-- deerstop. 22:45, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This AfD is incomplete - please add the AfD tag to the article.--Unionhawk ^Talk ^E-mail ^Review 18:00, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 00:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kill the Silence technique (disambiguation)

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Unnecessary redirect, one page is nominated for afd itself, the other does not have the same name. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - "Kill the Silence technique" is not even a plausible search term for the album, let alone compliant with WP:DAB. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:43, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Implausible search term. And non-compliant with WP:DAB. Really, then, just the same as the above, Lord Spongefrog, (I am the Czar of all Russias!) 09:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: redundant disambig. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:00, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: Fails WP:DAB. Joe Chill (talk) 18:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. NW (Talk) 01:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Kill the Silence Technique

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Apparently obscure, promotional technique —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:46, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - self promotion, non notable. If you check out the two sources, the Deadmau one doesn't actually refer to anything in the article, and the other is a (promotional) article written by the technique's creator that just happens to be hosted on Adobe's site. No evidence of notability and no reliable sources means it fails WP:N. At best it would be appropriate for merging to an article on Adobe Flash. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:47, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: Just what is this? It begins as a technique, and reads like marketing material. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 12:01, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. JamieS93 16:35, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Akelos PHP Framework

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I was only able to find a single reliable source for the framework ([59]). Subject fails WP:Notability as it has not received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources. Odie5533 (talk) 08:54, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not notable, I'm for deletion. Ekerazha (talk) 09:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this software. Joe Chill (talk) 22:10, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Delete The unique provided source doen't support notability Rirunmot 00:10, 18 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rirunmot (talk • contribs)

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Keep: Seems widely discussed and in use, a random sample of ghits: [60], [61], [62], [63], [64]. It is also cited (albeit passingly) in a book [65]. While I agree each of these sources can be weak, the overall number and interest around the program seems to document notability. --Cycl^opia - ^talk 10:44, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have any reliable sources that show its notability? --Odie5533 (talk) 16:23, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See last sentence of my comment above. --Cycl^opia - ^talk 13:43, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a pretty weak keep reason. --Odie5533 (talk) 14:36, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, some of the links look RS or nearly so to me (phpdeveloper.org or php.devreview.com). It has also to be said that open source software, even when hugely notable in the real-world meaning of the word, is not necessarily covered in the standard publishing avenues. See Parchive , its AfD and delrev, for a case study. I'd say that there is a strong case for notability, even if a bit off standards. My worry is that strict application of the standard GNG in this case is at odds with the real world. --Cycl^opia - ^talk 15:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Delete does not meet our criteria. Miami33139 (talk) 20:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was delete. NW (Talk) 01:03, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SC08

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Non-notable film project lacking GHits of substance and zero GNEWS. Appears to fail WP:NOTFILM. ttonyb (talk) 00:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Nothing notable here. Just some teen club in which they videotape their antics. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 00:44, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - no assertion of notability. Also no sources, and insufficient information to allow other editors to meaningfully expand, improve or verify the article's contents. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:49, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete NN Josh Parris 10:13, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: External school teen WP:MADEUP material; hardly encyclopedic. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 11:59, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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The result was no consensus. \ Backslash Forwardslash / (talk) 20:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of creatures in the Resident Evil series

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Ever since its last AFD, it was still not improved or fixed in any way, and is still WP:GAMEGUIDE content about non-notable monsters. The majority of references are to Resident Evil guides, etc. It's also in need of cleanup - better to delete it and leave this to an external wiki or FAQ. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 00:16, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge whatever content could be merged to List of characters in the Resident Evil series and delete everything else. Jonny2x4 (talk) 01:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Merge and delete. --Explodicle (T/C) 16:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to Resident Evil and leave it at that, this content shouldn't be here per WP:NOTGUIDE. --Explodicle (T/C) 16:24, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my reading, this list does not fall under WP:NOTGUIDE, as it is not an instruction manual, travel guide, internet guide, textbook or annotated text, scientific journal or research paper, nor a case study. It does however specificaly meet the inclusion requirements of WP:LIST, and the sources allow that it also meets WP:STAND. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 01:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Look again under "instruction manual" (item #1) and you'll see it lists "game guides". If there's no real-world relevance to these creatures outside the game then this is a game guide. I agree that WP:LIST and WP:STAND aren't limiting factors here; if this article told us fun facts about game monsters in prose we'd have the same problem. --Explodicle (T/C) 15:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah... read it.. carefully. This list is definitely not a game guide... it is a list. If it instructed in how to play or instructed in strategies to use or in how to win the game, then it'd be a guide. This does not, so game guide does not apply... specially as its notability is established by the existence of published works on this topic, showing the real world relevance in that Resident Evil is a significant, notable real-world franchise. Best, Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 00:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand that this is a list, but that doesn't have any bearing on whether or not this is a game guide. For example, the first two citations are to illustrate where a monster can be found and what kind of attacks to expect.[66] Most of these entries only discuss plot. I would consider useful information like "they come back to life more dangerous than before", "they release their offspring upon death", "the venom kills in minutes", etc to be gameplay tips. I agree that we're meeting the notability requirement; all I'm disputing is what significance this information has outside of the games. What relevance does any of this have on anything outside of Resident Evil? --Explodicle (T/C) 15:02, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect to the character list. 70.29.209.91 (talk) 03:50, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. Muchness (talk) 09:09, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - important fictional elements should be worked into the plot summaries of the individual games. The "Tyrant" has a citation to a gamespot "Top 10 Video Game Villains" article. This should be mentioned in the Resident Evil (series) overview. In the offchance that a particular monster has multiple, significant coverage from reliable publications, then I have no objection to a split-off article for that monster. Marasmusine (talk) 10:17, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting that we merge and delete? --Explodicle (T/C) 13:28, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't want to see any of this material merged, no. Marasmusine (talk) 13:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect - Just redirect it to the character list, and if anybody wants to use some of that content to make a new better page, then they can. It needs to be made from scratch if it can ever survive again. _Blake ^{(Talk·Edits)} 13:04, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think whatever's done we have to be careful about. The reason I edited things on the page is because I used the page in the first place, NOT as a game guide of any sort. Wikipedia has Real people and animal pages. So why not Character and Creature pages? --Kurtle (talk) 14:41, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete/Redirect - the page has never really improved, TBH. There's never going to be a lot of sources available, and it's a guide/pov/general shit magnet. Geoff B (talk) 17:46, 27 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete : This page is the result of countless other AFDs that resulted in "merge" or "redirect". Rather than having multiple shotty articles, we know have one big crappy article. As someone who has been watching this article for years now, I regret to say that it has not noticeably improved since the last AFD. This has been happening all across Resi-related articles. The best approach to betting these articles would be recreate as a user's subpage, and work on it there. We have taken similar approaches to Jill Valentine and Nemesis (Resident Evil). -- StarScream1007 ►Talk 14:19, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Notice the template at the bottom of the article? See how many books, games, and whatnot in this series? This is a fine list of characters found in a notable series. Dream Focus 11:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Creatures don't inherit notability from the series. There are a lot of primary in-universe sources, but nothing that establishes real-world importance. --Explodicle (T/C) 13:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as is, possibly curting some ofthe detail. This list is already the result of a long series of compromises.— Preceding unsigned comment added by DGG (talk • contribs)

Which of these creatures has real-world importance? I don't think previous compromises should force us one way or the other in this discussion. --Explodicle (T/C) 13:07, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy keep per the the GFDL as aspects of this article have been merged to and from it multiple times now and assuredly as a result portions of the contribution history must be kept for legal reasons. For example, in this edit and this edit, User:Randomran notes his merge of a whole section of material written by other users from this article to another article. This merged material was then merged elsewhere in this edit to an article that became a Good Article as listed at Talk:Nemesis (Resident Evil)/GA1. While a merge or even redirect with edit history intact would be acceptable, the edit history cannot be deleted. It would take a while to list all of the many instances in which material was merged to and from this article, but as even implied above, we know it has happened. Moreover, this list concerns some creatures that appear in over a half dozen games, what will be four theatrically released films, novels, a calendar, on clothing, etc. and that are covered in various video game magazines and strategy guides and in the case of the latter in an analytical manner in reviews and previews, and that also appear in other merchandising including replicas people can hold in the real world. One such reliable secondary source is Jesse Schedeen's "Best Resident Evil Bosses: Ten of our personal favorites, brought to you by Umbrella Corp." found on IGN's website (I have come across at least a half dozen of such lists featuring items from this article and some of these creatures do indeed appear on non-Resident Evil specific lists as well, i.e. ones that rank Nemesis and Tyrants for example as top bosses, monsters, etc. across all video games). In any event, notice that IGN is a blue link and not a mere fan forum. They are familiar to millions of video game enthusiasts around the world and as being part of the astonishingly popular Resident Evil series (easily one of the top fifty or so most significant video game series) have an influence on various other creatures that appear in other survival horror video games and even films. These items undeniably meet WP:N and WP:V, regardless of the state of the article, which is absolutely improveable. Per WP:PRESERVE, there is no justifiable need to redlink here (it is not a hoax, libelous, nor a copy vio) and at worst we would redirect with edit history intact or even transwiki per WP:BEFORE. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 13:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I have written an analysis at WT:Articles for deletion/List of creatures in the Resident Evil series (2nd nomination)#Content movement and resulting required attribution. Flatscan (talk) 03:44, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - All that shows is that some of this content has indeed been merged elsewhere and therefore cannot be deleted per the GFDL. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and continue work on sourcing the article. Since there are official game guides it will be easy. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 15:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete there is not a single reliable source that discuss this list of creatures at all. This list is of no realityverse notability at all. Whichever of the fictional creaturs are important to this series are already mentioned in the appropriate articles (probably at undue weight and length, but whatever). (The policy claim about the GFDL up above, often asserted by that user, is pure hooey).Bali ultimate (talk) 19:39, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Please remember to make honest and informed comments in deletion discussions. Nothing in your post is factually accurate, which reflects either deliberate dishonesty or ignorance of the topic under discussion. I suppose I'd rather it be the latter, but given the mocking of editors in other discussions, it is hard to legitimize such an obviously false "vote" rather than argument. Even the quickest of Google News and Google Books searches reveal coverage of these creatures in reliable sources and in scores of reliable sources. They meet not only a common sense standard of notability, but even the most stringest of subjective interpretations of Wikipedia's ever evolving concepts of notbility. Even the others with bolf face deletes above acknowledge that aspects of this article have been merged to and from it some untold amount of times and no reason exists whatsoever for redlinking beyond WP:IDONTLIKEIT, which is not a valid reason. As such no one with any familiarity of the topic under discussion is calling for an outright redlinking rather than a transwikying or redirecting of some sort. Compelling arguments exist for merging, further improving, transwikying etc, but there is no reason nor need to redlink and in any event WP:JNN is not a reason either, especially when beyond not true. Thank you and Happy Halloween! Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 23:30, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep because there are multiple reliable sources that discuss these creatures. This is the appropriate way of handling characters like this, and much better than discussing them in each pertinent article. If the content is relevant enough by some to be considered for a redirect to Resident Evil, it's just a relevant in and appropriate to be collected here. WHat can be fixed through the course of normal editing does not belong at AfD, despite the numerous comments that seem to dislike its inclusion. Yes, it should be continued to be worked on... but per WP:WIP andWP:DEADLINE it should be kept without a demand or expectation that it need all be done immediately. Closer, please note.... tossing out what can be improved is not how Wikipedia is supposed to work. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 07:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources alone do not make a topic suitable for inclusion. Also, redirects (unlike articles) don't have to be relevant at all. This article doesn't have to be fixed right now - we just need some evidence that it can be fixed; a source that discusses the subject's importance outside of the game world. --Explodicle (T/C) 14:13, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since this list is not an instruction manual, travel guide, internet guide, textbook or annotated text, scientific journal or research paper, or a case study, it does not fall under the criteria of WP:NOTGUIDE . It does however specificaly meet the inclusion requirements of WP:LIST, and the sources allow that it also meets WP:STAND. Requesting that non-gaming sources discuss it is not mandated by WP:V or WP:RS. But RS meeting GNG is mandated by WP:N... and many such have been included.... during the course of normal editing. A reasonable presumption that interested editors will continue improving the article as they have been doing is a call for keep, not delete. This presumption accepts that they will do as they are able to improve the article. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 01:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please see my reply to your other post near the top of the discussion about whether or not this is an instruction manual. --Explodicle (T/C) 15:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per A Nobody, mainly, although explicitly not his perennial GFDL argument, which is bollocks. As Nobody rightly points out, this is not List of characters from Some Crappy Anime That No One Has Ever Heard Of, it's a major, major video game franchise, and a spin-off characters article is hardly excessive. HiDrNick! 19:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Entirely non-notable. Doctorfluffy (robe and wizard hat) 21:02, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- "Non-notable" is neither true nor a valid argument. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 21:11, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - A Nobody, you have been counseled about this sort of badgering of others, and especially about referring to WP:JNN. Non notable is indeed a valid argument, although it's a weak one if it's not accompanied by substantiation of what has been done to establish non notability (either directly or by reference to the work of others in so establishing it) or by refutation of the arguments of others that attempt to establish notability. Further, there was an RfC about this behaviour of yours, and there was a pretty strong view that you need to stop this... that you chose not to participate does not obviate the findings of the majority of participants that this is disruptive behaviour. I could go and annotate every other remark you've made in this AfD where you violated the findings of that RfC (they are numerous) but I hope that one is sufficient. ++Lar: t/c 23:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: fails WP:GNG. Most of the content is unsourced. Most of the references that are there are to the 'Official Game Guide' or 'Official Strategy Guide'. No indication of "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". This appears to be just badly-sourced WP:FANCRUFT. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 12:06, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It clearly passes WP:GNG because it concerns sourced content from reliable secondary sources as any honest check of Google News and Google Books will reveal. WP:ITSCRUFT is never a legitimate reason for deletion and certainly when not true. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, the "Official" Game & Strategy Guides (the only sources appearing to give "significant coverage") are not "independent of the subject", so WP:GNG is not met. Hrafn^Talk_Stalk^(P) 15:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the significant and independent coverage in IGN and elsewhere unquestionably meets the GNG. Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 19:15, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete and protected redirect to Resident Evil. This is a mixture of fancruft & gameguide together, neither of which have any place here. Eusebeus (talk) 13:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:ITSCRUFT is never a valid reason for deletion, especially when not true. A list of items found in over a half dozen games, several films, and even as replicas that is discussed in an analytical fashion clearly has a place on the paperless encyclopedia that anybody can edit. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Article is in the process of being improved to take into account the reception of these creatures as well as their use outside of the games in films and I hope to add additional information on development as well (I have litterally scores of magazines, i.e. reliable secondary sources, I can comb through). I am focused on grading midterms this weekend, but would appreciate being able to return to the article in short order. Without ANY doubt this article can be improved further and has real potential for being a Good or even Featured list due to the available sources. Thus, per WP:PRESERVE, Wikipedia:Don't demolish the house while it's still being built, Wikipedia:Potential, not just current state, and Wikipedia:There is no deadline, we would greatly appreciate having a a real chance of doing whatever we can to continue to improve it (I reckon within a month or so, this will be significantly improved to that end). I hope that my colleagues are considerate to allow for this opportunity that will take more than a week and that as volunteers we should not feel overly rushed to do, but that will indeed happen. Thank you. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 16:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Cmt this piece of garbage has been here for almost four years, and there is still not a single reliable source independent of the subject that discusses this list at all, let alone one that would establish encyclopedic notability (independent from the game itself) for what is currently an unholy mess of original research and opinion unbacked by sources. (Just one assertion from the article --"the spider-based BOWs developed in the Umbrella Management Training Facility were known as Giant Spiders. They are similar to the Web Spinners. The term "Giant Spider" is also used for the infected spiders in Raccoon City that are not BOWs, but were infected by the viral outbreak." Well, sez who? And what independent source cares? So far, none. Same goes for almost every other entry.) So there are enormous doubts as to its improvability. I'm convinced it is impossible to bring this up to a minimal passing standard. Request for more time denied. Sincerely and with the utmost respect.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:29, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- In addition to the obvious dishonesty in the above IP's comment (the article not only contains several reliable sources independent of the subject that discusses the list, more are mentioned in this discussion, and any honest Google Search uncovers even more), the above comment was made by an IP who's sole AfD edit ever is to this AfD, i.e. it is either a single-purpose IP or someone's sock IP. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 17:30, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  - I'd appreciate you strike your allegation of lying just as your last rather unhinged comment was removed on your behalf [67]. Happy editing! Sincerely.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    - Ah, i see you've reinserted your earlier allegation of lying and deceit that was earlier removed [68]. Way to walk it like you talk it. I'm especially touched that you had a 7 month old diff on hand in which i callously and viciously wrote "nyah, nyah, nyah" to demonstrate that, obviously, I'm a liar who doesn't understand very much. Well played sir. Have a great day! Sincerely.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:39, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      - Well, it's like this, when I am actually looking for and finding sources and and actually incorporating them into the article, it gets really old having to then argue with those who are indeed making false claims. If you simply said, "I don't personally believe Wikipedia should include character lists and instead focus more effort on the main articles", okay fine. Yes, that is an "I don't like it," but so be it. Aggresively and incorrectly declaring that no sources exist here is just not true. Reliable sites like IGN do indeed features lists of these characters in a reception-esque fashion. Those are reliable secondary sources. You are either ignoring them altogether or are not familiar enough with them to recognize that they do indeed count as reliable sources. Sure the article has existed for a long time in a less than stellar state. Sure many of the current sources are from published reliable primary sources, but in but minutes I found and added material on their use in films, as toys, and their reception to expand the article and what I did, surely others could have did as I found these sources on just Google News and Google Books, i.e. I did not have to scour the earth to find them. It would be ridiculous to expect me or anyone who is actually trying to improve the article rather than just comment in the discussion to let slide factually inaccurate comments. We can perhaps have a reasoned debate on scope of coverage here, but the idea that it is not covered in any reliable secondary sources in just not true and as such how else can someone interpret a statement to that effect? Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 17:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Off topic discussion about A Nobody

Cmt i believe all of your assertions are factually false as well. Don't you have term papers to edit or more halloween spam to send out? Your multitasking skills are breathtaking. Have a wonderful day! Warmest regards.Bali ultimate (talk) 17:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you actually read the article or look for sources, you will see that all of my assertions are factually true. The bottom line is the article has some reliable secondary sources and out of universe commentary and considerably more exists. It would take a serious effort and overhaul to improve further, but undeniably such an effort is possible and I am willing to help as is evident by the dozen edits I made to the article already. And yes, thank you for the compliment as I can indeed do much at once (I can actually type over a 100 words minute)! Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 17:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But i thought you had no time until about a week from now? Was that a false statement? Seems like you have a lot of time on your hands today. Sincerely!Bali ultimate (talk) 17:56, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's a big difference between getting the ball rolling to show such improvements based on just a quick Google News and Google Books search are possible and undertaking a major revision based on reading through back issues of magazines. Why aren't you helping to improve any articles? Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 17:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why are you wasting so many man hours trying to force unencyclopedic content into wikipedia! Sincerely, and with great affection for a fellow editor.Bali ultimate (talk) 18:01, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:UNENCYC is not a compelling reason for deletion, especially when not true. By the way, what is your favorite Resident Evil game and/or film? Best, --A Nobody^{My talk} 18:04, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What's your favorite color? Do you believe that throwing false accusations of ignorance and deceit are appropriate here? Why? Is muddying the waters with walls of irrelevant text a valid way to save articles that fail the GNG? Why or why not (in 500 words or less with a number 2 pencil). Do you think wikipedia should have different inclusion standards from fan sites and official game guides? Answer this one with an interpretive dance, upload video to youtube, and post the url here and i'll respond to all that in a few days. I've got work to do, and the week after halloween is my favoritist time of year, and I feel a little touch of the flu coming on, so i may not respond in a timely manner. I'm sure you understand. Sincerely!Bali ultimate (talk) 18:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I hope you feeel better. While I am still disappointed that you made a false claim for deletion concerning an article that clearly passes the GNG as backed by reliable sources independent of the subject, I do not in any event wish ill health on you. Disagreeing on Wikipedia is one thing and my hope is that from such disagreements even when heated, the end result is that the article is improved as a result or content from it is used to improve other articles. If you are feeling ill, then, yeah, take a break and rest up. If Halloween is also your favorite time of the year, I wish you and your family a good one and hope that you get healthy and enjoy the holiday! Take care. Sincerely, --A Nobody^{My talk} 18:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cmt (On topic here b/c of the above rubbish) When is ANobody being dragged over to arbcom? Wasn't that the consensus from his User RFC? He's making no effort to change his behaviour; his salmagundi of passive-aggressive baiting, incessant replication, faux-naif salutation and disingenuous policy citation hasn't ebbed a bit. Eusebeus (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only people I noticed complaining about him are the ones you see calling everything "garage" or "fancruft" and trying to delete things, arguing with any attempt to save it. Most people who commented didn't see a problem with him at all. Dream Focus 15:29, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - but trim it way back to only significant, notable characters/creatures, the article as it stands now is far too large. Resident Evil is a significant, notable franchise and a list of significant characters or creatures is large enough that it might not fit in the main article. Notability is established by the existence of published works on this topic. That does not mean every monster that ever appears needs documenting here, though. (For that there are other wikis) ++Lar: t/c 23:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect and spin out Tyrant Of all the characters in that article that don't already have an article, the Tyrant has the best shot and a great deal of reception. Just a matter of someone actually developing an article on the subject. As Blake said though, a redirect would be preferable over a delete as it would make salvaging anything for future articles easier if more reception turns up.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 11:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. NW (Talk) 01:01, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

SON-T

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This is a commercial product article which serves only as an advertisment. The product is also not notable enough to merit its own article. Neelix (talk) 00:11, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I can't find significant coverage for this lamp. Joe Chill (talk) 00:14, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete: nn. -- 李博杰 | —Talk contribs email 11:58, 26 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

[1] "The death of argument: fallacies in agent based reasoning" By John Woods, Springer 2004, p. XXV [1]

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