Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luico Maclain Hopper

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. There is no reason why all the sources should be considered unreliable. As for the copyright issue, it is indeed a very close paraphrase, but some editing will take care of that. King of ♥ ♦ ♣ ♠ 09:54, 10 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Luico Maclain Hopper (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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BLP appears to be either a vanity page or one maintained by a single, obsessive fan. Unreferenced throughout, and ref list at end is just a string of website links to mainly music album personnel listings. Subject does not appear notable enough for an article. AstroCog (talk) 03:54, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The proposed deletion is patently biased and inequitable. The biography for this globally recognized musician includes 22 references and 3 external links. Mr. Hopper has played with world-famed musicians who are referenced in Wikipedia including James Brown; Johnny Gil; Luther Vandross; Bryan Ferry; et. al. It is quite outrageous to suggest that this is a vanity site or that the subject does not appear notable enough for article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mercedeswalton (talk • contribs) 04:07, 25 September 2011 (UTC) — Mercedeswalton (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. [reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. — — alf.laylah.wa.laylah (talk) 05:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Here's a reference from JazzTimes, calling him a "veteran sideman and Broadway bassist". In 1977, the New York Times called him "the phenomenal young bassist Luico Hopper". The author should be aware that we don't allow one Wikipedia article to be used as a reference for another. Most of the references in the article do not meet our standards, and the article needs a lot of work. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 08:03, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep The article is far from standard in terms of layout or referencing but that is a matter for article improvement not deletion. Although the subject's career appears to be mainly as a sideman, his own albums have been independently reviewed at respectable sites such as Allmusic and Allaboutjazz. AllyD (talk) 09:00, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - It certainly appeared to be vanity/publicity when I reviewed it last night. The text is apparently copied from other sites (e.g. this one), with just some minor massaging here and there. The images are publicity stills which the article creator is claiming to be their own in the usage rationale. I am not diminishing this musician's talent or accomplishments, but the article creator is basically saying that he is notable because "look at all the famous people he has worked for." I have worked for a number of famous/notable people, but that fact does not make me notable. I'll concede that the musician has a couple of albums reviewed on websites, but given the way in which this article was created/constructed, using publicity information, copied text, links to product pages, I'm sticking with deletion at this point. AstroCog (talk) 15:27, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep In response to Astrocog's comments, first of all this article is originally drafted and contrary to your observation it was not "apparently copied from other sites with some minor massaging here and there". Secondly, Luico Hopper's accomplishments are measured not by the number of famous artists who have consistently sought him out of an intensely competitive field of bass guitarists in the United States and in Europe; but rather by this professional musician's nearly four decades of distinguished performances and notable achievements that are standalone and clearly speak for themselves. Your comments convey not only a complete lack of understanding about the inner workings of the music industry and the challenges musicians face in rising to the top of their instrument category among thousands of peers; you also seem particularly intent on marginalizing the professional and personal achievements of an African American male who has served for decades as a role model to many aspiring musicians and youngsters who start from humble beginnings and excel despite incredible odds. While like every other Wikipedia reference, this article is a work in progress and will continue to be improved, your proposal to delete is raises serious questions about so-called administrator objectivity in assessing the worthiness of an entry vis-a-vis other entries that with far less substance and significantly fewer supporting references are routinely rationalized for publication. With the depth and breadth of Mr. Hopper's accomplishments, it is frankly unfathomable that you would this entry would be proposed for deletion. mercedeswalton (talk) 16:57, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think you didn't understand my comment above. You should also be careful of making accusations of racism, because it's obvious that my actual comments do not support that assertion. I haven't singled this article out from every other on WP to nominate for AfD. My reasoning is already explained above. I did not say that a musician's accomplishments are measured by who they have performed with. I said the opposite, in fact. I was responding to your own assertion of notability when you said "The biography for this globally recognized musician includes 22 references and 3 external links. Mr. Hopper has played with world-famed musicians who are referenced in Wikipedia including James Brown; Johnny Gil; Luther Vandross; Bryan Ferry; et. al." Now, as to the copying I am referring to, this is what I mean:

From the WP article:Luico Hopper (pronounced "Lu-e-co") was born on September 5, 1952 in Bassett, Virginia as one of seven children to Nocomis Huddleston and Fitchue Hopper. Hopper was first introduced to music at an early age by his father who was an accomplished self-taught musician who often played the acoustic guitar after long days of working the land on their Virginia farm. Hopper played his first instrument the clarinet throughout high school. On his twelfth birthday, his eldest brother, Lawrence, presented Luico with his first guitar. Soon afterwards, Hopper began giving solo performances and earning extra money playing social events. He began studies in Sociology at Norfolk State University in 1970. During his freshman year, Hopper began playing the electric and acoustic bass. Shortly thereafter, Hopper joined the Norfolk State College Jazz Ensemble and remained part of this group until his graduation in 1974 with a B.A. in Sociology.

This is massaged, sentence for sentence, from the website I linked to:

Born and raised in Bassett, Virginia, Luico Hopper was introduced to music at an early age. He would often listen to his father play the acoustic guitar and sing around their farmhouse.

Luico's first instrument was the clarinet that he played throughout high school. He received his first guitar as a gift from an older brother on his twelfth birthday. Soon, he was immersed in the instrument. Shortly thereafter, he began giving solo performances and started making extra money playing for social events.

After high school, Luico entered Norfolk State University and majored in Sociology. During his freshman year, he started playing the electric and acoustic bass. After a short time, Luico joined the College Jazz Ensemble and remained part of this group until graduation.

Upon receiving his degree in Sociology, he decided to follow his long-time dream of pursuing a career in the music field.

Does anybody else see what I mean here? AstroCog (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• If the above is correct, this is blatant copyvio, isn't it? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:20, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

* That's part of my argument here. I might have been willing to withdraw this nom, given that the subject has albums reviewed on AllMusic, etc, but I wonder why articles for the albums are not more appropriate. I've also done a search for Luico Maclain Hopper on Academic Search Complete and on Google, but I can't find anything that could be used to build an encyclopedic BLP. A fan site and some passing mentions in personnel listings don't cut it for me. AstroCog (talk) 03:05, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• That looks like a close paraphrase rather than "blatant copyvio" but I'm not an expert on copyright. It seems that a simple rewrite and trim could eliminate that as an issue. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 05:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, causa sui (talk) 17:28, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Relisting comment More opinions on the copyright issues are needed. causa sui (talk) 17:33, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• One generally finds that the story people tell of their upbringing falls into a narrative. (Which of us has not glazed over when a friend or loved one has embarked on their same old story in company?) So I don't find similarity of content and emphasis unsettling. I also note that the brother has a name in the WP article, but not in the other, suggesting it is not simply derivative. (Be nice to have it sourced, but that's not the reason why we're here.) The college ensemble also has a name in the WP version, but that may be an obvious one. AllyD (talk) 20:00, 3 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• But where is this added information coming from? Doesn't seem to be from any of the references being used. Inserting a few novel facts into sentences already written, and massaging it around slightly doesn't make it original writing. Whether it's copyvio or close paraphrasing, the issue is still: is this information from a reliable source? AstroCog (talk) 22:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The actual reliable sources being used here are for reviews of this musician's albums, and contain no encyclopedic information that could build a biography. So far, nobody has responded to my point that no reliable sources for any such content can be found by doing a basic search through an article database (I used Academic Search Complete) or even Google. I would very much like to see the article saved with reliable content that can support a BLP, but such evidence isn't showing up.AstroCog (talk) 22:19, 5 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.