Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael Rosenzweig (composer)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. article was heavily improved during the AFD discussion and meets WP:N JForget 15:29, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Rosenzweig (composer)

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Notability. This composer and conductor hasn't made any impact in the classical music world. Also, there's no independent media coverage about him. Conducting engagements don't seem professional engagements, but concerts as part of training courses (also unreferenced). His compositions haven't been performed in public by any major orchestra/ensemble. The websites provided as refs for the prizes do not cite any prize. No external independent sources. Not every professional musician should have an article on Wikipedia. Karljoos (talk) 14:29, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. —J04n(talk page) 18:02, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. In my view, he fails GNG and WP:MUSIC as a conductor and composer. There are a lot of ghits out there but nothing indicating this guy is notable. For example, of the awards cited, none would appear to qualify as "major". --Mkativerata (talk) 19:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The "Artists-in-Berlin Programme of the German Academic Exchange Service (DAAD) fellowship" is a scholarship and not an award. It is also not so difficult to get as a Fulbright or a Rhodes.--Karljoos (talk) 02:10, 13 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Performances and recordings of his work by: London Sinfonietta, Arditti Quartet, Royal Liverpool Philharmonic. Current conducting engagement is entirely professional. Past conducting with, English Chamber Orchestra, formed and led London Strings. How exactly would you like to see these facts referenced? --Johnabdl (talk) 04:49, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Response to question in unsigned comment above: To the standard of WP:V. --Mkativerata (talk) 02:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Music New and Old: Two Festivals Considered", Wilfrid Mellers and Martin Dreyer The Musical Times, Vol. 127, No. 1722 (Sep., 1986), pp. 494-498 Published by: Musical Times Publications Ltd. Johnabdl (talk) 03:35, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Principal Guest Conductor of the Vidin Philharmonic" is a professional appointment.Johnabdl (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BBC Radio 3 broadcast of 2nd string quartet performed by the Arditti Quartet on Jan. 3, 2009--more to come.Johnabdl (talk) 04:15, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"SPNM - RVW Trust: Rosenzweig and Martland", Paul Driver Tempo, New Series, No. 156 (Mar., 1986), pp. 37-38 (article consists of 2 pages) Published by: Cambridge University Press Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/945854

Delete. Vanity article that fails WP:MUSIC and GNG written by single purpose editor.THD3 (talk) 14:37, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Based on the orchestra's website, it seems that this orchestra is the typical east-European orchestra used for masterclasses and low-budget recordings of media music (note that in the list of activities of the orchestra there's no concert season[1]) and there's no ref here to this conductor/composer being anything of the orchestra. Also in the article there's no ref to any concert of the English Chamber Orchestra and the Royal Liverpool Philharmonic conducted by M Rosenzweig or pieces performed by the Arditti Quartet.--Karljoos (talk) 16:19, 14 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Define "GNG" - link leads to nothing relevant to this discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNGJohnabdl (talk) 16:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do Not Delete.

No claim was made that Rosenzweig conducted RLPO; the RLPO performed his symphony.

Why does Karljoos expect, entirely unreasonably, that the two journal articles cited thus far in the discussion (in The Musical Times and in Tempo) were intended to refer to every aspect of the individual's activities?

The Vidin Philharmonic has no official website, which is why none was cited in the disputed article.Johnabdl (talk) 16:49, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"In an invitation concert from the BBC's Maida Vale studios, the Arditti Quartet give the world premiere performance of Michael Rosenzweig's Second String Quartet, a BBC commission." http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gd5pq Johnabdl (talk) 17:20, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Please read Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline.--Karljoos (talk) 19:05, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but improve. He seems to have fallen out of fashion in recent years, but was regarded as a significant figure in the 1980s (i.e. pre-web, hence the lack of online references). If I remember rightly he was featured at the 1986 Almeida Festival. --Deskford (talk) 20:13, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there is media coverage, in the UK and in Germany, from the 80s and 90s. Here's some,

reviews of Symphony in One Movement,

- Michael Kennedy, The Daily Telegraph 11/25/1985

- Bryan Northcott, The Sunday Telegraph 12/1/1985

reviews of Elegy for 13 Solo Strings,

- Meirion Bowen, The Guardian 2/22/1982

- Hampstead and Highgate Express 2/26/1982

review of Sinfonietta 1, Solo for Flute, Solo for Bass Clarinet, performed by the London Sinfonietta

- Paul Griffiths, "Concerts: Festival Hall", The Times 3/25/1986

--Johnabdl (talk) 00:09, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Meets notability criteria per Johnabdl. --Klein zach 23:04, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Another journal citation, DAVID C.H. WRIGHT (2005). The London Sinfonietta 1968–2004: A Perspective. twentieth-century music, 2 , pp 109-136 doi:10.1017/S1478572205000216 - http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?aid=359829. I don't have the article, but if you search on this string, "Robert Saxton, Chris Dench, Michael Rosenzweig . . .11. Looking at the Sinfonietta commissions from the 1980s, we see that (except for Knussen)", you should get a link to the COJ site abstract in the search results. Rosenzweig had two at least two commissions from the London Sinfonietta. There was also London Sinfonietta concert of his work that was reviewed by The Times, but their online archive doesn't go that far back. --Johnabdl (talk) 00:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Expand article citing all the stuff Johnabdl pointed to. He clearly is notable. --Jubilee♫clipman 01:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- BTW, they meant WP:GNG... --Jubilee♫clipman 01:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep – What Jubileeclipman said. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:47, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep and improve the article with the references listed above. There's sufficient evidence here for notability. Also, there is no evidence to suggest this is a "vanity article" (i.e. authored by the subject). And even if it were, that is not a valid argument for deletion. Voceditenore (talk) 18:06, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
There was one article devoted entirely to him "Chords of Chaos". It appeared in the South African Mail & Guardian, 13 May 1999. Rather a sad tale... Voceditenore (talk) 18:50, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An interesting and curious tale. I seem to remember reading somewhere much more recently — probably when his Second String Quartet was broadcast in January 2009 — that he is engaged in a war of words with the BBC over his belief that his work has been systematically overlooked. The truth is there are hundreds, no, thousands of deserving composers who would benefit from greater exposure, but precious few opportunities for such exposure. --Deskford (talk) 20:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep but improve (by cutting down to size) - Michael Rosenzweig seems to merit an entry, but nowhere near the engrossing article we currently have, which is longer than those on many other more notable persons. MUSIKVEREIN (talk) 18:43, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This makes no sense; what's "engrossing" about it? On the contrary, it's quite sketchy: nothing about style and influences, for instance. MUSIKVEREIN might give examples of "those on other[,] more notable persons" whose entries are significantly shorter, and why their lengths should not be added to, as MUSIKVEREIN, for one, (or others in his 'society') might deem appropriate, rather than cutting down anything else less notable? (That would be a positive, not a vague, contribution.) However, Wikipedia:Notability is not by degrees; something is either notable or not. And [Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content]. Five users (Deskford, Klein zach, Jubilee♫clipman, Michael Bednarek, Voceditenore) with considerable experience in creating and editing music-related articles seem to recommend expansion. Johnabdl (talk) 20:12, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly wouldn't advocate cutting anything from the current article, just adding references and perhaps a bit of tidying to make it read better. Indeed, expansion would be welcome — I'm sure there is much more of note that could be said about this composer. Those "other more notable persons" maybe need their articles expanding. --Deskford (talk) 20:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's definately an engrossing topic! But the article is actually only 9 or 10 short paragraphs long: hardly "inflated" (which I guess is what was meant). --Jubilee♫clipman 00:10, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- Interview from Berlin Tagesspiegel

Martin Wilkentung, "Künstler im Gespräch: Michael Rosenzweig, Komponist aus Südafrika" Der Tagesspiegel, Mittwoch, 12 Dezember 1990. ["Artist in Conversation: Michael Rosenzweig, Composer from South Africa" Daily Mirror, Wednesday, 12 Dec. 1990] --Johnabdl (talk) 20:55, 16 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - maybe not the most notable but certainly seems notable enough. Besides not enough people have a Z in their name. Rich Farmbrough, 01:10, 17 December 2009 (UTC).[reply]
- Z! I think that's the clincher: we have to keep now! --Jubilee♫clipman 23:58, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have you not seen the List of composers with a Z in their name? Many of my favourite composers are on it. --Deskford (talk) 00:09, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good one! I was looking for one of my favourites Zelenka, then I realised... --Jubilee♫clipman 00:33, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Snow/speedy keep. Per above keeps.--Epeefleche (talk) 15:12, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.