Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Observed Performance and Effects of Communism

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete Spartaz ^Humbug! 22:45, 5 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Observed Performance and Effects of Communism

Delete The entire article is POV and hodge podge of different sources. The effects described here are actually specifically effects of some communist governments, not "effect of communism". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 11:00, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your objection seems irrelevant since the topic of the article is "observed performance" and so it is looking at results rather than theory. Colonel Warden (talk) 15:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep/merge. The article seems to be part of a set starting from Criticisms of communism. The material might be rearranged but there's lots to say and so this subarticle structure seems reasonable. Colonel Warden (talk) 15:28, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The article as written sucks. it has no focus, no direction, almost no ecyclopdedic purpose. Likely something with this title is an article to be written. This one is not it. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:50, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Keep/merge. To address your concerns:

1. Regarding the article being POV, it is all referenced. It is not POV. It deals with a controversial subject that some will find objectionable, and will not want to discuss. But it is not POV. It is all referenced. If in fact you do find small portions of the article are POV, you should edit them to remove the POV rather than suggesting a draconian measure like deletion.

2. Regarding it being a "hodge podge of different sources"... I don't know what you are criticizing here. Almost every article on Wikipedia is a "hodge podge of different sources." Please reference a specific Wikipedia guideline that has been violated here.

3. The article, as it is titled, refers to the observed effects of communism in different countries. As such, it has a clear encyclopedic purpose. Please reference the Wikipedia guideline which would indicate that this article does not have an "encyclopedic purpose." There are no other articles on Wikipedia that deal with the relationship between Communism and famine/genocide. If you want to improve it, feel free. Immediately demanding that it be deleted though, does not strike me as a reasonable response. The article is not as complete and comprehensive as it may end up being. A lot can be said about this subject. However, your criticisms do not seem to be directed at the page being too short. I can expand it to be more comprehensive if you like, or you could do it yourself. That is how Wikipedia works.

For example, here is a whole List of effects describing the effects of different things. These are clearly encyclopedic. Mrdarklight (talk) 18:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete this putrid POV fork full of OR. Some of the sources could potentially contribute to central planning, but the pseudo-scientific title is highly misleading. Note that not all communist countries have had famines, so this is basically extrapolating from one notorious example. --Dhartung | Talk 19:15, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep/merge. This article has no OR. It has no POV. It is all referenced by reliable sources. Again, if you think it has POV, please correct the POV rather than immediately jumping to delete. It is definitely not the extrapolation of one notorious example, but an observation of several examples, as noted in the article (China, Soviet Union, Cambodia). It can be expanded to include North Korea if you like. Honestly, what's POV is to dedicate many pages to communism and then to ignore the elephant in the room - the history of famine and genocide in communist nations. It would be as if you wrote a comprehensive series of articles on Nazism and somehow ignored the Holocaust. This article is, in part, an attempt to cover this important part of history, which is severely lacking elsewhere in the discussion of communism. Mrdarklight (talk) 19:42, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Add Ethiopia. See Google scholar for thousands of sources on these multiple communist famines which killed millions. OR is not required to cover this subject in great detail. The article just needs work. Colonel Warden (talk) 19:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited the content to remove two instances that could be interpreted as POV and/or OR. Mrdarklight (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a paragraph about the North Korean famine, in order to make the page more comprehensive and complete. Mrdarklight (talk) 20:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I just checked: The Wikipedia page on Nazism mentions the Holocaust six times on the first page. This is of course reasonable and proper, as the holocaust is an important part of Nazism. The main page on communism doesn't mention famine, genocide or even the word violence - not once. Mrdarklight (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have edited the main page of Communism to rectify this oversight. Mrdarklight (talk) 20:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete No matter how brilliant an essay, no matter how many sources thrown in to persuade us, it's still an essay. The other side of Communism was its guarantee of "full employment" for the citizens. If you complained enough, they even allowed you to go to a labor camp. Mandsford (talk) 22:08, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What makes this an essay? How is this an essay, while any other page is not an essay? 63.169.2.31 (talk) 01:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess it's your central thesis, "One of the primary observed effects of a centrally planned economy is a general weakening of economic performance," followed by proof in the form of evidence that famines happened under a particular form of totalitarian government. Notwithstanding that famines have occurred in non-communist nations as well, the article is one person's synthesis of information to prove a point. I define an essay as something that proposes an idea and then illustrates it, subject to people agreeing or disagreeing. Most of the articles on here are not essays, but recitals of facts, with very little analysis. Mandsford (talk) 02:48, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article doesn't require any analysis, and I didn't provide any. There is no OR in this article. It is not subject to "one person agreeing or disagreeing." It is the recitation of facts provided by attributed sources. If you can find a Wikipedia policy or guideline that has been violated here, I encourage you to reference it. I'd be glad to make this article comply with all Wikipedia policies. In fact, I believe it already does. Mrdarklight (talk) 06:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Observed Performance and Effects of Capitalism --Dhartung | Talk 22:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This article is nothing but analysis. It attempts to analyse the performance and effects of what it calls "communism" (and later, "socialism"), using a selective set of facts and with no attempt to define its terms: what is "communism"? The current governments of Cyprus and Kerala are also communist by name, yet are puzzlingly omitted here.

All of the observations on performance are negative: no mention is made, for example, of superior literacy levels and healthcare observed in nominally communist states like Cuba, though referenced facts on this are trivially simple to find: see List of countries by infant mortality rate, List of countries by literacy rate, List of countries by unemployment rate.

Notably, under the subheading "Freedom and Democracy", it's correctly pointed out that all of the totalitarian states listed call themselves "democratic republics", though they are neither democratic nor republican. Yet, for some reason, their identification of themselves as "socialist" is taken at face value. This article could therefore be renamed to Observed Performance and Effects of Democracy or Observed Performance and Effects of Republicanism, and be of just as much value. It's a blatantly POV essay. Virago (talk) 07:56, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've also found and prodded a very similar (orphan) POV essay by the same editor, Death Toll of Communism. It seems the article listed here is a second attempt at posting: the first attempt was redirected to Criticisms of communism a year ago. Virago (talk) 17:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, a pov fork extra-ordinarie. --Soman (talk) 11:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, can't find anything in here even worth merging with Criticisms of communism. Virago (talk) 20:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete While referenced, it reaches its own conclusions in a way that can only be described as a novel synthesis of ideas, and anything that is actually factual and referenced is redundant to other articles. There is nothing to merge, since there is nothing worth merging. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:32, 1 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
delete ahistorical, POV throughout, whether of the WP authors or the referenced authors does not matter. Hmains (talk) 18:51, 2 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. Worthless POV pushing. john k (talk) 18:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge or Delete. Claiming it has no POV is like claiming "scientific socialism" works. It looks and smells like a POV fork to me. Get rid if it -- as it violates one of the basic rules of WP, or merge it back into one of the primary articles on communism. 01:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.