Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ramon Estevez

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. -- Cirt (talk) 01:10, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ramon Estevez

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Unimportant sibling to two famous actors, Emilio Estevez and Charlie Sheen. Tailcoating is not a valid reason for an article. Not notable himself Tovojolo (talk) 00:42, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I'm sure that there are "unimportant Barrymores" as well, but it's inevitable that encyclopedia users will be curious about members of a famous acting family who didn't enjoy the same measure of success. Mandsford 01:45, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I don't think the roles this actor has had are sufficient to meet Wikipedia:Notability_(people)#Entertainers, and I can't find sources sufficient to satisfy WP:GNG. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 02:48, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Martin Sheen. A couple of middling credits in major films, but not much else. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:29, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Try to keep and improve per sources through additional Find sources. If his notabilty were dependent on his family, the nominator's concerns would be valid, but as he has independent notability and coverage, and a healthy body of work as an actor, he easily meets WP:ENT. And yes, just as with his siblings, there will be coverage of him in context to his familial relationships. HOWEVER... I can support a merge/redirect to Martin Sheen as a last resort. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 05:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I perused his roles listed at IMDB, and he didn't seem to have "multiple significant roles in major" productions as ENT states. I suppose significant and major can be subjective terms, but it seems to me like he's only had minor roles. P. D. Cook ^{Talk to me!} 11:10, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed significant and major do seem to be subjective terms. Had his roles all been walk-ons or descriptives, they would be far less major or significant. But even as production would tries to cash in on the Estevez/Sheen family name... his later roles do appear more significant than his earlier. It all falls back to coverage. Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 16:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and redirect to his dad. He is border line on reaching WP:ENT. If his article was longer and contained more info I would say keep. For now he can easily fit under his dad. Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 13:42, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've no problem here with a merge/redirect.... but hoped through expansion and sourcing to give the article its best chance to survive independently. I suppose one has to look at the article and try to ignore the familial relationships. Can it survive without them? Do any of Martin's kids have articles that do not mention him as father? Schmidt, ^{MICHAEL Q.} 16:13, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it can survive on its own. There just is not that much out there about him. His dad has the same birth name as he does so google searches brings up hits but most are about his dad. His roles have been minor. I tried to find info on his song writing with little results. Gtstricky^{Talk or C} 13:20, 6 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

*Keep per WP:ENT. His role in Cadence (film) gets significant press as will be introduced with this Ramon Estevez Also Follows in the Star Tracks of His Father, Latimes.com link. Several other external links have been introduced to the article which should be looked at for preserving versus deletion. ----moreno oso (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Several citations have been introduced into the article as well as external links. In addition, on the talkpage I've documented a URL that has a substantial story about this individual as a director of a play that he directed Martin Sheen. I am just about at my bedtime and recommend that another editor/admin should review the talkpage and incorporate the URL into the article when the Under construction tag appears. ----moreno oso (talk) 05:57, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This link, Upcoming plays, Mark Taper Forum can add substantial information about the subject as a director. It directly confirms the blog mentioned above and needs to be incorporated into the article. Sorry, I'm past my bedtime. ----moreno oso (talk) 07:27, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep per WP:ENT. His role in Cadence (film) gets significant press and was introduced with this Ramon Estevez Also Follows in the Star Tracks of His Father, Latimes.com link. Several other external links have been introduced to the article which should be looked at for preserving versus deletion. More ghits have been generated for the subject by using his correct name, Ramón Estévez. The PDF link above my change of iVote demonstrates the subject has received substantial direct WP:V and WP:RS sources. ----moreno oso (talk) 07:31, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - realistically, I think that notability does rub off on family members. Even without his famous relatives, he's still done enough to pass as an accomplished actor. - Richard Cavell (talk) 13:08, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Notability is not inherited. Individual is non-notable outside of his familial connections. Minor roles fail WP:ENT. SnottyWong ^express 18:24, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - The subject merits a Stong Keep as it passes both WP:GNG and WP:ENT with the addition of the LA Times and Mark Taper citations plus all cites presented. ----moreno oso (talk) 18:36, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: The article under discussion here has been flagged for {{Rescue}} by the Article Rescue Squadron. SnottyWong ^yak 18:25, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I'm satisfied that his film credits are sufficient to establish notability. DWaterson (talk) 02:14, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - meets WP:GNG. Although it seems at first that there's an argument that notability is simply being presumed to be notable based on his relatives, it seems there's enough coverage independent of that relation to keep this. Claritas § 10:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Certainly notable on his own, and the famous relatives only enhance that. I've heard of him and was surprised to see him listed here. JonnyQ123 (talk) 20:35, 10 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.