Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Reduction of working hours in France

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. There is general agreement among participants that the topic is notable. There is considerable disagreement as to how to organize it and related articles. Various proposed mergers have been proposed, none have consensus, and some involve changes to articles (besides the proposed targets) not being discussed here. As such, deletion is off the table, and I find it unlikely that AfD will converge on a single merger. A broader reorganization is better discussed on one of the talk pages: AfD is poorly suited to handle that. Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:44, 3 August 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Reduction of working hours in France

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There is no indication the reduction of working hours in France specifically is notable per GNG. The current article amalgamates various historical information in WP:OR/WP:SYNTH fashion. The only topical source cited explains that the reduction of working hours is a global phenomenon. This is further corroborated by the highly cited paper Huberman, Michael; Minns, Chris (2007). "The times they are not changin': Days and hours of work in Old and New Worlds, 1870–2000" (PDF). Explorations in Economic History. 44 (4): 538–567. doi:10.1016/j.eeh.2007.03.002. which supports the same conclusion. JBchrch talk 12:36, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

@closer: a merge to French labour law is fine by me. JBchrch talk 18:00, 26 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Economics and France. JBchrch talk 12:36, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Law and Social science. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 16:41, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Merge a summary into Working time to the extent these (mostly primary) sources would be useful there. No indication of independent notability. —Rutebega (talk) 17:47, 20 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, this appears to be an unattributed translation of two of the four sections (lead and timeline) of the frwiki article on the same subject, fr:Réduction du temps de travail en France. That said, that part at least would be fairly easily corrected.
I think there is a reasonable amount of source material that addresses the case of France specifically, such as
- Dufour, Christian (2006). "Reduction of working time in France: a lone knight". In Keune, Maarten; Galgoczi, Bela (eds.). Collective bargaining on working time: recent European experiences (PDF). Brussels: European Trade Union Institute. ISBN 978-2-87452-014-3. Archived (PDF) from the original on 2025-01-10.
- Lallement, Michel (16 July 2009). "Les régulations du temps de travail en France". Informations sociales. 153 (3): 56–64. doi:10.3917/inso.153.0056.
- Michon, François (25 March 2009). From "Working Less for More Jobs" to "Working more for More Money": Recent Development and Issues on Working Time in France. JILPT Workshop on Working Time. Business Labor Trends. JILPT. pp. 12–14.
- Pinaud, Henri (12 January 2018) [Print version first published 2003]. "Worker Participation in the Reduction of Working Hours in France". In Gold, Michael (ed.). New Frontiers of Democratic Participation at Work (1 ed.). Routledge. pp. 224–248. ISBN 978-1-315-19819-4.
There also being sources that address working hours in general would not contradict that. Indeed, while not all sources covering working hours see fit to break it up into region specific reports, there are plenty that do, and those reports address this specific subtopic directly and in-detail as we require. While the main article (at slightly over 6000 readable prose words) is not quite at the point of a SIZESPLIT, I'm reasonably confident that there is sufficient source material available now to expand the article to an appropriate level that a standalone article is appropriate under WP:PAGEDECIDE. However I believe this is more appropriately covered at Working hours in France, for consistency and concision, with the correspondingly broader scope. Another thing to note is that RTT also refers to a statutory 35 hour work week in the early 2000s (see, for example, the JILPT). While it may form a significant part of this subtopic, I think it would be better to have the broader scope, and it is not quite at the point where I would think spinning out an article on that specific policy appropriate. Keep and move. Alpha3031 (t • c) 11:44, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Here are a couple of other interesting ones IMO:
Fagnani, Jeanne; Letablier, Marie-Thérèse (1 January 2007). "The French 35-Hour Working Law and the Work–Life Balance of Parents: Friend or Foe?". In Perrons, Diane (ed.). Gender Divisions and Working Time in the New Economy: Changing Patterns of Work, Care and Public Policy in Europe and North America. Edward Elgar. doi:10.4337/9781845428976.00013. ISBN 978-1-84542-897-6. (mostly about the specific 35 hour law, as you can imagine given the chapter title)

Askenazy, Philippe (1 March 2013). "Working time regulation in France from 1996 to 2012". Cambridge Journal of Economics. 37 (2): 323–347. doi:10.1093/cje/bes084.

Thoemmes, Jens (26 August 2024). Time autonomy and work in France, Germany, and China: historical insights and emerging trends. Lanham: Lexington Books. ISBN 9781666969092. (this one has a different focus for once, comparing Germany and France)
Alpha3031 (t • c) 12:10, 21 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree that French labour law is an appropriate merge destination, as per WP:NOPAGE the relevant deciding factor is What sourcing is available now? (emphasis mine) not what content we currently have on the subject. Even if our current article on the broader subject is essentially a stub, the topic itself is expansive, and if a merge is enforced we would either place undue weight on this subtopic (because even with half a dozen sources on the subtopic, the number that would cover French labour law in general would be much, much more) or be required to cut this down to the point where we could not possibly do the at least half a dozen sources that address this topic, directly and in detail, justice. I do, however, think (per my previous comment on RTT) that 35-hour workweek has sufficient overlap that we can cover that in the same article. Therefore, I would revise to merge those two articles either to Working hours in France, or a reverse merge, from that article to this one, but oppose merge to French labour law. In any case, there's no reason a merge needs to be discussed at AfD. Alpha3031 (t • c) 06:06, 31 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per Alpha, altho the article could use some work. This has been an issue in French elections and France is notable for its labor regulations, which would be a good article if it isnt already. ... Ha, it is: French labour law Metallurgist (talk) 03:37, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Metallurgist: Would you support a merge with French labour law? JBchrch talk 19:45, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, or Reduction of hours of work, or both. Metallurgist (talk) 19:57, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Satisfies WP:GNG. This article contains information associated with the subject. It is translated from French. It has pages in French, Spanish and three other languages. Taraa Scott (talk) 15:37, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Noting here that the other pages are not focused on France aside the French one. JBchrch talk 19:46, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
There is also Reduction of hours of work, which is a disamb. Metallurgist (talk) 19:57, 24 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to French labour law. I have no doubt that the subject is notable, per Alpha3031's sources. But I will also note that French labour law, of which this is certainly a subtopic, is woefully sparse. If we were hypothetically discussing a split of this topic from French labour law, the discussion would be strongly trending in the other direction – against a split. The relevant guideline, WP:SIZERULE, is not at all an issue, and covering these topics together is what's best for our readers. So I don't see why, despite AfD being hyper-focused on notability, we shouldn't do the same here. Toadspike [Talk] 18:15, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]
This is a very good argument. Metallurgist (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: No consensus, we have arguments to Delete, Keep and Merge.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 21:37, 27 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Changing to merge to French labour law per toadspike and jbchrch, and also could put the same in Reduction of hours of work somehow. Metallurgist (talk) 20:01, 30 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.