Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Revolt Motors

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. ✗plicit 01:56, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Revolt Motors

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Fails WP:NCORP, WP:NPOV and WP:SIGCOV and in the current form is full of puffery; WP:PUFF; which we can easily deduce by looking at these texts - 1:"The Revolt bikes were the first electric motorcycles to find mass appeal in India", 2: "The fan base of the company are known as Revolters.", 3: "While Revolt is so far the only electric motorcycle brand to have gained traction in India". Also, we should consider this point: Revolt Motors is a sub-entity of RattanIndia, the wiki of which has been recently deleted (via AfD) because of the possible involvement of senior management staff in the creation and updation of the Wikipedia pages; WP:COI/WP:UPE. Overall, it seems to be a part of a coordinated effort by the same group/team. Hence, calling for an AfD discussion. - Hatchens (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. Hatchens (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Hatchens (talk) 03:37, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hatchens

In future, could I tentatively suggest that it might be an idea to engage in a little bit of background research before casting aspersions such as '...overall, it seems to be a part of a coordinated effort by the same group/team.?'

I've been editing on Wikipedia for a very long time. If you look at my extensive edit history, it is pretty obvious that I have nothing to do with RattanIndia, I am not Indian, and indeed, I've never even been to the country. I didn't know anything about RattanIndia until they bought a stake in Revolt Motors earlier this year.

If you did a bit of digging, you'd notice I have created three Wiki articles within the past month: Revolt Motors, Super Soco, Vmoto. What do they have in common?

All three are electric motorcycle companies... which, not coincidently, happens to be one of my chief areas of interest.

Please note, that I have no problem with someone marking a page that I create as 'nominated for deletion'. It is part of the process.

But if you are going to cast aspersions about the motives of editors, it would be polite to first do a little bit of homework, and at least check if the accusations might hold any water. Inchiquin (talk) 05:38, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The company looks notable based on the page's references. All that's needed is a bit of a cleanup. Waddles 🗩 🖉 17:59, 14 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There is some coverage but not sufficient for WP:CORPDEPTH. It's also kind of rare for three old companies to become notable. Exceptions are always there of course. Nomadicghumakkad (talk) 01:55, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... an 'old company'? It looks like you haven't done your homework, Nomadicghumakkad. The company was founded in 2017. Inchiquin (talk) 22:29, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended content

I don't think it is particualrly difficult to find in-depth articles on Revolt Motors, however, for the benefit of the time-poor, here is a feature article on the company from a credible website: "Revolt Motors RV 400: All you need to know" by Siddharth Chauhan, published on Tech Radar on 18 June, 2019. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Inchiquin (talk • contribs) 23:13, 15 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Inchiquin: Please don't add random headers like this, it breaks the AfD log page. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄)

Sorry about that, I didn't realise.Inchiquin (talk) 04:54, 16 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 02:13, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Answering to creator's question - "If you did a bit of digging, you'd notice I have created three Wiki articles within the past month: Revolt Motors, Super Soco, Vmoto. What do they have in common?" - all three are connected; Revolt Motors sells re-badged Super Soco electric bikes in India and Vmoto is the primary distributor of same Super Soco electric bikes in Australia. I recommend, Kindly declare WP:COI at your user page. -Hatchens (talk) 03:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Extended content

Hatchens, the allegations you are throwing around are unfounded. I do find it curious that you have not mentioned Super Soco in your comment above. I don't know if you are aware of this, but Super Soco and Vmoto are currently in competition with one another. Need I comment further?

Please note you have previously alleged that I was paid by RattanIndia, you are now suggesting that I am paid by Vmoto or Super Soco. I have created these articles partly because they are significant organisations, but mostly because I am interested in electric motorcycles. Please note that AGF is a fundamental principle on Wikipedia.

Yes, I do like Super Soco bikes, that is the 'common thread' as to why I created these articles. However, I don't just like Super Soco bikes. I also like those of Fonzi Electric and Stealth, as well as European companies such as the Spanish electric motorcycle company Silence, and innovative e-bike companies, such as the French start-up Teebike. Unfortunately, these organisations are not significant enough to warrant articles on Wikipedia, which is why I have focused my efforts on Super Soco, Revolt and Vmoto.

I might note that both the articles on Super Soco and Revolt Motors have sections which discuss the main competitors, such as Ola Electric, Askoll, and Niu Technologies, including links to the pages. The articles are obviously not written as puff pieces, and I think most viewers of the pages agree.

Your comment about WP:COI was not posted in good faith, as you are well aware. Inchiquin (talk) 04:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You are contradicting your edits. Now, how come - "Super Soco and Vmoto are currently in competition with one another"? - so who added this partnership statement https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Vmoto&diff=1059540130&oldid=1059520623 at Vmoto's page? Take your time to think and then comment. In the meanwhile, let me help you out further; Proof of Super Soco and Vmoto collaboration/partnership - ; https://www.motoroids.com/news/could-this-turn-out-to-be-revolts-next-electric-motorcycle/ and Proof of Revolt Motors selling re-badged Super Soco electric bikes in India; https://www.motorbeam.com/revolt-rv-400-clone-is-super-soco-chinese-bike/. Also, your involvement at RattanIndia AfD has been duly noted. You're requested to declare WP:COI (voluntarily) at your user page or the talk pages of Revolt Motors, Super Soco, and Vmoto. -Hatchens (talk) 07:58, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hatchens.

To begin with, I feel obliged to point out that it is poor practice to quote edits, throwing them around in arguments as if to imply that they are evidence of the viewpoint of an editor.

They are no such thing. Edits on Wikipedia always should be referenced, and thus an edit should be reflective of the views of the sources, not the editor.

Secondly, I would suggest you need to be very cautious about how you interpret sources you find on the internet in relation to Super Soco. The relationship between Vmoto and Super Soco is extremely confusing, and most writers don't understand it. The relationship between Revolt Motors and Vmoto/Super Soco is even more cryptic.

For this reason, I am quite sceptical about your claims about there being a relationship between Revolt Motors and Vmoto/Super Soco. I don't doubt that there are sources that claim there is a relationship between the companies, but whether the writers of the pieces (such as the one you quoted above) are right or not, is another matter. Personally, I have never come across any solid evidence of a relationship between Super Soco and Revolt, although it is hard to ignore the similarity of the look of the Super Soco/Revolt bikes, hence the speculation you find on various websites, as noted above.

These companies are very hard to understand. I refer you to my comments on the Vmoto page of 7/12/21.

...Alright, allow me a minute or two, and I'll explain the thought processes underlying the creation of this article, and this should shed some light onto the question of meeting the criteria of notability.

A few weeks ago I created the article on Super Soco, a popular brand of electric motorcycle. At the corporate level, the Super Soco brand is controlled by a number entities with a somewhat Delphic relationship, which is not particularly easy to untangle. So when I booted the article on Super Soco, I opted to focus on the brand, side-stepping the thorny question of which group was in control of the brand.

After creating the Super Soco article, I started to unpick the details, and I realised that the approach that I took on the page was probably wrong...

So, yes... in some regards you are right. What I stated in my previous post didn't marry with many of my edits in the post. That's because I didn't fully understand the company structure when I first posted the 'Super Soco' article, and I still don't entirely understand what is going on. (While I'm on the topic, I might note that the comment you quoted ' Vmoto Soco also became the exclusive manufacturer of the Super Soco motorcycle range' was taken from the website that is referenced directly after the comment. It isn't my opinion, and thus I am not contradicting myself. That is the point of sources on Wikipedia.)

By the way let me show you something that seems rather important in relation to your line of argument, though you don't seem to be aware of.

It is a press release by Super Soco on the 1st of December:

SHANGHAI, Dec. 1, 2021 /PRNewswire/ -- The world's largest motorcycle trade expo EICMA, ended on November 28 in Milan, Italy. During the event, SUPERSOCO, a world-renowned and recognized electric motorcycle brand, discovered that a company exhibited, without permission, many of SUPERSOCO's best-selling models in violation of its exclusive appearance patents and intellectual property rights, such as CPX/TC MAX/CU/VS1, and utilized the SUPERSOCO brand and some of its models for media communications. | see article

So, what do you think is going on there?. That doesn't sound very chummy. Now, I should note that Vmoto were at that event - as noted in the article of the same name- so it is pretty clear that the statement was directed at Vmoto.

Which illustrates that, what was stated in my post above is correct: Vmoto and Super Soco are competitors. The notion that you are suggesting, that these companies are in some kind of parent-child relationship, is not factually accurate. They are not subsidiaries, on the contrary, they seem to be engaged in an ugly turf-war.

I might note also, all the evidence indicates that Revolt Motors and Vmoto are likewise independent companies that are competitors, Revolt Motors is not a subsidiary of either Super Soco or Vmoto, as you seem to suggest.

In summary, your arguments around WP:COI don't hold up. The three companies are independent entities, they are not subsidiaries of each other, as you keep suggesting, and writing about the three companies is not a conflict of interest, no more than so than an editor who happens to write about two or more motorcycle or car companies.

In future, I would suggest you need to be very careful about evaluating source material. I don't understand these companies entirely, and you don't either, so please don't make allegations that an editor has got a conflict of interest etc, etc if you haven't got a good grasp of a complicated subject. Inchiquin (talk) 13:45, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let's hold the horses and wait for others' assessment. -Hatchens (talk) 17:03, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: I note the creating editor's comment that significant coverage is easy to find. Per WP:HEY I suggest they both find it and use it to enhance the article. The coverage there at present is, in the main, churnalism. It has not been proven to pass WP:NCORP. Ping me when the referencing is significantly improved and I will revisit my opinion Fiddle^Timtrent Faddle^Talk to me 10:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete WP:NCORP requires multiple sources (at least two) of deep or significant coverage with in-depth information *on the company* and (this bit is important!) containing "Independent Content". "Independent content", in order to count towards establishing notability, must include original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject. That means, nothing that relies on company information or announcements or interviews, etc. None of the references in the article meet the criteria. They're either a couple of lines with no in-depth information or regurgitated announcements. I have been unable to find any references that meet NCORP criteria, topic fails WP:NCORP. HighKing⁺⁺ 12:35, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Delete — the wall of text isn’t helpful neither does it do any good, to roughly paraphrase one of Phil Bridger quotes, if you need that many words to prove something is notable then it is probably indicative of the inverse. Celestina007 (talk) 17:57, 24 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.