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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rusty trombone (3rd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Jaranda wat's sup 20:39, 14 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rusty trombone

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AfDs for this article:
Rusty trombone (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

Following my nomination against Cleveland steamer, I thought it'd be time to tackle this one as well. Essentially, most of the same arguments that I put forward in that AfD apply here as well. The article is essentially a dictionary definition ("performing analingus and a handjob on a man simultaneously" is all that it is once you strip away the original research) with an attached set of trivial references in culture. This article does not have non-trivial (the operative word being "trivial") multiple reliable published sources about it. To quote Wikipedia:Notability, A topic is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but less than exclusive. Note 1: Examples: The 360-page book by Sobel and the 528-page book by Black on IBM are plainly non-trivial. The one sentence mention by Walker of the band Three Blind Mice in a biography of Bill Clinton (Martin Walker. "Tough love child of Kennedy", The Guardian, 1992-01-06. ) is plainly trivial. All of the references here are merely trivial, passing mentions of the term. See the guidelines for articles about 'in popular culture' articles, which is all that this is with a dicdef (which can be explained in less than ten words) attached. To anyone who is thinking about keeping this article, consider also whether a deletion review of "over the hill" (Wiktionary definition) would be appropriate, as the term "over the hill" probably appears in mainstream media (i.e the lyrics to the One Foot in the Grave theme song) more than "rusty trombone", yet would still read as a slang dicdef with trivia attached. The sexual act itself is probably extremely uncommon, and certainly does not merit its own article. Belongs in Wiktionary with a short mention in the analingus article, that is, if there are any reliable sources that even define the term. Delete. h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 17:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

my point is that it does not have to be common; it just has to be shown to exist and have been noticed. DGG (talk) 20:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're not really taking into account the full implications of my initial argument.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 21:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I feel the need to state that AfD is not a vote and it does not matter how many AfD nominations there have been previously. If you're basing your arguments on invalid inclusion criteria that do not fit with policies and guidelines, then the closing admin has no reason to accept them when weighing up the debate at the end.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 21:04, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I feel the need to take issue with the statement "verifiability is more important than truth on Wikipedia". Are you honestly saying that if there were enough sources to veryfy that Julian Clary was a rampant heterosexual with 4 wives and 63 children, the truth would be unimportant? Jcuk 22:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. That's why we have the reliable sources guideline to keep out mistruths, gossip and factual inaccuracies. Your example doesn't really work as we could add it to his article that "it is claimed that he is heterosexual with wives and children..." if the sources were thought to be reliable and were multiple.-h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 00:25, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as per rational previously stated. The nominator seems to be stretching wikipedia policy. This isn't a topic I would truly be interesting in but it has been mentioned in numerous cited places. Whether the act is common or not is absolutely immaterial. For someone that seems to criticize other peopels arguments, you should be aware of it. Then again, from what has been written. Even if the AFD is turned down, you will simply re-nominate. Ce'st la vie. CraigMonroe 23:06, 8 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment What sources do you want? Porn sites??? If you want something that is reliable, do a quick yahoo search. I got 77,000 hits and numerous photos, and several places with definitions. However, most of these don't seem quite appropriate for use as sources. Whether you like it or not, the topic meets WP:V the issue is finding suitable sources; they are out there. So the proper thing to do would be tag it for a clean-up--not AFD. The article has already improved the last 24 hours. It can still be made better. CraigMonroe 01:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete -- all of the "references" in the article are trivial. Fails to cite any reliable sources which either assert, or support, notability. --Haemo 00:53, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment I disagree. The sourcing may need some fixing but it does assert notability. It is a relativelly common cultural reference in numerous stand-up acts, and a few television shows. This is enough to make it notable--note these were all sourced by reliable sources. What more do you want on that issue?CraigMonroe 01:02, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
CommentYou seem to be misunderstanding the WP:Trivia guideline. The intent of the rule was to apply to lists of trivia:
"Lists of miscellaneous information can be useful for developing a new article, as it sets a low bar for novice contributors to add information without having to keep in mind article organization or presentation — they can just add a new fact to the list. However, as articles grow, these lists become increasingly disorganized and difficult to read."
The guideline even goes further, it states if the lists are found, the information should be incorporated in the article's paragraphs:
"Don't simply remove such sections; it may be possible to integrate some items into the article in a more organized fashion."
Note how the guidlines even say removal of such sections is innappropriate. It seems as if you are misunderstanding the rules. Not to mention, attempting to get into a wikipedia policy debate which has been occuring for years on the issue of whether Wikipedia should even contain trivia. As for now, the guidelines explicitly allow it. This is all that matters. Again, part of the notability of this topic is its pop-cultural signifigance. There are sources to back this up. CraigMonroe 13:51, 9 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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