- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was Keep Non-Admin Closure. Tiddly-Tom 07:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
athlete who has no standing outside Donegal; not known in Ireland. No internationals for Ireland to speak off and performances far short of world class standards in the events she competed in. Ireland is a small country and a multiple national record holder/ champion should not automatically be listed on wikipedia without regard to the distance/ time that he or she achieved --213.202.138.250
- I have completed this nomination on behalf of the anonymous editor. Natalie (talk) 01:02, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Badly needs references, but a national champion athlete in an internationally recognized sport is an encyclopedic biography subject. Quale (talk) 16:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Refs available at Google News. I've put one in the article that shows that her success goes beyond Ireland, even though that's not necessary. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Have added a couple more links to the article, she clearly meets the main notability standard. Davewild (talk) 20:39, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply- She is the Irish record holder in the pentathlon but her mark is 1897 points below the world record which is a huge margin at that level; this comment has recently been removed from the text of the article. Likewise her High Jump best is 34 centimetres below the world record. Again this is a huge gap. The listing on the IAAF website and the fact she compted at a Grand Prix in the UK prove absolutely nothing. All the IAAF website does is set out those less than impressive standards the 1.75m high jump. Irish athletes get invited to meetings in the UK. Wow- thats a surprise. Other than that this is a lady who never went to a European, World or Olympics championship does not have any meaningful secondary sources lsited and is unknown outside Donegal. Ireland is a small country and not every multiple national champion is of import such that they should be on Wikipedia. 1897 points below world record in one instance and 34 centimetres in another- think about it. --78.16.64.211 (talk) 23:51, 5 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply. Maybe its not much that she got invited to a UK athletics meeting, but that's not what the article, and the source, say. They say that she won two events at a major UK athletics meeting. Phil Bridger (talk) 00:34, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply It's not much no: it doesn't say what she did in the high jump but it obviously wasn't more than 1.75 metres; in the triple jump she is listed as winning in 12.44 metres. The world record in the triple jump is 3.06 metres more than that; and as stated in the high jump it is 34 cm more i.e 2.09 metres. It seems unlikely that anyone other than British and Irish athletes were competing in these two events in light of the poor distances that were performed which allowed her to win the event. The article also now has the air of protesting too much as to how good Ms. Foley is. There are no other comprable entries of track and field athletes, that I have seen, where there is such a focus on the fast that the runner or jumper once won 2 events at a non-championship meeting. --78.16.64.211 (talk) 09:40, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't really matter if she was only competing against British and Irish runners - she was a national champion, which is enough to satisfy our notability requirements. She wouldn't even have to be a champion: "Competitors and coaches who have competed in a fully professional league, or a competition of equivalent standing in a non-league sport such as swimming, golf or tennis" is the only standard. Natalie (talk) 14:38, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply No your wrong; was not a profesisonal athlete so the standard is:
Competitors and coaches who have competed at the highest level in amateur sports (who meet the general criteria of secondary sources published about them). And she doesn't meet this. So it's a delete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.125.76.23 (talk) 21:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- How does she not meet that standard? She meets the general secondary source criteria, and was a national champion in several different events. What else are you looking for? Natalie (talk) 21:46, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply- I'm not looking for anything as she is a 12.44 metres triple jumper and 1.75cm high jumper (3.06 metres and 34 centimetres shy of world record)- there is no hidden answer she plain should not be on wikipedia. But it intrigues me how in effect you can say that she compted at the highest level and met secondary sources. Mere fact she was a multiple-national champion in a country of 4 million people where athletics is a minority sport says nothing in of itself. --194.125.76.23 (talk) 21:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, on this website it does. That's the notability standard, and this person meets it. If you wish to change that your best bet would be to start at Wikipedia: Notability. Natalie (talk) 23:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - many times over national athletics champion meets notability. matt91486 (talk) 23:21, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - per WP:BIO. Chris (talk) 23:54, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - the same set of IPs who are trying to delete this article are also trying to delete the Aoife Hoey (bobsleigh) article. Most of them are WP:SPA. Chris (talk) 23:56, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - meets WP:BIO and references from reliable sources are available -- Whpq (talk) 01:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment- The editor making the WP:SPA point repeatedly is shooting the messenger not the message. A national champion in Ireland has not competed at the highest level; to compete at the highest level you would have to go outside that State and compete internationally the very low marks mentioned above in relation to Foley's jumps are relevant; she is not notable. The logic and interpretation being set out is wromg; who would you propose leaving off wikipedia. There are not really any secondary sources for this lady and she seems a parochial figure who has been overpromoted by those who do not undertsand athletics and are forgetting that not all national champions are equal. This is not a British, German or American national champion this is someone who won titles in a not very competitive era in Irish athletics by jumping sub-international heights and distances. Very strong delete. --83.71.168.81 (talk) 11:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, international competition isn't the standard at all. There are many articles on Wikipedia concerning athletes that have competed in the highest level within their own countries and that otherwise meet the notability standard. Natalie (talk) 14:36, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And in this circumstance that is not an appropriate way of looking at it giving regard to the sport involved; the performances recorded and the country same was done in.--194.125.71.53 (talk) 18:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- "the performances recorded and the country same was done in." This sentence doesn't really make any sense. Could you elaborate? Natalie (talk) 19:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not sure what confuses you about that remark. The thrust is that Ireland is a small country; athletics is a minority sport there and some years undistinguished people become national champion. In some eras they win more than one title. The argument being made by the one size fits all argument that if you have won 1,2, 3, Irish national titles or whatever benchmark you want to read into the wikipedia requirements, that doesn't automatically cut it. You have to look at whether someone is a 12.5 metres jumper or a 14.5 metre jumper. Some people who have commented above don't seem to understand how low Foley's bests are for an athlete who is asserted to be notable--194.125.71.53 (talk) 20:34, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Looking at your sentence again it seems like you wanted a comma instead of a semicolon. As a dependent clause it makes sense, but as it was written as an independent clause it was missing several important things, like a subject. Anyway, I understand your point about the standards within specific countries, but we don't have country-specific standards for notability. The standard is the same across the board. Natalie (talk) 20:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- And in this circumstance that is not an appropriate way of looking at it giving regard to the sport involved; the performances recorded and the country same was done in.--194.125.71.53 (talk) 18:23, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - The WP:BIO still applies to this article. Also, I am not shooting the messenger on this issue, but every time an edit is applied to an anonymous IP user, it leaves a mark on edits. These edits can be traced. Chris (talk) 21:20, 7 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Clearly meets notability requirement for athletes. Edward321 (talk) 05:48, 8 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.