- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. LFaraone 02:55, 4 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Slave Iron Bit (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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The evidence supporting this article is scant indeed. The physical description of the device is sourced to a blog, which is by its nature not a reliable source. The historical evidence refers to several devices that are called collars, but which the author insists are really this "iron bit" device, with no evidence to back up this connection. The Social Implications section appears to be the author's own conclusion, which would constitute original research. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 13:55, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:24, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - Poorly sourced. The big question here is whether the device actually existed. The source referring to an "iron collar" says nothing whatsoever about an "iron bit." Bad sourcing can be fixed; hoaxing is quite another matter. I don't have time to delve today, but I would think this decision should first target whether such an alleged device even existed outside of the realm of literary fiction. Carrite (talk) 16:06, 19 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —Theopolisme (talk) 00:21, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I am not seeing evidence that this purported device ever existed. Some slaves were held in iron collars beyond a doubt; there seems to be no reliable source demonstrating that some were bitted like horses. (It's illogical to do that, it would accomplish nothing... Humans did not pull plows or carts...)Carrite (talk) 02:12, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]- Comment. Poorly sourced indeed. I think this may be a case of WP:OR, sadly. Advice for the author: publish an academic or mainstream paper on this, then come back. Or find betters refs in secondary source. Ps. Based on User:AP_EN_4005#Student_Selections, this seems to be a student creation. Not listed at any Wikipedia edu program, seems like a regular rogue education assignment, by a well meaning but inexperienced teacher, with the predictable result (some student work deleted). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:55, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep The article needs cleanup, but is subject is not a hoax and has at least brief coverage in several books. The punishment of a slave with an "iron bit" is described in the book "Martha Washington, first lady of liberty," which shows up when you click the search option at the beginning of this AFD. If the google book search is modified to slave "iron bit" then more books are found describing it: "Animal Advocacy and Englishwomen, 1780-1900: Patriots, Nation, and Empire" By Moira Ferguson. "Seasoned to the Country: Slavery in the life of Benjamin Franklin" By Marilyn Wise discusses it. It is described in "Rough crossings" . More books mentioning the "Iron bit" as used on slaves are found at an appropriate Google book search: [1]. It is not a hoax at all. But mere existence does not establish notability. There seem to be enough good sources to turn the present article into a short encyclopedic article, but some conjecture and OR should be edited out and only reliable sources used. Edison (talk) 14:26, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Sources provided by Edison seem compelling, the new book by Wise, although self-published, seems best of the lot, frankly. Carrite (talk) 17:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep -- This is highly unpleasnt subject, but potentially encyclopaedic. It may need improvement, but that is no reason for deletion. Peterkingiron (talk) 15:51, 30 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.