- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result of the debate was Keep pschemp | talk 01:45, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about a book with a tentative existence. The fourth volume (specifically) of the Tahrirolvasyleh (or Tahrir al-vasilah) shows little proof of existence. What we have is:
- the link to the book on a Greek Nationalist site.
- A few mentions on anti-Islamic websites and the most notable source I saw was Islam Exposed which apparently quotes it per an Amazon review. I could not find it for sale.
- There doesn't appear to be an English translation.
- I can't find commentaries on the book in English from any reliable source.
Pretty much it seems like trying to demonize Khomeini. So, do I know if it really exists or not? Well, I'm not fully convinced either way... but right now it's an attack page and we have no evidence to believe it definitively exists. So, it really needs to be deleted unless we can get definitive and neutral references to it. I've searched my library's databases, the internet, etc. and I get very little. This delete/remake/delete has gone on for a while and this will hoepfully clear things up maybe the wider community knows more about this. gren グレン 06:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DeleteKeep (still need something more credible) if we can't get any real neutral sources. gren グレン 06:52, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]DeleteKeep, but clean up and mention that it is probably not really written by him. --Khoikhoi 07:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]- Comment This is going to be very difficult. Is the book a terrible Anti-Khomeni slur and falsehood, or is the AFD an attempt to supress the truth by pro-Khomeni editors? I have absolutely no idea. (That was a rhetorical question by the way, please don't reply on my talk page as it's unlikely I will vote either way on this one, and I'm not challenging anyone's good faith - I'm sure those of you in the know will appreciate and understand that the dilemna is exactly as I have posted it). How to verify the article if many relevant sources are not in English? Again, no idea. No vote from me because it's a subject I know nothing about. --kingboyk 07:27, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I had a similar dilemma at the beginning. My answer was: if it's a page and information is being contested then we need strong sources. If there are none it should be gone. If some surface it should be recreated. gren グレン 07:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd mostly agree, provided this AFD were not used as grounds for deleting future recreations if the evidence has changed. Very fair comment you make though. --kingboyk 07:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I had a similar dilemma at the beginning. My answer was: if it's a page and information is being contested then we need strong sources. If there are none it should be gone. If some surface it should be recreated. gren グレン 07:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DeleteKeep;scurrilous attack page. I don't like Khomeini, but fair is fair.Zora 07:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]- Lukas changed my mind! Now that the page is cleaned up (though it could use some more work), its existence is a useful refutation to the rumors re the content of the book. Would be nice if some editor who can read Persian would add more content. Also, publisher should probably be Dar ul Ulum, or something like that. Zora 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I believe that Khomeini wrote a book; I'd wager that the picture and the download ARE that book. I also believe that the Iranian revolutionaries lowered the age of marriage to nine, based on hadith purporting to come from Aisha claiming that she was only nine when she married Muhammad. Apparently it was believed that having a minimum age of marriage for girls that was greater than nine was a slur upon the prophet. Given that the hadith are sourced to Aisha, whom the Shi'a detest, giving them credence seems pointless to me. But ... whoever wrote the text claiming that Khomeini endorsed pedophilia, bestiality, homosexuality, and gosh-knows-what-else was extrapolating from that one fact and saying, "Well, if he endorses sex with nine year old girls, he must endorse sex with anything and everything!" Which there is no reason to believe. Clear fabrication. Otherwise the revolutionaries would not have been killing homosexuals and stoning adulterers. Zora 07:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Lukas changed my mind! Now that the page is cleaned up (though it could use some more work), its existence is a useful refutation to the rumors re the content of the book. Would be nice if some editor who can read Persian would add more content. Also, publisher should probably be Dar ul Ulum, or something like that. Zora 11:34, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
DeleteKeep, not a significant book, but we can keep it if we have neutral sources.--Mitso Bel10:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]- Keep, in the NPOV-tidied-up version made since this poll started. I don't understand the doubts about the "existence" of this book (the nominator speaks of a disputed "fourth volume" but the article doesn't even mention it has more than one in the first place. Another person on the talk page who advocates deletion says that it's a "very ordinary book" - so if he's actually read it, it must exist?!) And as for notability, Khomeini is himself so notable that I'd assume just about anything he wrote would qualify. The very fact that people here on Wikipedia get hot-headed about it shows me that there's something to it. A very cursory Google search yields these among dozens of pages apparently quoting the book (I assume that the title transliterated as "Tahrir al-wasilah" is the same work; correct me if I'm wrong): [1] [2] [3] [4] Lukas (T.|@) 11:10, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Lukas, There is a tradition in Shia clerical system: Any cleric who reaches to the highest level will write a book in which he will narrate the basic rules of Islam that are used for every day life of Muslims. Any cleric like Khomeini, would sit down and rewrite what his teachers wrote previously. If you look at these books throughout the history you will see that even the style of these books and wording are conserved. These are not philosophical books and there is no novelty in it. They have to write such book when they recieve the title of Marja. In summary this is a very routine work by any marja, very basic islamic rules, copied from previous sources and contains no novelty. If the issues are controversial, it has nothing to do with Khomeini. All other Marja have the same issues in their book. If you want to see what I am trying to say, take a look at the sources that you yourself provided. You see that Ayatollah Lankarani is rewriting this book. This is a knwon tradition. However Khomeini has some books that are very novel and very controverisial. These books are his personal ideas. He did not copy these books from previous works. For example, Khomeini is known for his novel and controversial works on velayate faqih. His main books are listed at the end of his page. User:CltFn who is insisting to have this article, would like to take one paragraph of this book (out of several volumes) and say that Khomeini was advertising sex with animals !!! If there exist such a thing in this book or similar books, it is not the author's problem. These are islamic rules. And khomeini is just narrating them. They can not change it or add or delete it. --Mitso Bel11:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments - that actually sounds like a great piece of information to be added to the article. It doesn't change the fact that (a) some followers of Shi'a Islam apparently quote this book routinely as an authority on Islamic life, and (b) some detractors of Khomeini have made the book a target of criticism. Both combined make it notable for me. Lukas (T.|@) 11:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Lukas, here is very good link that talks about Khomeini's books including this one.[5] My problem is that the guy who started the page, want to introduce the book as a book on sexulaity! I doubt there exist more than two pages or even two paragraphs in the book about this issue. One can not say the subject of the book or even a very surprising issue in the book is sex with animals ! First of all the subject of the book is fiqh. Second, Khomeini's point on sex is not specific to him. People are surprised because they have never seen Islamic books or they have some political interets. Anyway, why people are surprized about writing two sentence about animal sex. Just search in google. You will find milions of pages about animal sex all by non muslims. I have no problem with having a page on this book. There are lots of pages in wikipedia that are not very significant. But I am worried about political attacks. Why don't they attack other ayatollahs who wrote such things ? Khomeini is neither the first one nor the last one who writes a fiqh book. If we can find an original research work on this book that criticises the issues and khomeini's ideas, we can have a useful page. However all pages provided by User:CltFn are anti-khomeini propaganda. Take care.--Mitso Bel12:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- I've made a quick stab at actually incorporating some of your comments in the article. Needs to be checked. Lukas (T.|@) 12:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Lukas, here is very good link that talks about Khomeini's books including this one.[5] My problem is that the guy who started the page, want to introduce the book as a book on sexulaity! I doubt there exist more than two pages or even two paragraphs in the book about this issue. One can not say the subject of the book or even a very surprising issue in the book is sex with animals ! First of all the subject of the book is fiqh. Second, Khomeini's point on sex is not specific to him. People are surprised because they have never seen Islamic books or they have some political interets. Anyway, why people are surprized about writing two sentence about animal sex. Just search in google. You will find milions of pages about animal sex all by non muslims. I have no problem with having a page on this book. There are lots of pages in wikipedia that are not very significant. But I am worried about political attacks. Why don't they attack other ayatollahs who wrote such things ? Khomeini is neither the first one nor the last one who writes a fiqh book. If we can find an original research work on this book that criticises the issues and khomeini's ideas, we can have a useful page. However all pages provided by User:CltFn are anti-khomeini propaganda. Take care.--Mitso Bel12:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for the comments - that actually sounds like a great piece of information to be added to the article. It doesn't change the fact that (a) some followers of Shi'a Islam apparently quote this book routinely as an authority on Islamic life, and (b) some detractors of Khomeini have made the book a target of criticism. Both combined make it notable for me. Lukas (T.|@) 11:54, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Dear Lukas, There is a tradition in Shia clerical system: Any cleric who reaches to the highest level will write a book in which he will narrate the basic rules of Islam that are used for every day life of Muslims. Any cleric like Khomeini, would sit down and rewrite what his teachers wrote previously. If you look at these books throughout the history you will see that even the style of these books and wording are conserved. These are not philosophical books and there is no novelty in it. They have to write such book when they recieve the title of Marja. In summary this is a very routine work by any marja, very basic islamic rules, copied from previous sources and contains no novelty. If the issues are controversial, it has nothing to do with Khomeini. All other Marja have the same issues in their book. If you want to see what I am trying to say, take a look at the sources that you yourself provided. You see that Ayatollah Lankarani is rewriting this book. This is a knwon tradition. However Khomeini has some books that are very novel and very controverisial. These books are his personal ideas. He did not copy these books from previous works. For example, Khomeini is known for his novel and controversial works on velayate faqih. His main books are listed at the end of his page. User:CltFn who is insisting to have this article, would like to take one paragraph of this book (out of several volumes) and say that Khomeini was advertising sex with animals !!! If there exist such a thing in this book or similar books, it is not the author's problem. These are islamic rules. And khomeini is just narrating them. They can not change it or add or delete it. --Mitso Bel11:40, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Lukas, my reasoning was... we have anti-Islamic sites quoting volume four of this book as saying things about sex with animals, etc. No scholarly source that I could find mentioned it. There was scant information about the book besides on a Shia forum I found "the fourth volume doesn't exist". Here's where I completely disagree with you: "The very fact that people here on Wikipedia get hot-headed about it shows me that there's something to it. A very cursory Google search yields these among dozens of pages apparently quoting the book". It's really not to hard to get fabricated quotes to be thrown around the internet... I mean, we have past examples such as the protocols... so, if we are really going to claim that all of those quotes are from Khomeini we need to see that some qualified source has translated them from this book. This just wreaks of verifiability problems. The fact that there is corroborating evidence from Shia and anti-Shia sites talking about the book's existence gives me more faith the book exists... but what's in it and can anyone who reads Arabic verify the integrity of the text that is linked to? It'd be good to have someone like User:Mustafaa take a look into the text I think. gren グレン 14:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- (Just one more comment:) The pages I found on the net were of people quoting it in an approving fashion, just as a standard reference for Islam morality. Nothing of the polemic sex-with-animals kind. Why doubt that those are correct? Lukas (T.|@) 16:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- The links I found were mostly of the sensationalist kind; however, if the book exists yet the web coverage is unbalanced, Wikipedia has an opportunity here to rectify that. As always, we will try to present both sides of the debate - in a neutral, well rounded way - which would make the article a keeper indeed. The article is much better now, for sure. --kingboyk 20:30, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- (Just one more comment:) The pages I found on the net were of people quoting it in an approving fashion, just as a standard reference for Islam morality. Nothing of the polemic sex-with-animals kind. Why doubt that those are correct? Lukas (T.|@) 16:06, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong keep This is a real book which is highly reflective of Khomeini's character , views and philosophy and is thus very notable. The full version of the book is downloadable in the link at the bottom of the article for those who claim it does not exists--CltFn 13:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- The book does NOT reflect Khomeini's character. It is just a collection of islamic traditional rules. It reflects Islam not Khomeini. The book is by no means an islamic philosophy book. I think you are not familiar with the difference between Islamic philosophy and fiqh. --Sina Kardar13:26, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep --Terence Ong 16:43, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- AfD isn't a vote, it's a discussion. If you're not going to say why it should be kept, there's not much point commenting. Average Earthman 20:19, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Improve Verifiability or Delete. There is no citation. Cdcon 21:23, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep (in)famous author, should warrant an article. Eivind 22:48, 10 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Im not voting. The topic doesnt interest me. But the book exists. I positively assert this. I'll leave quoting it in or out of context to y'all erudites.
The LOC website provides the following info about the book:
LC Control Number: 81216590 Type of Material: Book (Print, Microform, Electronic, etc.) Brief Description: Khomeini, Ruhollah.
Taḥrīr al-wasīlah / li-Rūḥ Allāh al-Mūsawī al-Khumaynī. al-Ṭabʻah 3. [Tehran?] : al-Thawrah al-Thaqāfīyah al-Islāmīyah ; Bayrūt, Lubnān : Tawzīʻ Dār al-Taʻāruf lil-Maṭbūʻāt, 1981. 2 v. ; 25 cm.
CALL NUMBER: LAW ISLAM 7 Khom 1981
Copy 1
-- Request in: Law Library Reading Room (Madison, LM201)
-- Status: Not Charged
Note:
- The book has no ISBN number (as far as I know).
- No translations either (again as far as I know).
- And as a sidenote, last I recall, the Majles raised the female age back up to 13 during Khatami's administration.--Zereshk 00:38, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment, I agree with Zereshk. I also want to raise another related issue: The point is that, the book has become a target for attacks not only in wikipedia but also throughout the web. The book is not a significant book. And I also doubt that Khomeini wrote the book personally. The tradition is like this: A Marja has a group of students. They will go and collect and write the book and even they will publish it and then they will bring one copy to the Marja for his signature. He will go through the book and will sign it and then the book will be distributed. The reason is that the content of the book is not new. Any Marja has to have such a book and that is more of a formality. In these books there are many thing that are not practiced like eating insects. Neither khomeini nor any other Iranian eat insects. But these issues are usually in such books because 1400 years ago prophet talked about these things. The same is true for sex. But some anti-khomeini guys want to abuse it and say that khomeini was himself such a guy. If you do not believe in me see this wikipedia page which is initiated by User:CtlFn who also initiated Tahrirolvasyleh. The person in the picture is NOT khomeini ! But he is insisting that he is khomeini ! For any Iranian this is clear that the guy in the picture is not khomeini. It is so obvious. This is the story. But CltFn neither proves his claim that the guy in the picture is Khomeini , nor accepts what Iranian wikipedians are saying. If one brings this picture to iran and shows it to a random Iranian and insists that this is a picture of khomeini, people may think the guy is an idiot. --Mitso Bel10:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- ...which is really quite a strong argument for keeping this article, and keeping this stuff out of the Khomeini article (with just a brief mention and a link) whilst it's still in dispute. I've had a word with that user today as he approached 3RR, and the existence of this article was one reason I gave to him for laying off Khomeini. --kingboyk 10:31, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment, I agree with Zereshk. I also want to raise another related issue: The point is that, the book has become a target for attacks not only in wikipedia but also throughout the web. The book is not a significant book. And I also doubt that Khomeini wrote the book personally. The tradition is like this: A Marja has a group of students. They will go and collect and write the book and even they will publish it and then they will bring one copy to the Marja for his signature. He will go through the book and will sign it and then the book will be distributed. The reason is that the content of the book is not new. Any Marja has to have such a book and that is more of a formality. In these books there are many thing that are not practiced like eating insects. Neither khomeini nor any other Iranian eat insects. But these issues are usually in such books because 1400 years ago prophet talked about these things. The same is true for sex. But some anti-khomeini guys want to abuse it and say that khomeini was himself such a guy. If you do not believe in me see this wikipedia page which is initiated by User:CtlFn who also initiated Tahrirolvasyleh. The person in the picture is NOT khomeini ! But he is insisting that he is khomeini ! For any Iranian this is clear that the guy in the picture is not khomeini. It is so obvious. This is the story. But CltFn neither proves his claim that the guy in the picture is Khomeini , nor accepts what Iranian wikipedians are saying. If one brings this picture to iran and shows it to a random Iranian and insists that this is a picture of khomeini, people may think the guy is an idiot. --Mitso Bel10:27, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - Whenever goes CltFn goes the controversy. I've never been against the articles in which she/he introduces her/his very extremist views which most of the time produce a good deal of resistance from most wikipedians. However, the article as it is now is encyclopaedic and POV free. Keep up the good work guys. -- Szvest 16:34, 11 March 2006 (UTC) Wiki me up™[reply]
- Me have extremist views? Not really , try informed views. --CltFn 20:52, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep As even the nominator says keep, and most people who know about the subject are saying the book does exist, I'm saying keep too. Clearly it's going to need some colloborative work to get it to NPOV (should such colloboration between polar opposites of opinion be possible). The article's changing in tone every time I see it, it started out as sensationalist, now if anything it seems neutered :) I'm impressed by the way that this debate has so far not devolved into a slanging match, which to be honest I thought it would, so let's keep it that way. --kingboyk 22:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.