Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2025 July 14

Language desk
< July 13	<< Jun | July | Aug >>	Current desk >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

July 14

Is it English? Wikipedia: "there are D dimensions to the thermodynamic space".

That sentence was added to Wikipedia, On 23 November 2005, in this version, and it's still there!

I suspect, that it's not English, and that the user who added it to Wikipedia meant: "there are D dimensions attributed to the thermodynamic space", or "the thermodynamic space has D dimensions", but since I'm not expert in Thermodynamics I don't want to change the syntax of a sentence in thermodynamics, before I receive a second opinion. 147.235.209.20 (talk) 09:17, 13 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

In ordinary speech we say that space has three dimensions, while a topologist would say that the dimension of space is three (so in maths speak, space has one dimension, which is three). So there is something funny about how the term dimension is used.

Further on in the article Thermodynamic potential the text has, "In all, if the thermodynamic space is D dimensions, then there will be D equations for each potential, resulting in a total of D 2^D equations of state because 2^D thermodynamic potentials exist." This was added in 2023 by another user. It is badder English than the other sentence.

In both cases, I feel it is an issue that the term thermodynamic space is not defined or explained, and neither is the term species. (The singular specie is also used, which I think is an incorrect back-formation.) In our article Thermodynamic activity the term links to Chemical species, and Component (thermodynamics) uses the full term chemical species. It seems to me – but I'm not sure – that D is the number of species – whatever that means – so that the use of the term thermodynamic space can be eliminated.

Perhaps the thread should be moved to the science section of the reference desk.  ​‑‑Lambiam 09:53, 13 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Speaking as a former science textbook editor, I don't see any problem with the sentence, which in full is

"If there are D dimensions to the thermodynamic space, then there are 2D unique thermodynamic potentials."

The term 'dimension' can refer not only to spacial dimensions (a recent narrowing of the word's application), but to any measurable property of something: my height is one of my dimensions, but so is my fat content, for example.

"Thermodynamic space" is the concept under discussion at this point, meaning everything to do with the possible thermodynamic properties of something. The actual number of its different thermodynamic-relevant properties, or 'dimensions', one could consider are (so far in the argument) uncounted, and the passage is proposing that if we consider D of them (which may not be all those possible) then there are 2D of a certain sort of relationship between those. In the context of defining D dimensions, saying there are D dimensions to the space is correct (if a little old-fashioned) English: adding a verb such as attributed would introduce an implication of intentionality that may not be appropriate.

The grammar here used may reflect the ultimately underlying sources of the concepts, given that thermodynamics had become highly developed by the 19th century.

I might also observe that formal English would hold "badder English" to be grammatically incorrect; "worse English" is the more usually acceptable form. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.5.172.125 (talk) 04:34, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The phrasing "badder English" was likely a joke, though... 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:50, 15 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

American pronunciation of peanut

Las night I saw two American TV shows where speakers pronounced peanut as if the second vowel sound, the u, didn't exist. Here in Australia we say two distinct syllables, pea and nut, so the second syllable rhymes with cut. The American version seems to be pea-nt, as if the u doesn't exist. Is this universal in the US, and how did it come about? Does it apply to peanut butter? Does it apply to the comic strip Peanuts? HiLo48 (talk) 03:51, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

American English speaker here, I pronounce the u (although the degree to which the actual vowel sound matches that of cut may vary), and everyone I know does the same. Just out of curiosity do you have any clips demonstrating the aforementioned missing vowel? I'm curious if it's just a byproduct of the vowel being clipped while speaking quickly. GalacticShoe (talk) 04:02, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

No, this doesn't ring a bell, and my mom was from the South, where you might expect this sort of thing. Could be a New England thing maybe? Not sure why but it just strikes me that way. The GA pronunciation is /ˈpiː.nʌt/. --Trovatore (talk) 04:05, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

The two shows were American Pickers, based in Iowa, and American Restoration , from Las Vegas. HiLo48 (talk) 04:14, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo48, I suspect that people on these shows were trying to parody an ignorant, "hillbilly" accent for humorous effect. Based on 73 years of experience, I feel confident in saying saying that over 99.9% of Americans pronounce peanut just like you do. Cullen328 (talk) 04:33, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I got no feeling that parody was intended. (Maybe hat's another linguistic/cultural problem.) HiLo48 (talk) 04:39, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Does that mean 99.9% of Americans pronounce peanut like /ˈpi.nɐt/?  ​‑‑Lambiam 05:07, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea, but to this maths (not math) teacher, pi is the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. I DID ask is this universal in the US? HiLo48 (talk) 06:23, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How do you pronounce peanut? Do you say /ˈpi.nɐt/, /ˈpi.nʌt/, /ˈpiː.nɐt/ or /ˈpiː.nʌt/, or still something else?  ​‑‑Lambiam 08:56, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I can't do those phonetic things, but as I wrote at the beginning "Here in Australia we say two distinct syllables, pea and nut, so the second syllable rhymes with cut." HiLo48 (talk) 10:07, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

I see wikt:cut has American and Australian audio samples available for comparison. There's also one at wikt:peanut, FWIW.  Card Zero  (talk) 11:15, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

That wikt:peanut sample is part way towards what I'm talking about. The second vowel sound is very brief. HiLo48 (talk) 00:15, 15 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

To my American ears, the audio sample at wikt:peanut still sounds like there's a full vowel (not a reduced one) in the second syllable. It's only slightly shorter than the vowel heard at wikt:nut (produced by the same speaker), and still not a schwa the way the unstressed vowel heard at wikt:genus is. —Mahāgaja · talk 12:46, 15 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

"Brassiere" vs. "brasserie"

For the love of God, why are these words so similar??? Lizardcreator (talk) 14:27, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Note the word origins:[1] and [2]. Or maybe because God loves boobs and beer ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:17, 14 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Judging from Wiktionary, it seems as in Old French, "brace", depending on the root word, could mean both "arm" and "malt". The extensions -iere and -erie are otherwise related, -iere is the feminine form of -ier (akin to English -er), and -(i)erie is -ier extended with a nominal -ie. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:45, 15 July 2025 (UTC)[reply]