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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arc Manor

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:34, 19 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

Arc Manor

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Arc Manor (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Clear COI. User who created this article has been attempting to create it since 2007. Significant coverage is clearly lacking, and there doesn't seem to be any indication of notability. Article also contains promotional content. Fails WP:NCORP. CycloneYoris talk! 21:31, 11 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]

How is this company any less notable then all the ones already listed? For cryin out loud, Arc Manor amongst other notable works, a number of which have won major awards, Arc Manor shocked the SF community by getting rights to and publishing Robert A. Heinlein's last published work. If you are unfamiliar with Heinlein, please look up the article on Heinlein on Wikipedia itself (and a number of books we publish have their own articles, not authors, specific.
But in the end, why do you think all the other 'small presses' already listed on Wikipedia deserve to be on (most of them much less significant than Arc Manor) and Arc Manor does not. 108.48.179.23 (talk) 21:39, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Observation: Just want to note that this IP is likely the same person as the author (and who's editing while logged out). @Shahidm: Please be aware that doing so violates WP:SOCK, and you should only participate here while using your account. CycloneYoris talk! 22:55, 12 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry. I was not aware I had been logged in. I have never tried to hide my identity. And posted my connection as soon as I the question came up. Shahidm (talk) 13:23, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
108.48.179.23, forgive me for my directness, but it seems that you are mostly here to edit about topics related to Shahid Mahmud and their various projects. Please disclose the connection. Netherzone (talk) 01:15, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
<forgive me for my directness, but it seems that you are mostly here to edit about topics related to Shahid Mahmud and their various projects. Please disclose the connection.> My name is Shahid Mahmud. And I manage Arc Manor. Again, my apologies, I have tried to disclose this many times, but last time it seems like I was logged out. I am not that that familiar with this platform. Shahidm (talk) 13:26, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
But I would dispute that the article is about me, we can even remove my name, and it makes no difference to the article. The article is about one of the most influential small presses in speculative fiction in the the US. It has been profiled in magazines like Publishers Weekly (link in the article) which is one of the most prestigious publications about the book industry in the world. The Guardian Newspaper from the UK (again, a MAJOR) UK Newspaper, established in 1821) wrote a whole article about just one book we were publishing (not a review, an article). Heck even the George R.R. Martin talked about this small press (he is the author who created The Game of Thrones). Anyway, I will list the reasons I think we should be included in the Wikipedia. btw, no need to apologize for being direct. It is the best approach :) Shahidm (talk) 13:32, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The company probably is notable, but the lack of sourcing isn't helpful Oaktree b (talk) 00:50, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
<Significant coverage is clearly lacking> Article from The Guardian newspaper (which is a premier UK newspaper established in 1821) < https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/08/unseen-robert-a-heinlein-novel-reworks-awful-the-number-of-the-beast >. Publishers Weekly is arguably THE most influential periodical about the book industry in the world (US based, established 1872) and they profiled the company < https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/89590-d-c-spotlight-an-eclectic-publishing-region.html >. George R.R. Martin, one name Time magazines 100 most influential people in the world (he is the creator of The Game of Thrones) talked about the magazine Arc Manor published < https://grrm.livejournal.com/488143.html > These do NOT include all the announcements made by major institutions (like the World Fantasy Award, the Hugo Award and the Nebula Award, the MOST prestigious awards in speculative fiction in the US) about ARc Manor becuase we keep getting nominated for awards. This is probably significantly more coverage than 99.9% of the presses covered by Wikipedia < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Small_press_publishing_companies > Shahidm (talk) 13:44, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
@Shahidm, please read WP:NCORP - wikipedia's guidelines for notable businesses, organizations and corporations is rather strict. The sources need to be about the Arc Manor press itself, not about you or what you have to say about it. While it's great that George RR Martin liked a magazine Arc Manor published, the live journal citation is not usable (it's flagged as an unreliable source because it's user-submitted content. Netherzone (talk) 14:11, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The Guardian article is about Heinlein's book, and while it does quote you talking about the book, the article says nothing about Arc Manor Press itself. The Publisher's Weekly piece is better, but not enough to pass NCORP; additionally all four criteria of NCORP must be met. Presses or publishing houses do not have inherent notability. Netherzone (talk) 14:18, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
I don't get it. Virtually none of the companies that are small presses listed on Wikipedia qualify based on the criteria you listed <<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Small_press_publishing_companies>>. Why is Arc Manor, which has more coverage than any of these listed being singled out? Shahidm (talk) 14:32, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Good People of Wikipedia. I am the person who wrote the article and appreciate the opportunity to respond to criticism and to defend it.
Here is why I think we are a very relevant press.
1. We would reside under the following Wikipedia category: < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Small_press_publishing_companies >. Small presses, almost by definition, will not get major media coverage (and you can check ANY of the presses listed in the category since they are small by definition).
2. Arc Manor actually has had coverage by MAJOR media, including the Guardian Newspaper in the UK (a major newspaper more than 200 years old) < https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/feb/08/unseen-robert-a-heinlein-novel-reworks-awful-the-number-of-the-beast >, Publishers Weekly, the most prestigious publication in the English language world about books (about 150 years old) < https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/89590-d-c-spotlight-an-eclectic-publishing-region.html > and Tordotcom (renamed Reactor, one of the most visited SF literature sites in the US) < https://reactormag.com/long-lost-treasure-the-pursuit-of-the-pankera-vs-the-number-of-the-beast-by-robert-a-heinlein/ >. Very few (if any) of the presses listed in this category have even this much coverage.
3. Many of the books we publish have their won pages on Wikipedia. For example, we published Salamis < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salamis_(novel) >, the Number of the Beast and The Pursuit of the Pankera (sister novels, Beast is reprinted by us, Pursuit is an original publication), co-publication with Jembefola Press of < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year%27s_Best_African_Speculative_Fiction> and others like The Long Tomorrow, Lest Darkness Fall, etc. It is ironic that so many our individual products are considered worthy, but the company that published these may not :)
4. A lot of our authors are listed as significant authors by Wikipedia < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_A._Heinlein > < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Turtledove > < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercedes_Lackey > < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_J._Sawyer > < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Resnick >. There are many others, but these illustrate the point. Again, very few of the publishers deemed appropriate by Wikipedia staff in the small press category would have such a list.
5. Publication of The Pursuit of the Pankera. Robert A. Heinlein is one of the most significant science fiction authors, ever, in the world (just ask ANYONE with any knowledge of SF of read his entry on Wikipedia. He died more than 20 years ago. His estate rediscovered a novel which had been lost (the manuscript) and we won the exclusive right to publish it. Just this one publication makes us more significant than nearly any other small press listed in science fiction and fantasy.
6. We were significant enough to come to the notice of George R.R. Martin (a Time magazine 100 most influential people in the world and the creator of the Game of Thrones. < https://grrm.livejournal.com/488143.html >
7. We keep getting nominated for MAJOR awards. We have won < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebula_Award >, < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Fantasy_Award > the Franklin award <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_Book_Publishers_Association> and have multiple nominations for the Hugo < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Award > and the Prometheus < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheus_Award >. Also a number of more minor awards. In 2025 one of our books was nominated for the Nebula for best novel (only the 3rd time in the last decade that a small press has been nominated for this category), and another book for the Prometheus.
8. We co-sponsor the Mike Resnick Memorial Award with Dragon Con. Dragon Con is one of the largest annual convention of its type in the US < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Con >
I realize that we have no 'right' to be on Wikipedia, but given that we are significantly more 'notable' than nearly all of the multitude of small presses already accepted, and even have coverage in major media (a very rare accomplishment for a small press) and are acknowledged as such in the industry (the proof is the number of awards we have won or are nominated for...these are THE MOST prestigious awards in the industry, like the Oscars in the SF and Fantasy book world), I do believe we have a strong case to be listed.
Thank you, and Good Day.
Shahid Mahmud Shahidm (talk) 14:32, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
<while it does quote you talking about the book, the article says nothing about Arc Manor Press > I'm being quoted as a manager of Arc Manor :)
No one really cares about me in any other capacity, lol...I'm not a significant person by any means. The article does, very clearly, imply the importance of the book in the genre and we did get the rights to it. There was another article by a trade magazine (and I can't find the link, alas) that basically said how Arc Manor shocked the SF publishing industry by winning the rights to this historically extremely significant book :) 108.48.179.23 (talk) 15:14, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please log in. Netherzone (talk) 17:44, 13 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: I can only find primary sources, social media or books they've published, nothing about the company. Oaktree b (talk) 00:49, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete Above, the article editor has listed two good sources : The Guardian, and Publishers Weekly. Those are not enough to source the entire article, and unless other sources are found this does not meet notability standards. If I were the publisher, the first thing I would do would be to make sure that wherever my books are listed they give a full bibliographic citation that includes: place of publication, the publisher's name, date, ISBN. None of the books listed on the Mike Resnick page are complete citations. (I will try to get to some, no promises.) That will mean that everyone visiting those pages will see the publisher's name. Next, there is the COI issue. It's not that COI is forbidden, it's that there are rules to follow when one has such an interest. To whit:
  • you are strongly discouraged from editing affected articles directly;
  • you may propose changes on talk pages (by using the {{edit COI}} template), so that they can be peer-reviewed; (From WP:COI)
Based on this you should not be editing this article, but you should only be proposing edits on the talk page of the article. Other editors interested in the same topic can make those changes, but simply asking friends and colleagues to do your editing for you is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. Admittedly this means that "small" topics might not be included in Wikipedia. Lamona (talk) 18:09, 15 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you. I will not edit anything here then and leave the articles for others.
BUT no one has yet answered my question, why are all the small presses in this category on Wikipedia <<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Small_press_publishing_companies>> Ok, but not Arc Manor. Most (if not all) already listed have less coverage or notable books than Arc Manor? I'm guessing that consistency is something that Wikipedia strives for? 108.48.179.23 (talk) 13:25, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
That's covered in WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. If those small presses can demonstrate their notability through reliable sources, then those articles will remain. If not, they, too, might be suggested for deletion at some future time. What matters is proof of notability. Lamona (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
Please log in. You are using two different accounts that are operated by the same person in this AfD. This is not helpful to the editors here, and there are already warnings on the talk pages of the logged in account and the IP account. Netherzone (talk) 20:08, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
We don't really care what they publish, it's the available sourcing that dictates if the article is kept. Bring us decent sources about the company and it's good. Oaktree b (talk) 20:29, 16 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
By definition companies become famous for what they produce, not what they really do. People and companies are not the same. People do things, companies produce things (with some exceptions, of course). If a publisher, regardless of their size, published a new version of The Lords of the Rings or the The Game of Thrones then they would be, in the publishing world, more relevant than 99% of the publishers listed here. You can not dissociate what a company makes, or what a publisher publishes from the company or publisher. That IS, for most companies, their sole claim to relevance. If a company produces 'notable' products, particularly on a consistent basis, it makes no sense to state that the company producing those notable product is not considered notable.
As for comparisons, I'm not just comparing to a particular company, I'm comparing Arc Manor to ANY company listed in the the following category of companies in < https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English-language_small_presses > Why carry a category where none of the companies (or virtually none) qualify by the standards you have just indicated (don't take my word for it, do a random test of any ten companies listed in that category)?
Given the way Wikipedia grew, I'm guess these inconsistencies are bound to happen BUT, I guess discussions like these (regardless of whether Arc Manor gets to live here or not), is what may help improve it? :)
Cheers...fascinating insight into how Wikipedia works! Shahidm (talk) 14:17, 17 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I'm putting some effort into the article which had some style issues. I'm also trying to add in the few references I've found. In terms of NCORP, I am thinking that having "products" win awards and get reviews is the only thing that fits. Publishers aren't manufacturers nor are they inventors of products. Either they can never be considered for NCORP or we need to figure out how they fit in. I'm going on the assumption that awards should do it. Lamona (talk) 15:41, 18 June 2025 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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