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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Makkah learning center

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. All articles need at least the possibility reliable sourcing per policy. --Leivick (talk) 23:12, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Makkah Learning Center

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Makkah Learning Center (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Non-notable religious organization. Fails WP:ORG, WP:N. Ragib (talk) 16:29, 3 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Davewild (talk) 18:44, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note - this is not really a school, despite the claim made in the page. Rather, per their website, they have *future plans* for a school. It seems to be a religious studies group, or prayer circle. --Ragib (talk) 21:49, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note This is the definition from the web site, "Makkah Learning Center is an educational project of Islamic Society of Annapolis, a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt non-profit organization in Annapolis, Maryland." it is not prayer circle, it is non-profit organization!--Puttyschool (talk) 19:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that it can help people learn more about Islam doesn't help establish notability according to Wikipedia's technical definition. I can find no mention of it on Google in any books, news stories, or other sites that might qualify as reliable sources. If you know of such sources, please feel free to add them. Olaf Davis | Talk 22:41, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Most religious centers in Wiki cannot establish notability according to Wikipedia's technical definition, about Google [1] it is listed in many Islamic Sites, Sorry my query returns about 9700 results, I don’t know how to write a query that return less results. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Puttyschool (talk • contribs) 13:00, 12 August 2008Sorry--Puttyschool (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First of all putting quotes round the name ([1]) cuts out lots of irrelevant hits which happen to contain all three words. There are still a couple of hundred, but most of them appear to be entries in directories, posts on forums or blogs and the like (see WP:SPS for why those don't count as reliable sources). The closest thing to coverage in a reliable source I found was this, but it just mentions the centre in passing as the venue of an event, so that doesn't constitute "significant coverage". I haven't read all 200 search results so if you've found one that does meet those criteria please feel free to mention it - but the number of Google hits itself does not confer notability.
Finally, it's true that there are many Wikipedia articles about things which don't appear to deserve one, but that's an argument for deleting those articles and not for creating other similar ones: see WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Olaf Davis | Talk 13:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, you put a good base point for negotiations, there is a lot of similar pages that need delete, but according to the fact the Muslims are over than One billion and four hundred millions, their articles must be at the end of the deletion list, just above the Christian deletion list, but not on the top of the list. At the same time Christianity is the nearest religion to Islam, then this article must be compared with similar articles about Christian Education Centers.
Also without being biased, I think what makes this center notable is how many similar center in USA for teaching Islamic Religion, and what is the % of the Muslim population in USA?--Puttyschool (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am sorry to say that the argument about Muslim-articles vs Christian-articles is pure nonsense. What is being questioned here is the notability of *this* organization, and you should either prove notability or stop making comments along religious lines. Nobody's going to take your word for the organization's notability unless you show some solid proof from reliable sources. --Ragib (talk) 18:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I’m taking a neutral point of view; I'm not making comments along religious lines, or a religious, I'm basing on current statics and facts, and it is very clear that my comment is based on a previous comment, Wikipedia is mine as yours--Puttyschool (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, so far, your argument for keeping the article is simply along religious lines. Please provide sources/references to validate WP:N (and not just hand-waving, religion-baiting). --Ragib (talk) 19:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I’m using logic, not waving hands. Are you forcing me to give wiki examples? My first comment at top of page start from the beginning of the line and it is very clear, another I'm far away from Annapolis, I was searching the deletion log, when I read this comment "Article doesn't even suggest why it might be notable", I was attracted to the subject. How it comes it is notable for about Billion and half. Beside this both of us knows that the use of reliable sources Is flexible!--Puttyschool (talk) 20:17, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are NOT using logic here. (let alone "statistics"!!) You were asked to provide *proof of notability* of *this organization*. In reply, you claim that this article, in your personal opinion, should be here, considering the number of adherents to a particular religion. That's not a logical statement. Your personal belief does not establish the notability of any organization. Also, you are not asked to provide notability of any religion, rather we are discussing the notability of one particular organization. And you don't even have *any* sources giving significant coverage on the organization. --Ragib (talk) 20:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, notable means something important to a BIG number of peoples. You are form Bangladesh, I checked your contributions most are Related to what we can call Islamic Articles, I’m requesting validating your neutral point of view.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Puttyschool (talk • contribs)
For what notability means in *Wikipedia*, please refer to WP:N. For information on what verifiability means in *wikipedia*, please refer to WP:V. As for your stalking behavior, please refer to WP:NPA and WP:STALK. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 20:50, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) No, it doesn't, not here. Here, notability means it meets the notability criteria spelled out for it, namely WP:ORG and WP:N, neither of which this meets. Also, I suggest you read WP:CIVIL as we do not tolerate personal attacks on other editors, including unfounded accusations of basis. You have already shown you are far from neutral on this topic, so I strongly urge you to stop attacking every commenting editor and sit back and let the process take its course.-- AnmaFinotera (talk · contribs) 20:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(undent)Ok, there are accusations of bias and stalking going on here, both of which are pretty serious. Let's try and put our concerns about other editors aside and focus on the article at hand: the bottom line is that to qualify for an article in Wikipedia, a topic has to establish notability by Wikipedia's rules. That does not include 'important to a big number of people', but it does include WP:RS which really is non-negotiable. Olaf Davis | Talk 21:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Now I’m confused, your first comment was It meet A7, Now you suggest WP:RS, but I think what User:AnmaFinotera Suggested WP:ORG and WP:N are more appropriate and may not require WP:RS
    about 'important to a big number of people', check this from the guides Notable means "worthy of being noted" or "attracting notice." is this can be for one person only, I was talking about billions not millions
    Another small comment, you are the one who established the base of this discussion! then all of us(User:Olaf Davis, User:Ragib, and User:Puttyschool must leave it to other editors.--Puttyschool (talk) 22:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sigh ... before making any further comments, I suggest that you read the recommended policies. Especially WP:V, WP:N, WP:RS. That way, you won't have confusions about the need for reliable, verifiable sources to establish notability of a subject. That you claim *this* organization is important for all 1.5 billions of people is patently false. --Ragib (talk) 23:06, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My comment was very clear, check top of page. You cannot reference WP:V hear, USA registration documents makes it verifiable. Not the organization, the information itself is important, then what makes both of us interested about it. About the 1.5 billions now they are increased by one, you. Best Regards--Puttyschool (talk) 23:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, you claim the organization is notable and is important to 1.5 billion people. I challenged you to prove this. That's verifiability. You have to come up with info from reliable sources. That's WP:RS. And with info from reliable sources, you have to satisfy notability as an organization as specified in WP:N. I somehow feel you are missing this very simple request. :( . Anyway, continuing this dialogue is meaningless unless you read the policies and come up with some reliable sources that establish notability. Till then, I won't respond to the same old rhetoric any further. Thanks. --Ragib (talk) 23:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I have a number of responses, Puttyschool.
  1. An article can easily qualify for speedy deletion (in this case, A7) and fail notability at the same time. A great many which are deleted every day do.
  2. You make repeated reference to 1.5 billion people and the importance of the organisation. To quote from WP:N: "Notability is distinct from 'fame,' 'importance,' or 'popularity'".
  3. You said "WP:ORG and WP:N are more appropriate and may not require WP:RS". Both of those policies refer to reliable sources as a requirement for establishing notability. There is no article to which WP:RS does not apply: I can't say that any more clearly.
  4. You said "Not the organization, the information itself is important". In that case, shouldn't we have an article about the information and not the organisation? Since the information they claim to propagate is Islam, about which we have many, many articles, it would seem that we've achieved that. We don't need an article about every group or person who talks about Islam just because Islam itself is notable.
  5. You said "all of us(User:Olaf Davis, User:Ragib, and User:Puttyschool must leave it to other editors". I really don't understand what you're saying here.
I'm afraid I must agree with Ragib: it seems as though you need to spend some time re-reading WP:N, WP:RS and WP:ORG because at the moment you're arguing from several points which, while not ridiculous, are not based on Wikipedia policy. Such arguments are likely to be ignored by the admin who closes this discussion. I suggest you do that before adding more to this discussion. Olaf Davis | Talk 17:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, but you didn't notice that it was talking about a different "proposed" high school by the same name, not the current organization. Wikipedia is not a place for future, proposed organizations. Besides, this doesn't establish notability at all. --Ragib (talk) 20:25, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
may be, same name, same place, same area, same persons wow.--Puttyschool (talk) 20:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, wikipedia is not a crystal ball. The article is, first of all, from a non reliable source, and is talking about a proposed high school, which according to this, is yet to exist. Even then, such trivial mention happens everyday and does not make a non-notable, not-yet built entity notable. --Ragib (talk) 20:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Puttyschool, all articles on Wikipedia are required to meet notability guidelines - meaning that article topics should be notable. Notability is proven by non-trivial coverage or mention in third party reliable sources, because it's these sources we will use to construct the article itself. Such sources can be reports in the local newspaper, or internet publications by a reputed organisation for example. If the learning center is notable, then it's bound to have such coverage - you just need to find it. If it's only been opened recently, then you might just have to wait a while before sufficient coverage is obtained. This shouldn't be about "Muslim vs. Christian articles", numerous articles are deleted daily irrespective of their slant. ITAQALLAH 17:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please follow the history of the discussions, I said that WP:ORG Is more appropriate and this may not require WP:RS, WP:ORG may require only Secondary_source.
Also I said that I followed this discussion as I glanced this comment "Article doesn't even suggest why it might be notable", I checked the article found a list of references, I assumed that listed references is what establish its notability. so I added my comment. Other comments are responses to previous comments assuming references establish notability, and other users think this is something un-notable, even with references, so I build similar relations using wiki pages, I comapred "Muslim vs. Christian articles" as I know both religions share a big set of similarities, I was not comparing against religious bases, only statics; scientific comparisons, not more.
For other new comments in this page, I can take the main definition as it and put it hear, not to select part of the explanation To enforce my point of view, the rest of the section is Please consider notable and demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education
Another point I Left this discussion, so If anyone want to discuss with me anymore, he can use my talk page, now we left the main subject, and this will confuse other editors--Puttyschool (talk) 19:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ORG does require reliable sources: "Such sources must be reliable". Olaf Davis | Talk 21:02, 13 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ "Google Search for Makkah Learning Center".
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